Conference trucks::football;1

    Not only is it stupid but it is totally in flagrant breach of European
    Community law on free movement of labour and employment. The FL has
    demonstrated complete spinelessness in not taking the UEFA to the
    European Court.
    
    Peter 

    Jamie,
    
    Welsh players are 'foreign' when playing in England hence Rush and
    Saunders will be part of Liverpool's allocation of 4, Blackmore and 
    Hughes part of Man U's 4.
    
    The rule also applies in reverse since last season Wrexham had to leave 
    out some English players when playing in the ECWC and I believe Swansea 
    will have to do the same against Monaco this week.
    
    Of course the same rule applies to Scotland and for the second (or
    third?) successive season Rangers will be juggling their line-up
    again.
    
    Regards,
    
    Andrew.D.Wicks

    
    The basic stupidity lies in the fact that one nation is allowed to
    compete with four national teams and four different sets of entries in
    the UEFA tournaments. Also the far too liberal rules on which nation a
    certain player should belong to; It seems that a player can
    declare for Ireland just because his mother once went to a Thin
    Lizzy concert. Maybe the EC should make a ruling on that as well?
    
    On the other hand, once the European Union is implemented, the EC might
    argue argue that any competition between European nations becomes
    obsolete, and that Europe should field a team in the World Cup. 
    
    I say let's continue have the Football Authorities rule Football, for
    better or worse.

    Not so much stupid Stefan as hard economic fact. The British
    Associations were the biggest contributors to the FIFA kitty and wrote
    the rules themselves. You may also have noticed that each country
    within the UK operates its own league. But, in any case, this is a
    separate issue. A team, any team, within the Common Market should be
    allowed to field as many players of different CM nationalities as it
    wishes. EC legislation clearly states this.
    
    Peter 

    re: .2
    
    That's what I figured, but as Wales doesn't have a League there are no
    teams in the UEFA and Champions Cups which are purely Welsh. Therefore,
    Welsh players in the Football League should not be counted as foreign
    surely.
    
    Re: .3
    
    Not to put too fine a point on it - we invented international matches,
    the first ever being England Vs Scotland in 1870 something. If the 4
    home FAs want to continue with it (and they surely do) it's up to them.
    In any case it disadvantages us as it is unlikely any of the four will
    ever win anything, whereas with a UK team it'd just be boring because
    we'd win everthing all the time. -)
    
    As far as the base note is concerned, I have no doubt that the whole
    thing was a set up pushed through while the English teams were banned
    and consequently not in a strong position to oppose it. The only teams
    it hurts are the English and Scottish ones. The ruling was also
    proposed and pushed through by the Italian representative in UEFA - one
    way, I suppose, of trying to ensure the Italian teams could still win
    when the English clubs got back. -)

    
    Peter,
    
>    Not so much stupid Stefan as hard economic fact. The British
>    Associations were the biggest contributors to the FIFA kitty and wrote
>    the rules themselves. You may also have noticed that each country
>    within the UK operates its own league. But, in any case, this is a
>    separate issue. 
    
    Of course they wrote the rules themselves! But that was some 50 years
    ago and since everything else is changing these days days why not get
    rid of this obvious anachronism. And it's not a separate issue, since
    the British clubs, with very few exceptions, are the only ones that
    really get affected by this rule. The British clearly have a choice.
    
>    A team, any team, within the Common Market should be
>    allowed to field as many players of different CM nationalities as it
>    wishes. EC legislation clearly states this.
                    
    .3 was an attempt to point out some of the absurd implications of EC
    legislation interfering with UEFA rules. Here's a couple more: 
    
    1) In the world of National and  International Football Associations
    there is a clear distinction between National and Club teams, and
    national leagues. Is this true for the EC laws as well? Certainly not,
    I interpret "any team" as just that. Surely if J�rgen Klinsmann is
    offered � 5M to play for Italy,according to EC legislation he should be
    allowed to do so?  
    
    2) Supposedly the legislation also states that a business may be
    opened and operated anywhere within the Common Market. If Rangers want to 
    join the (English) Football League then they need only complain to
    Brussels and there is no stopping them.
    
    3) UEFA > EC. The Common Market currently has about a dozen members.
    UEFA has 25-30. UEFA's headquarters are situated outside of EC, as are
    the current European Cup holders. If the EC overrules UEFA then this
    can only legally apply within the EC countries, meaning that whereas
    Rangers are allowed to compete with 11 Englishmen when they play Red
    Star at home, they can only field four in the away leg.
    
    Now maybe you'd like to explain just how clear the EC legislation
    really is?
    
    Stefan

    Forgive the ambiguity. "any team" meant any club team. Nationality will
    remain non-transferable, although, if Klinsmann had an Italian
    mother...
    
    Why is it an anachronism? Four countries make up the UK. Are you saying
    that Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales should no longer have
    national teams? 
    
    British clubs are certainly not the only clubs to be affected. The
    ruling has prevented the Italians and Spanish from making their own
    rulings less stringent.
    
    As regards 2), EC legislation allows for exactly this sort of thing,
    which is why top European clubs want to form a European super league to
    pre-empt it.
    
    If the UEFA had the intelligence to look a few years ahead, it would
    realise that the number of countries in the EC is going to increase
    rather than decrease and that it had better get on the right side. But
    given their brilliant administrative talents to date and derelection of
    duty on important occasions, hope hardly springs eternal.
    
    Peter

    re SPERRSON.....
    
    try telling Kevin Moran's sons...born and reared in Manchester,
    that they're not Irish and you'll get a pretty rude reply. All
    Irish people abroad are proud of their culture and tradition
    and are as entitle to play for Ireland as home born players.
    
    *Tiger*

    
    re .10 
    
    (A buffer cock up)
    
    re .8
    
    Proud of being Irish/Italian/Serbo Croat or whatever.
    
    Having pride in one's origins is one thing, calling yourself Irish or
    whatever if you have been born in another country is another. If your
    predecessors have been in another country for generations, then you are
    a national of thet country. The fact that (for example) in Boston, you
    meet Irish, Italian, Poles (but no Americans) is strange. The fact that
    the nerarest most of them have been to their 'native' country is a
    postcard from Dublin speaks for itself.
    
    The Nationality thing is getting silly, 4 'foreign' players allowed per
    team is also daft, but since when have the powers that be ever done
    anything sensible ?
    
    jb. 

    I belive Portuguese (not sure)teams are also affected by the foreigner 
    rule, as Brasilians are not considered foreingners as far as league play 
    is concerned. Either way, I think the rule stinks.  A team should be
    able to field whomever it wants regardless of nationality. Strict
    citinzeship rules should apply only to NATIONAL TEAMS. 
    
    As for no Americans in Boston, you're right. Ask my kids their
    nationality and they'll tell you Portuguese-Irish. Watch out in 94.
    The U.S. team is going to surprise may of you with a team made up
    of players born in Ireland, Mexico, Germany, France and Italy. Maybe
    a couple born in the US as well.
    
    Question:
    
    Since4 my son has an Irish mother and has been to Ireland once, does it
    mean he may some day qualify to play for England?
    
    JC
    
      
    
    
    Since my son has an Irish mother and has been to Ireland once, does it mean he may some
    day qualify to play for England?
    
    

    93.9 deleted.
    
    Please go to other Notesfiles for that kind of comment. Of course, I
    know you were only responding to other replies. But you could have done
    so in more "polite" terms.
    
    Hope you understand-
    JF Mod.

    I read an article a few years back, that UEFA actually support the
    separate entities of Wales, Northern Ireland, Scotland and England
    because this grants them an extra 3 votes in FIFA. With the emergance
    of the Soviet Republics (and presumably entry into UEFA from at least
    5 of them), then I can see that UEFA *might* no longer support that 
    argument. Perhaps the demise of the Soviet Union is also the beginning
    of Great Britain, in the football sphere of things.
    
    Personally, I am undecided, but I *Know* how others will think.
    
    Wayne

    As author of .9 I don't understand quite honestly. I think its
    you who don't understand. Even allowing for our cultural
    differences I would have thought nobody could have deemed it
    offensive.
    
    The beauty of the English language stems from the way things are
    written rather than what is actually written.
    
    I hereby request permission to re-post it.
    

    What was so offensive about .9? I can't believe Dave would have entered
    anything remotely insulting to other nationalities. It's just that he's
    Welsh and you know they have a prediliction for flowery prose.
    
    Anyway, won't somebody answer the question I posed in the base note
    about the Football League being a WElsh and English league and so how
    on earth can Welsh players be deemed foreign?

    
    Since .9 was directed at me and I certainly did not find it offensive
    but rather amusing I strongly support the cause for reposting it.
    
    After all it's only a game.

    The only problem with allowing clubs from any country to sign any
    amount of players of another nationality (EC or Non-EC), would be that
    the richest teams would inevitably monopolise the European trophies.
    
    Although Rangers, Liverpool, Man-U, etc can be considered big spenders,
    they ARE certainly small fish in a big ocean when it comes to the
    expenditure lashed out by the Italians, Spanish, French (Marseilles)
    etc, if these countries could buy who they wanted, with no limits on
    certain nationalities, they would become virtually invincible.......
    there will obviously be exceptions when a team will be able to field a
    side of "local" talent and win the cups, e.g. Red Star, Steau
    Bucharest etc.
    
    Tapie has bought "new" high quality foreigners every season in his
    quest for the European Champions cup, give him freedom to buy anybody and
    I don't doubt he'll eventually win it, considering that he also has
    posession of the best French players around (Frenchmen might argue this).
    
    Rangers have bought success in Scotland, but have done nothing in
    European circles, and are not likely to in the near future, because the
    class of player required to win the European cup is not there, I have a
    sneaky suspicion that Arsenal may find this as well..........however,
    with mega crazy money available, allied to the right to buy anybody, 
    who knows !!!!!
    
    Some will rightly point to Liverpool and Forest successes in the past
    as being done with mostly U.K. players, but I think it's slowly
    changing to the teams with the spending power to buy the best
    foreigners AND the best "locals", e.g. AC Milan with their 3 Dutchmen,
    Inter with their 3 Germans, etc.
    
    Give me the following team for Rangers in the European cup and we might
    not be too far away from winning it :-     -) -) -)
    
                                    Southall
     
                    Bergomi                          Brehme
    
                              Baresi      Kuznetsov (surprise)
    
                    Stojcovic      Hagi       Matthaus       Scifo
    
                          
                               Vialli      Hately (bigger surprise)
    
    
        Subs :- Prosinecki, Voeller, Barnes, Koeman.......and Anton Rogan.
    
    
     Anyway, you get the idea.........hopefully.
    
    
    
                                                         Brian.
    
    

    Thanks for the support gents, especially you Stephan.
    
    Unfortunately I have been informed by the "thought police" that
    the my note (after a complaint) was deemed to be unsuitable
    for viewing in this forum.
    
    And I thought my school days were over. How wrong can a man be.
    
    Anyway... To continue with the topic at hand...

    Hi there!
    
    It's me that complained about the famous note. Perhaps my knowledge of
    English is rudimentary, but "damn" can be offensive, or at least
    unrespectful, can't it? Moreover, if you check an English/Spanish 
    dictionary, the translation into Spanish can be offensive.
    
    Anyway, if everybody and the moderators agree, I have no problem as to 
    reposting the note, though it could have been included with other terms.
    
    Regards
    
    JUANJO

    Well, typical [and very interesting] example of a multi-cultural
    company like Digital.
    
    1. Noter A posts a "flowery" note.
    2. Foreign Noter B reads the note and deems it insulting.
    3. Moderator (also foreigner), reads the note as is. This is exactly
       what any DEC employee can do. He deems it offensive as it is. He is
       no judge of the whole background. He considers the note only.
    4. Moderator deletes note and expects fury.
    5. Moderator gets fury.
    6. 2 noters vote to post note back.
    7. Moderator yields under public pressure.
    8. Moderator leaves it to the Football Notesfile members to discuss
       the case.
    9. Moderator now goes home to watch Auxerre and Monaco in Euro Cups.
    
    See you soon,
    �JF?      
    
    PS/ Noter A mentioned he meant no harm and foreign noter to whom note
    was addressed found the note "amusing". So everybody is having a good
    time except me it seems.

    In reply to the basenoter [  ;)  ], isn't it due to the fact that there
    is a Welsh FA ? The Welsh team has gained access to Europe through the
    the Welsh FA cup, and therefore must contain the majority of Welsh
    players. (At least that is my assumption). I wonder if a Cardiff were
    to win the English F.A. cup if they would have to field 7 Englishmen ?
          
    Regards,
    Wayne.

    True Wayne... Welsh teams generally appear in the Cup Winners cup
    competition. Having a majority of Welsh players is not usually
    a problem these days considering the lowly status of the Welsh
    league teams. It would be no problem at all to filed an all Welsh
    side should, for example, Bangor won it.
    
    But if Chester came out on top ? Oh dear ! Now that would be a bit
    of a brain teaser for FIFA.

    Re .22, .23,
    
    I think there's some misunderstanding here. Note also the issue of
    the Welsh Cup, F.A cup and Welsh teams has been covered extensively
    in the letters page of When Saturday Comes.
    
    .22 If Cardiff, Swansea, Wrexham or any other Welsh club won the F.A Cup
        they would NOT be allowed to enter Europe because the F.A Cup is
        an English F.A competition and only English clubs may be entered.
    
        So if Cardiff beat Arsenal 1-0 in the final (as they did in 1927)
        then it would be Arsenal who entered Europe.
    
    .23 Similarly they would be no problem if Chester won the Welsh cup
        since as an English team they wouldn't be permitted to enter Europe
        instead the team they beat would be entered e.g Bangor. This has
        in fact happened 3 times in the last decade most recently when
        Hereford beat Wrexham.
    
    Hope that clears things up - now if only Cardiff can get past the
    2nd round of the Welsh Cup this year ....
    
    Regards,                   
    
    Andrew.D.Wicks

    This sounds confusing. Now I understand the idea that Welsh teams are
    in the English football league. The League (Rumbelows) Cup is for all
    the teams in the Football League, so Welsh teams would be included. The 
    FA Cup, I always thought, was for every organized team down to local 
    amateur clubs in *England*, so Welsh teams would play in the Welsh Cup 
    equivalent, right? Places in the ECWC are for the FA Cup winners, not 
    League Cup (otherwise Sheffield Wednesday would be in). So how could a
    Welsh team win the English FA Cup and an English team win the Welsh
    Cup?? Either I've made a few too many assumptions or this doesn't make 
    too much sense....
    
    Tom

>   in the English football league. The League (Rumbelows) Cup is for all
>   the teams in the Football League, so Welsh teams would be included. The 
>   FA Cup, I always thought, was for every organized team down to local 
>   amateur clubs in *England*, so Welsh teams would play in the Welsh Cup 
>   equivalent, right? Places in the ECWC are for the FA Cup winners, not 
>   League Cup (otherwise Sheffield Wednesday would be in). So how could a
 

Welsh Clubs do play in the FA Cup, as .24 says Cardiff won it in 1927.

Some English Clubs (Hereford and Chester for example which boarder Wales)
play in the Welsh cup.  Its just an odd situation that Wales has a cup but
not a leage (its part of the Football League).

Dont know about Berwick though.

    Tom,
    
    My you are confused - I don't know how much simpler I can put it.
    Maybe I can explain it over a beer sometime?
    
    Welsh-based teams can play in AND win both the F.A and Rumbelows but
    CANNOT enter Europe as they are not English. 
    
    Only 3 Welsh teams enter the Rumbelows, some Welsh sides can enter
    the F.A Cup if the play in a league organised by England e.g
    Cardiff, Swansea, Wrexham (from Div 3 and 4), Merthyr (Vauxhall) 
    Newport (Beazer) etc
    ...
    
    All sides based in Wales enter the Welsh Cup, even if they play in an
    English league.
    
    English teams (about 6 - only 2 or 3 of which are league sides) can play 
    in the Welsh Cup AND win it but CANNOT enter Europe as they are not Welsh.
    (Hereford, Chester, Shrewsbury, Kidderminster, Worcester  ...)
    
    So Cardiff enter tons of competitions but never get passed the first
    round of any of them because they are CRAP.
    
    Simple isn't it - Now if Berwick won the Welsh Cup ... ????
    
    Regards,
    
    Andrew.D.Wicks
                     

    Strictly speaking, Monaco should have fielded 7 Monegasque players last
    night in Swansea. Monaco has the same legal status as Wales - it's a
    principality and has the same judicial relationship to France as Wales
    has to the United Kingdom.
    
    Prince Rainier's probably a bit past it now, but young Albert his
    son plays tennis with Borg...

Re -1

Does Monaco really have an own national team and FA?
If not that's completely different from the Welsh - UK item.

Why are you all complaining? On one hand everybody wants his own national team 
and FA and on the other you are complaining that you can't field more than 
seven players of the respective FA.

What's wrong with that?

G�nter

    I think this subject will be a better topic as the Euro matches
    progress.
    If the English teams fair badly without their so called foreigners then
    I think we will hear a bit of a rumble from the English F.A. A lot of
    the so called super league teams need the Euro money to compete. I
    think that the English teams will fair badly without the Scottish grit
    the Welsh guile and the Irish pride to motivate the teams.
    
    Stephen
    
    p.s. This should get things moving.
    

    re .27
    
    OK Andrew, that's enough outa you....An ye kin nae dispute thet! 
    
    Trying to confuse me with any more of this stuff about teams in England 
    just over the border playing for the Welsh Cup...You sound like John 
    Cleese in "Monty Python's Meaning of Life," when he's explaining to the 
    schoolboys about "putting their clothes on the second peg, only if your 
    younger brother is with you, but not if you are planning on getting your 
    hair cut, but if you are getting your hair cut, and you have an OLDER 
    brother but no younger brother..." 
    
    Tom

    The Football League might not BE, if the FA use their strong arm
    tactics which they have threatened to do if they don't get their way.
    Could be a boring winter with no soccer ??
    
    
    Stephen
    

    
    	The 4 'foreign' players UEFA limit does not overpass the EC laws.
    
        The limitation is about the players on the field (or the bench),
     not on the players HIRED and payed by the clubs.
     One club can have 15 foreigners if needed, but only 4 playing at the
     same time.
    
     Pierre-Yves
    

    
    I actually agree with the 'foriegner' rule, even although I can spell
    it.  Sure it affects liverpool and rangers more, but perhaps it might
    encourage the big money clubs to look for and promote the use of local
    talent, rather that buy all the big names going.  I personally used to
    get cheesed off ( it was stronger, but I dont want to offend...did .9
    ever re-appear ??) when with Liverpool and Forest winning the Euro cup
    quite often, hearing how wonderful English football was...the fact that
    the clubs were littered with Scots, Welsh and Irish didnt seen to
    matter. So from a parochial, ethnic minority point of view, if we want
    individual representation at both club and country level, we have to
    pay for it...after all this rule has applied for many seasons and
    affected many teams in the past.  Is there or was there a ruling (or
    proposal) that teams could only play 4 foreigners in local leagues eg
    Italian or Spanish League ???  or should I stop smoking this stuff ??
    
    Hazily yours
    Paul the Jock
    

    re -1
    
    That should read...I cant spell foriegner !!
    
    P

    RE TO -2
    
    In Spain 4 foreign players are allowed, but only 3 can be
    simultaneously on the pitch.
    
    JUANJO

    Re -2
    
    To edit your note, there are several ways. The way I do it:
    
    1. Display your note
    2. Notes> extract mynote.txt note 93.34
    3. Notes> del note 93.34. Confirm when prompted to do so (you are
       entitled to delete your own notes)
    4. Quit Notes (or Notes>SPAWN to create a subprocess) and edit your
       note.
    5. Enter Notes again, go to the right topic and do a: REPLY MYNOTE.TXT.
    
    Voila.
    �JF?

    Thanks JF,
    
    Its a problem being a non-tekkie-deccie like me
    
    Paul

    
    Anyone else heard this story ...
    
    "Teams will effectively be able to field only three foreign players
     in European team competitons next season instead of four ... UEFA
     decided in a meeting in New York ... UEFA confirmed the so-called
     "32" rule will come into effect next season"
    
    What is the "32" rule ? Does that mean 3 'foreigners' on the pitch
    at any one time with up to 2 more on the bench ?
    
    Is this legal ? I'm sure this comes under restraint of trade by
    European Community rules. I guess the Italian clubs will suffer
    even more, as will some of the English clubs ...

I believe it is even worse than you think, in that you will
be only allowed three foreign players out of the thirteen.
However I believe this is being looked into, as you have rightly
said it's against the European open door policy for '92.
            Graham.

    But, on the other hand, I also heard that a foreigner who has played
    for a club for 5+ years will not be counted as foreign.

    Bruce Grobbelaar is counted as foreign and hes been with Liverpool
    years!
    Ian.
    

    Do pay attention Ian! We're talking about changes in the 'foreigner'
    rules proposed for next year's competitions. Under these Bruce would be
    counted as non-foreign having been at the club 5+ years. 
    
    That's if he is still at Loonypool and if Loonypool qualify!!!

    ulp!
    sorry, asleep!
    i think that a change in the rules would be a VERY good idea...
    back to days of english domination?
    Ian.
    
    p.s of course we will qualify! we are going to win the UEFA cup!
    :-)
    

    Wait wait here.
    
    What I understand a foreign player will be is a player not originating
    from one of the 12 EEC countries. Foreign would then be Africans, etc.
    
    Also, if the foreign player has been with the club since his under-18
    days he would not be considered a foreigner. Also, a foreigner with
    5+years in the country would be a "national".
    
    That's why you saw a lot of junior signings. In Belgium for example
    they signed a bunch of young Nigerians, Liberians, Ghaneans etc so that
    they be considered "Belgiums".
    
    In any case the story is not over as the so-called "foreign" rule as
    described in previous note is against EEC employment laws. In theory,
    Liverpool could field the team they have today. Marseille could have 5
    British (Britain is one EEC country), 4 Germans, 1 Yugoslav and 1
    Argentinian.
    
    �JF?

    As I understand it, although a club can employ as many foreigners as it
    wants (can afford ?) it can only field a certain number. This will not
    infring any employment rules. This was pointed out in a topic in the
    old conference. 
    
    Unless of course, someone knows different.
    
    Wayne.

    Just an update on what I've now read in the paper.
    Seems the new rule is a 3+2 rule after all.
    What this means is three foreign players plus a possible
    two other "foreign" players who have stayed with the club
    for five or more years.
    			Graham.

    Just noticed that someone had posted the Swindon Town fixture list and
    was wondering if perhaps, someone might be so kind as to post the Sky
    Blues here.  If not the entire list, then just the matches for August
    and September would be of great interest, as there is a possibility
    that I might actually get over there and I would love to get to a
    match.
    
    Cheers,
    
    Steve