Conference thebay::joyoflex

I heard something about the Serbian and/or Croatian authorities introducing
words to differentiate their language(s).

    	The French have made words like "weekend" illegal, and are looking
    for replacements, and I have heard of a rumour that there is a movement
    in the U.K. to replace words like "caf�" and "restaurant" in
    retaliation.
    
    	Has anyone seen suggested word replacements for these?

Are you sure? My impression was that it was a proposal which didn't make it in
the end (but just nearly so)

                                                        
                                                  - Rik -

    The restriction on using English words is now limited to official,
    i.e. governmental, documents and other communications.
    
    So the use of 'le weekend', 'le cheeseburger', 'le job' et al can 
    continue in the media and all other documents, discussions etc.
    
    The only 'French thing' the UK has been hell-bent on replacing is 
    Jacques Delors.

    	There were two points rejected, basically under freedom of speech
    guarantees in the French constitution. English words are permitted in
    private conversation and some other contexts. You can talk about 'le
    cheeseburger' amongst friends, but you can no longer mention it in an 
    advertisement, as far as I can understand. Any bar naming itself "le
    English Pub" will probably have to change its name.
    
    	DEC quotes to government agencies have always been rejected if they
    contained any non-French word, so there is no change there.

>        DEC quotes to government agencies have always been rejected if they
>    contained any non-French word, so there is no change there.

Haven't a lot of American English computer jargon (megabyte, bus, CPU etc. 
[excuse the Latin]) become universal?

Clay

>        DEC quotes to government agencies have always been rejected if they
>    contained any non-French word, so there is no change there.
    
    Or rather, there can be change there, but no no?
    And no mega anything, no lingua franca, and NO etc.

    P.S. (illegal in France :-)
    
    When the Quebec government told steak houses to become griladeries,
    a letter to the Globe and Mail suggested that restaurants should
    become eating places.
    
    -- Norman Diamond

    re: .6
    	The French for "byte" is "octet". I believe the "mega" prefix is
    valid, though. The French for "bit" is "eb", a contraction of "element
    binaire". A "computer" is "ordinateur". "File" is "fichier".
    
    	Computer terms are certainly not universal, and in France it is
    important to know the correct ones. A few years ago I gave a
    presentation on encryption to an audience that mostly consisted of the
    French navy. I gave a *reasonably* good impression, because although I
    gave the presentation in English, in the questions I was able to answer
    in French because they were supplying most of the French terms that I
    couldn't remember in their questions.
    
    	I (and the CCITT) prefer the French term "octet" for "byte" since
    it is more precise. I have seen documentation in English that referred
    to bytes of 6, 8, 9 and 11 bits. At least in French you are sure it is
    8 bits. I have no idea how you would translate the concept of a 9 bit
    byte into French.
    
    	I am fairly sure that any use of the words "megabyte", "bus", "CPU"
    in a proposal to the French government would guarantee its rejection,
    even before the recent law.

    .... a presentation on encryption to the French navy ....
    
    Dave, I think not --
    
    Surely what you gave was a presentation on encypherment, not on putting
    objects into crypts.

    	I apologise for the loose use of terminology. Much of the
    presentation was on our VAXencrypt product, which ought to have been
    called VAXencypher since it encyphers rather than encrypts.

    Idle question:  What's the French for "software" and "hardware"?
    I thought I once saw that the French for "software" was "logiciel" or
    something similar, but that was a long time ago.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    	"logiciel" sounds about right to me. Others interested might also
    like to know of "un syst�me d'exploitation" (operating system) and
    "m�moire morte" (ROM). I am not sure about the correct word for
    hardware. French people I deal with often talk about "le hard", but I
    wouldn't dare put that in a formal document.

re: .9

Thanks.  Fascinating

>        The French for "byte" is "octet". The French for "bit" is "eb" . . .

So one could have a 16, or 32, or 64 eb octet?

Clay

"Matieres durs" and "le hard" are terms that I have heard used on French
television but they appear unrelated to information technology.  There
is even "Le journal du hard" occasionally on pay TV.

There are many terms for hardware depending on its primary function.  For
example, on a bid that I am working on right now, hardware that is in place
to act primarily as a message switch is called  "le federateur".  

In a more general sense, hardware (like a mop) is called "materiel" whilst
software or supplies (like detergent) is called "produit".

/Chris. 

Sorry no accents (anyone know how to do these on NOTES with Motif interface?)

When the academie francais saw the word l'soft being used for software I
believe they changed it to logiciel....that was about 5 years ago

    I'm grateful that American English isn't monitored by the equivalent of
    the Academie Francais -- 
    
    I prefer the anarchy and vitality of American English.

>    I prefer the anarchy and vitality of American English.
					  xxxxxxxx

Remove xxxxxed word!

    I can only speak of the variant of English spoken in the USA -- if
    other variants are as anarchic and vital, then I'll gladly delete
    the adjective...

    Recalling another note in this conference, how has the French
    Academy protected itself from the Arabic word naranja?
    What French-origin, non-borrowed word do they use for the
    fruit, city, and color of orange?

    	French isn't exactly a static language. The word "cassette"
    according to my French dictionary is derived from the old French
    "casse", meaning a small box. It is frequently written "K7" in
    advertising literature. I am not sure if the Academie approve of the
    last variant, but they can hardly deny that it is all French in origin.
    
    	Orange, the city, the prince, the word, the fruit, and possibly
    even the colour existed in France before the Academie. I think the
    Academie was started somewhere around the late 17th or early 18th C.
    
    	For Arabic words, the drugs scene often refers to "H". I believe in
    the U.S. this normally means "heroin", but in French it is an obvious
    contraction of "haschisch", which word is in my French dictionary with
    an acknowlegement of its Arabic origin.

>Sorry no accents (anyone know how to do these on NOTES with Motif interface?)

Press <Compose Character> and <Space> (together), then the characters as you'd
do on a VT series terminal. 
                                                        
                                                  - Rik -

>>Press <Compose Character> and <Space> (together), then the characters as you'd
>>do on a VT series terminal. 

	I don't have <Compose Character> key on my clavier - I'm a PC user with
	industry-standard PCXAL-AE 102 keys.  Is there another way of achieving
	the Compose construct under NOTES/MOTIF/eXcursion? 

>	industry-standard PCXAL-AE 102 keys.  Is there another way of achieving
>	the Compose construct under NOTES/MOTIF/eXcursion? 

Don't know. Doesn't cut/paste from the Windoze Character Map thingie work?
Tedious, I know, but <alt><keypad> doesn't work for entering accented chars. And
I hope XCursion takes care of the proper PC-to-MCS conversion. 
                                                        
                                                  - Rik -

    	Sorry not to have entered anything in this topic, I was on a
    customer's site in UK last week. To answer Dave (.22), the Acad�mie
    Fran�aise was founded by cardinal de Richelieu (French prime minister
    from the 1620's -and an important king's councillor before that since
    1614- to his death in 1642). I'm not sure of the exact date of the
    foundation, but I'd say somewhere in the 1630's. At that time the
    prince of Orange had been a member of the house of Nassau for about a
    century: the first Nassau to inherit Orange was Ren� de Nassau who died
    in 1542 at the siege of Saint Dizier, I think. The word "cassette" is
    indeed derived from "casse" and means a small box or chest to keep
    coins, jewelery, etc... "Cassette" is already used in "l'Avare" by
    Moli�re (probably written in the 1650's or 1660's, I'd say).
    
    	As for computer related words that are widely used by everybody in
    France, here are those that come to my mind:
    -CPU: unit� centrale
    -byte: octet (as was said elsewhere, the concept of a 7-bit byte is
    			untranslatable in French)
    -directory: r�pertoire
    -hardware: mat�riel
    -software: logiciel
    -computer: ordinateur
    -computer science: informatique
    -file: fichier
    -disc: disque
    -floppy disk: disquette
    -memory: m�moire
    -ROM: m�moire morte
    -PC: ordinateur personnel
    -network: r�seau
    -node: n�ud
    -block: bloc
    -page: page
    -word: mot
    -(relational) database: base de donn�es (relationnelle)
    -workstation: station de travail
    -CD-ROM: disque optique (or disque laser)
    -magnetique tape: bande magn�tique
    	There are probably quite a few others that escape me. Some words
    have equivallents that for some reason never caught on. The best
    example is bit. "Eb" and also "monade" have been officially defined but
    have never been in wide use, people still use bit. Maybe the reason why
    they didn't catch on was that they were defined by some commission
    rather than spontaneously generated out of nowhere as most of the
    others must have been. I don't even know of a French word for bus
    (although I'm pretty sure one exists, the administration would not have
    forgotten it..., would it?). 
    	What surprises me is that foreigners pays so much attention to what
    the Acad�mie says. Most French people couldn't care less, a fair number
    would even not know that the Acad�mie exists, that does not stop them
    from speaking. Anyway, the Toubon law was severely emasculated when it
    passed before the Conseil Constitutionnel. They stated that the state
    could not force people to speak a language that it defined, because a
    language is essentially evolutive as long as it's not dead. So the only
    thing the state is allowed to do is to enforce the use of its version
    of the language in official publications or speeches from official
    bodies or in those of private persons if and when they act in an
    offical quality. Any shop, as long as it is not publicly owned, can
    have a name in English, or in Kiswahili for that matter, if it so
    wishes.
    		Denis.

    As long as we're debating computer terms in nonEnglish languages, here
    are a few in Latin to keep you all going:
    
    English			Latin
    -------			-----
    computer                    ordinator, -oris m.
    Digital Equipment Corporation	Conlegium, -i n. Armorum Digitalum
    disk (computer)             discus, -us m.
    diskette                    discula, -ae f.
    engineer (hardware)         pictor, -oris (pictrix, -icis) rerum durarum
    engineer (software)         pictor, -oris (pictrix, -icis) rerum mollium
    hardware (computer)         res, -erum durae, -arum f. pl.
    HD (high density)           d. mai. indecl. [densitatis maioris]
    interface                   interfacies, -iei f.
    keyboard                    clavitabula, -ae f.
    LD (low density)            d. min. indecl. [densitatis minoris]
    magnetic tape               taenia, -ae magnetica, -ae f.
    operating system (computer) ratio, -onis f.
    SCSI                        osip, -ae f. (Ordinatorum Systemarum
				Interfacies Parva)
    software                    res, -erum mollia, -ium f. pl.
    video terminal              tubus, -us m. radii cathodici (TRC)

And my absolute favorite of all time (from LOLA Deutsch on VMS):    

    English			German
    -------			-----
    Batch queue			die Stapelprozesswarteschlange

-stephen

    Re .26
    
    >-byte: octet (as was said elsewhere, the concept of a 7-bit byte is
    >			untranslatable in French)
    
    How does France's national manufacturer describe their 36-bit hardware
    with 6-bit and 9-bit characters?
    
    >-ROM: m�moire morte
    
    Isn't that phrase more suitable for write-only memory?  :-) :-)
    
    >-page: page
    
    Oh!  We'd better find an English word for that NOW!
    
    >-workstation: station de travail
                   -------
    That too!
    
    >I don't even know of a French word for bus
    
    Sure you do.  The question is, what is the English word for bus?
    
    -- Norman Diamond

    Re .29: Norman:
>    How does France's national manufacturer describe their 36-bit hardware
>    with 6-bit and 9-bit characters?
    
    	They usually speak of computers based on a 36-bit architecture
    (architecture 36 bits, or 36 ebs if they are really picky), and of
    6-bit or 9-bit characters (caract�res de 6 bits ou de 9 bits). Strange,
    isn't it?
    
>    >-ROM: m�moire morte
>    Isn't that phrase more suitable for write-only memory?  :-) :-)
    
    	Write-only memory would be the null device, another term for which
    I don't know of a French equivallent (I think I should quickly get hold
    of one of those French computer glossaries, I'm sure to get some fun
    out of it...)
    			Denis.

    A printer is a write-only-memory ...
    
    ed

    Ahhh but its output is readmanytimes...
    
    We invented WORN memory for secret use in the military.. 
    Write Once, Read Never
    
    we were believed too, for a while!
    
    derek

    In the mid-1970s, there was a real contest held by Signetics, a chip
    manufacturer, for the best use of a Signetics 25120 WOM (Write-Only
    Memory) chip.  Full specs of the chip were published, including its
    capacity, power requirements, and cooling needs (a 6-foot fan mounted
    1/2 inch from the chip).  This was done in a full-color multipage
    foldout brochure.  There was a real winner, and a real prize was
    awarded.  I still have the spec sheet somewhere.
    
    -dick

    Speaking of unusual hardware in relation to language...
    
    In the October 1994 issue of GAMES Magazine, there appears the
    following ad:

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OLD MATH(R)
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        \           .-'    a button.  And unlike other products of this type,
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           .-'
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    For those who aren't familar with GAMES, each month they publish a
    bogus ad for sharp-eyed readers to find...