Conference thebay::joyoflex

    > means nothing literally, since it is 'may and'.
    
    I don't understand that.
    
    > All you have to do is to  accept it as a way of expressing suggestion
    > or advice.

    I gather from your address that "here" is Japan. I don't think I agree
    with your English program's assessment.

    To me, "might as well" is simply a short form of a longer statement, the
    rest of which can be inferred. It means "might as well <do something> as
    not <do the same something>". 

    It's a partially implied comparison between the result of performing the
    action and the result of not performing the action. The speaker is
    expressing a certain degree of indifference to the result, but at the same
    time favoring the action. He may not be particularly eager to perform the
    action, but at least he doesn't perceive himself as becoming any worse off
    as a result of it. Frequently, the expression is used when there is an
    inevitable result and the timing of the action is the only question. "Might
    as well <do something> now as not <do the same something> until later."

    The expression, when heard by itself, is less a suggestion than a response
    to a suggestion. Someone has to indicate what the something to be done is.
    It implies that the person responding consents to the suggestion, without
    reservation, but also without much enthusiasm. 

    For example, if we're driving around in a car, and we know that we have
    to go shopping for food sometime today, you could say "Might as well
    stop at the store while we're out." You could also ask, "Should we stop
    at the store while we're out?" and I would respond, "Might as well",
    indicating that I approve of the practicality of your suggestion, but
    shopping is not a chore that I'm especially eager to perform. 

    I think there's a certain mild hint of resignation to the expression.

    John

That was explained by a native speaker from the US who was one of key 
members of the program. ;-)   I might've got it wrong, though.  

Let me explain a little more - the story in the program went like this: 
an employee of a company had been doing something wrong with his account. 
His manager was notified of the incidents and talked with him face to face. 
The manager pointed out a couple of evidences while he (the employee) was 
trying to deny them.  (if I remember correctly) the manager finally said 
"you might as well come clear about it".


Your examples were very helpful.
thank you.
_Tak

    The phrase "as well" can mean "and" but it can also have its literal
    meaning.  "May as well" means "can equally acceptably" or "can equally
    successfully" and suggests something to do.
    
    "May as well come clean" is an understatement, a cynical one.
    It really means that it would be better to reveal some fact instead
    of just meaning that it would be equally acceptable to reveal some fact.
    The cynicism here is not part of English grammar, but just part of the
    message itself.  (This might be hard to explain in a country where it is
    rarely acceptable to reveal a fact.)
    
    -- Norman Diamond

    "As well as" is a substitute for "and". "As well", by itself, more
    often means "also". 
    
    \dave

>    "As well as" is a substitute for "and". "As well", by itself, more
>    often means "also". 

    I agree to a certain extent. In the sentence "Dave, as well as John,
    expressed interest in this topic", the "as well as" is very close in
    meaning to "and". I detect a slight difference, though, in the sentence
    "Dave and John expressed interest in this topic". I'm not sure I can
    describe what the difference is. It's a matter of emphasis I suppose.
    The former is somehow emphasizing that Dave is the not the only one
    who's interested, while the latter is just simply identifying two of
    the interested parties. Likewise, "Dave expressed interest in this
    topic. John did as well", is somehow drawing attention to the apparently
    important fact that more than one person was interested, or possibly
    that it was an unusual event in the speaker's mind for Dave and John to
    be interested in the same thing, in a way that a simple "and" wouldn't
    convey.

    I can't think of an example where "might as well" or "might as well as"
    could be replaced with "might and". Your separation of the "as well" from
    the "might" does explain the assertion in the base note that I confess I
    couldn't parse at all. 

    Thanks,

    John
    
    PS: I realized while writing this that I've completely forgotten the
    punctuation rules that govern quoting sentences. Can someone please
    refresh my memory or point me to where they may already exist in the
    conference?

    >PS: I realized while writing this that I've completely forgotten the
    >punctuation rules that govern quoting sentences. Can someone please
    >refresh my memory or point me to where they may already exist in the
    >conference?
    
    Maybe in one of the notes contrasting English as well as American?
    Nah, "as well as" doesn't work as well as "and" :-)
    
    Maybe in one of the notes contrasting English and American?
    
    As well, I agree that "as well" means "also" rather than "and" and
    apologize for being led astray by .0.  I've been here too long :-)
    
    -- Norman Diamond

    Somehow my next unseen map skipped over .3.
    
    Dave and John, as well as Norman, expressed an interest in this topic.
    
    ;)
    
    John

Thank you all for the replies.  Perhaps I should have included .2 in the 
basenote in the first place.

To expand my question in the context of "may/might as well do something",
I would like to know about degree of "advice".  If I'm going to give advice 
to someone without carring negative connotation - ie, pushy -, which would 
be more polite way; "be better to do.." or "may/might as well do.."? 

Should I choose other expressions?


>                    (This might be hard to explain in a country where it is
>   rarely acceptable to reveal a fact.)

Um.. full of meaning.. ;-)

_Tak

    While "you might as well" does, in a sense, convey advice, it usually
    also contains a certain implication that the action is inevitable and
    that the suggested course of action will make things easier.  

    For instance, "You might as well tell the truth now" has a definite
    implication that the advisee will tell the truth, either now or later,
    and would likely be interpreted as threatening coercion.

    Likewise, the example about going to the store makes an assumption that
    the purchases must be made sooner or later, and that stopping now will
    be the simplest way to deal with the need.
    
    If you simply want to make a suggestion, forms like "it would be better
    if you..." or, more bluntly, "I think you should..." avoid the extra
    baggage. 
    
    \dave

    
    I agree with Dave that "you may/might as well..." has the connotation
    of being an obvious choice. If you want the advice to be more neutral,
    you might try:
    
    - ...you might try...
    - ...have you considered doing...?
    - ...<option> might also work...
    
    Also consider changing from the active to the passive voice. E.g., "one
    might as well do A as B" vs. "you might as well do B".
    
    I have come to love "less pushy" locutions.  Relationships became so
    much easier when I learned to say "that turns out not to be the case"
    instead of "wrong-o, bonehead."
    
    JP