Conference thebay::joyoflex

    Augustin Jean Fresnel was a Frenchman.  In a French name, an `s' in
    that position is almost certain to be silent, as in the word demesne. 
    
    -dick

    it's a mixture of knowledge, guess work and intuition.
    
    The same thing applies to "how do I tell which syllables to accent in a
    multi-syllable word?"
    
    Nick

    Yeah, Nick, in my case it was knowledge.  I learned about Fresnel's
    nationality in a high-school physics unit on optics, but the physics
    instructor pronounced the name `frez-null.  It was in my French class
    at the same time that I learned French pronunciation and applied it to
    Fresnel's name.  Years later I saw it in a dictionary and was gratified
    to learn that I had been right.
    
    -dick

    This reminds me of a TV interview with Frank Zappa, where
    he was asked about his cooperation with the composer/conductor
    Boulez. The reporter kept pronouncing it 'boulay' and FZ
    pronounced it with the final z. Eventually, the reporter
    asked "Why do you say 'Boulezzz'? How can you know that's
    how his name is pronounced?" Zappa: "He told me".

    I believe that in some French dialects, the s in Fresnel would be
    pronounced.  (With an s sound, not a z sound.)
    
    -- Norman Diamond

    A Frenchman whose name is pronounced "freh-nel" in Francophone
    countries invented a lens and named it after himself, but in English
    speaking countries the lens is generally called a "frez-nel" lens.
    
    Both pronunciations appear in my dictionary, the z-one first.
    

    Then, Tom, WADR to your dictionary, imho its author hails from the
    Twilight Z-one.
    
    :-)
    

re: 1026.4


Is topic 1028 what is meant by the term "mute discussion"?


Clay

>    countries invented a lens and named it after himself, but in English
>    speaking countries the lens is generally called a "frez-nel" lens.

Pardon ?????

I have been involved with stage lighting in both Canada and England where
Fresnel Spotlights are used extensively for their "soft" spot or if you
like "spot - flood" properties.  I have only once heard anyone call it
a Freznel lens.  So "in English speaking countries the lens is generally
called a Fren-nel lens"

Stuart

    W9NCD lists frez-nel before fra-nel in discussing the lens itself.  I
    gotta keep reminding myself that dictionaries are not intended to tell
    you how to use (or pronounce) words correctly.  They tell you the ways
    that people have used (and pronounced) words, whether those ways are
    right, wrong, or indifferent.  From the Curmudgeon's Dictionary comes
    the following quotation, which I have surely posted in JOYOFLEX before:
    
        dictionary, n.  A collection of what the editors fondly hope passes
        for educational material, intended to record how words are used. 
        Widely believed to prescribe the correct usage of language, in
        consequence of which belief the language is rapidly going to hell
        in a handbasket.
        
            Dictionaries are like watches; the worst is better than none,
            and the best cannot be expected to go quite true.
        
        				- Samuel Johnson, "Johnsoniana"
        
    Re .9
    
    W9NCD is an American dictionary.  It reflects how Americans use words,
    not how people in other English-speaking countries use them.  I must
    agree that Tom's brush was unduly broad.
    
    -dick

   >> countries invented a lens and named it after himself, but in English
   >> speaking countries the lens is generally called a "frez-nel" lens.

	Frequently being victimized myself by those who insist upon
	pronouncing every "s", I can well imagine that the monsieur
	would be horrified by this, were it true.


	Diane of the houses

>  >> countries invented a lens and named it after himself, but in English
>  >> speaking countries the lens is generally called a "frez-nel" lens.

>        Frequently being victimized myself by those who insist upon
>        pronouncing every "s", I can well imagine that the monsieur
>        would be horrified by this, were it true.


Very well, then.  Henceforth I will refer to the article as a Frenel len.

Clay

    Yes, names certainly complicate the pronunciation guessing game.  I do
    believe it is standard in British English, though, to just pronounce
    names as if they were English words -- in effect, translating them to
    English.  (How many of us pronounce Paris "paree"?)  I've more than
    once heard Don Quixote pronounced "Don Quixet" by brits.
    
    But names that begin with "des" are interesting.  Di's name would sound
    odd if the "s" were pronounced.  But then there's "Desmond".  I've never
    known a Desmond that did not pronounce the "s".  Just looked through
    the DEC phonebook and found a "Destroismaisons".  Wonder how he
    pronounces it?

>    believe it is standard in British English, though, to just pronounce
>    names as if they were English words -- in effect, translating them to
>    English.  (How many of us pronounce Paris "paree"?)  I've more than
>    once heard Don Quixote pronounced "Don Quixet" by brits.

Today, it is not standard to pronounce names as if translated to English ...
except where an English name is now the norm ... like Paris.  It is, in part,
a matter of education ... some teachers are very strong about doing it
right and others laxidasical.

Paris is indeed "Paree"
Munich is not Munchen
Brussels is not Bruxelles or Brusel

on the other hand

Salzburg is correctly Saltsboorg
Zeebrugge is Zee-broo-g-e

A lot of traditional English names are being replaced with their correct
names like Beijing (as close as one can get with English sounds).

Stuart

	>>laxidasical.

	Please tell me this isn't a real word now - I'll scream.  8^)

    It depends on where you are from ... in some areas it is a perfectly
    good word ... 
    
    Stuart

    Re .13:
    >I do believe it is standard in British English, though, to just
    >pronounce names as if they were English words
    
    Such as Worcester?

    ... Reminds me of my favorite railroad name -- I always wonder when I
    see a boxcar sporting it, whether their management has ever figured out
    what occult force was robbing their workers of motivation...
    
    I speak, of course, of the
    
    
    Erie Lackawanna Railroad.
    

    Hmph.  The "Erie Lackawanna" was a latter-day stepchild of two *real*
    railroads, the Erie Line and the Delaware, Lackawanna, and Western. 
    Make something of *that* Mr Kalikow!  :-)

    	For Paris (or Paree) a different rationale applies. When one of
    those nouns that are not permitted in Scrabble appears the rules seem
    to change.
    
    	An example of this is Florence. In medieval Itailian it was written
    much like that; in modern German it is written "Florenz"; the Dutch
    and English coins "florin" are derived from the fact that they were
    originaly minted there. The modern local spelling and (with allowance
    for Italian pronunciation) have it as "Firenze". What is correct?
    Should we change just because the Italians have and they own the city,
    or is the name owned by the world?

    I think we should change because the Italians have and they own the
    city.  After all, most of us changed the spelling of Beijing, when
    the local spelling doesn't even use Roman letters in the first place.
    
    Sorry, I'll have to type it in a Japanese character set since I don't
    know a Chinese character set, but the appearance is correct:  �̵�
    
    -- Norman Diamond

    	Of course there are several possible positions.
    
    	One position is historical correctness. Use Florence when referring
    to the medieval city and Firenze for the modern city; use Leningrad
    when referring to that city during the period it was called that. In
    France it is common to date events during the first republic with the
    names of months from the republican calender - for example, the second
    month of the calender was "Brumaire" and lasted from about three
    quarters through October to about three quarters through November.
    Doing it the way the natives do it would require that foreign history
    texts use the republican calender to describe events during the French
    revolutionary period.
    
    	Since there are more Germans and Brits than Italians I think the
    Italians ought to change back to match the majority. ;-)
    
    	Dave, who has always insisted on referring to Cape Canaveral.

    I think that unlike the inconsistent situation with place-names,
    dates are usually adjusted to suit the coordinates of the country
    where the discussion or study is taking place.
    
    Exception:  when an event occurs outside Japan, news reports use the
    year numbers that are used in the country where the event occured,
    instead of Japanese era names and year numbers.
    
    Exception to exception:  when an event occurs in Thailand, Israel,
    an Arab country, etc., news reports use Christian years instead of
    the year numbers that are used in the country where the event occured.
    
    Other exceptions:  sometimes when westerners write histories of Japan
    or China or Rome or Egypt etc., they use the historical era names of
    the events instead of Christian and Before Christian year numbers.
    But not always.
    
    How do French scholars designate dates of ancient Greek or Roman
    Republic events?
    
    -- Norman Diamond

    Re .23
    
    Dates are not necessarily adjusted.  Virtually anyone who discusses the
    events of the French Revolution and its immediate sequel will use the
    date 9 Thermidor, not July 27, to refer to the date upon which the
    Reign of Terror ended.
    
    -dick

   >> It depends on where you are from ... in some areas it is a perfectly
   >> good word ... 

	Well, that's sufficiently obtuse.  8^)

>>    countries invented a lens and named it after himself, but in English
>>    speaking countries the lens is generally called a "frez-nel" lens.
>
>Pardon ?????
>
>I have been involved with stage lighting in both Canada and England where
>Fresnel Spotlights are used extensively for their "soft" spot or if you
>like "spot - flood" properties.  I have only once heard anyone call it
>a Freznel lens.  So "in English speaking countries the lens is generally
>called a Fren-nel lens"
    
>Stuart
    
    What Stuart said, only more so -- add the USA.  I worked in the
    business for over eleven years , and I *never* heard it pronounced 
    with a "Z".

How do they pronounce it in Fresno?

    As if they were in Fremont.
    

.23>    Exception to exception:  when an event occurs in Thailand, Israel,
.23>    an Arab country, etc., news reports use Christian years instead of
.23>    the year numbers that are used in the country where the event occured.

Here in Israel, the Gregorian calendar is most often used in most situations.
For example, an Israeli newspaper would refer to the elections that were held
here in June of 1992, rather than using the date on the Jewish calendar. The
Jewish calendar is used commonly only for certain types of occasions, such as
religious and national holidays.


.24>    Dates are not necessarily adjusted.  Virtually anyone who discusses the
.24>    events of the French Revolution and its immediate sequel will use the
.24>    date 9 Thermidor, not July 27, to refer to the date upon which the
.24>    Reign of Terror ended.

Another, somewhat more confusing, example:  Every November, the Soviet Union
used to celebrate the anniversary of "the October Revolution".

    Re .29
    
    Why is the fact that the October (Julian) Revolution was celebrated in
    November (Gregorian) confusing?
    
    -dick