Conference thebay::joyoflex

    Most of my problems were to do with inflections of words ending in
    "-e". Examples:

    1. continuing, valuing, intriguing, queuing etc. 

       I'm sure I've seen "valueing" before.

    2. manageable, changeable etc

       It's a bit confusing. What about pagable, stagable.

    Anyone care to try and formulate some rules of thumb ?

    Retain the terminal `e' if the final sounded syllable ends in a
    consonant before the `e'.  Thus:
    
    	"page" --> "pageable"
    
    but
    
    	"value" --> "valuing"
    
    Well?

    Re: .1
    
    Usually the "e" is dropped.  But the "e" is kept, in words such as
    "manageable" to keep the "soft" "g" sound.
    
Lew Lasher

   >> Retain the terminal `e' if the final sounded syllable ends in a
   >> consonant before the `e'.  Thus:
    
   >> 	"page" --> "pageable"


    If you mean _any_ consonant, then this doesn't always work, e.g.:

        "devise" --> "devisable"    


    Diane

    My cheap and cheerful Collins Paperback English Dictionary has the
    derivative words as well as the root words.
    
    Maybe your cheap and cheerful dictionary was a bit too cheapor a bit
    too cheerful? :-)
    
    Anyway the 'little green book' sounds like a smart idea.  Could you
    prepare one for us please?
    
    Nick

    I have on my desk "The Word Book" which contains "40,000 words spelled
    and divided".  
    
    Under "age" we find 
    
    	"age, aged, ag'ing _or_ age'ing
    
    	"aged _(of the age of)_
    
    	"a'ged _(elderly)_
    
    	"age'ism
    
    	"age'less"
    
    etc.  You'll find these in any bookstore or office supplies store. 
    There are many editions with different numbers of words, but 40,000
    seemed about right to me.
    
    Whenever I look anything up, I make a tick next to the word. 
    "oc-cas'ion" has eight marks next to it.  On the facing page, "oeu'rve"
    pl. oeu'vres" has one mark.
    
    Listings include, words confused with other words, for exampe "offal
    _(waste)_, see _awful_.  There are lots of other features, packed into
    a 3x4-inch book at about $6.
    
    

    Rules of thumb in English are not always useful, because English
    absorbs words from everywhere.  
    
    It has two primary roots, Latinate and Germanic, each with its
    idiosyncrasies.  With each primary root, there are variations (Latin,
    French, Spanish, etc. or Old English, German, and so on).  
    
    In addition, English has gleefully added words from every major (and
    many minor) language group; it has also created or redefined words
    whenever needed (and sometimes even when not). 
    
    Because of the breadth of its base, any consistent rule is impossible.
    English is a very rich and variegated language; it also a very
    difficult language to learn and spell correctly.
    
    					andrew

    Is there any other language anywhere that does not have a consistent set
    of spelling and pronunciation rules?

    I pity anybody that tries to learn to write or speak English.

    - Jim

    No language is perfectly consistent -- English is less consistent than
    most since its sources are so diverse .
    
    					andrew

    Writing or speaking English is no problem.  Writing AND speaking yield
    the problem.
    
    Meanwhile, a word list doesn't do much good for the English language
    because, as a notable regular has pointed out:
    spelling chequers aren't awl ewe kneed.
    
    And finally, in response to .0, I must point out that most English
    speakers DON'T refer to dictionaries to get correct spellings.
    A few do, but most just write random sequences of letters that
    look like they might be pronounced the same as the desired word.
    
    And post-finally, as a rule of thumb, although a trailing "e" is
    usually dropped when inflecting, it has to be retained when there
    is a soft "g" and a suffix that starts with something other than
    "e" or "i", because the "e" keeps the "g" soft -- you should never
    forget.

   Thanks for all the responses. I shall look out for The Word Book, but 
   I _do_ spend a lot of time in bookshops (not bookstores!), and I haven't
   noticed it before, so perhaps it's more readily available in the US than
   other countries. Could you give me an author or ISBN reference ?

   >> And finally, in response to .0, I must point out that most English
   >> speakers DON'T refer to dictionaries to get correct spellings.
   >> A few do, but most just write random sequences of letters that
   >> look like they might be pronounced the same as the desired word.

   Thank you for this. I burst into a loud guffaw at my terminal when I 
   read it.

    >> And post-finally, as a rule of thumb, although a trailing "e" is
    >> usually dropped when inflecting, it has to be retained when there
    >> is a soft "g" and a suffix that starts with something other than
    >> "e" or "i", because the "e" keeps the "g" soft -- you should never
    >> forget.

   This is the best rule of thumb I've been given yet. I shall henceforth
   apply it diligently and post back any exceptions I come across.

   -Sim.

    That (probably) all alphabetically-written languages are not
    self-consistent is almost certainly true.  Even Latin, whoch is often
    touted as a prime example of regularity, exhibits some serious
    irregularity, having indeclinable nouns and adjectives as well
    as irregular, deponent, and defective verbs - as well as three known
    pronunciation styles (two dialects of canonical "Church" Latin, the
    Germanic and the Italianate, and the accepted "classical" Roman form). 
    :-)
    
    -dick

>    That (probably) all alphabetically-written languages are not
>    self-consistent is almost certainly true.  

Isn't consistency (of spelling, pronunciation, declension, etc.) one of the 
virtues of Esperanto?

Clay

    Are there any other languages in which one can have a reasonably
    competitive spelling bee?  Do such things take place in, say, French
    schools?  
    
    ellie  (who has real trouble with French spelling)

    Every language has parts that are easy and parts that are hard. 
    English is almost entirely devoid of inflection of any kind.  In fact,
    the grammar of English is quite stripped down compared to some other
    languages.  The spelling is hard for the reasons adduced.  I would only
    add that importing words from other languages without altering the
    spelling to a phonetic form improves the odds of your being able to
    figure out what an new word means.  The ready absorption of words from
    other languages is one of the glories of English; tough spelling is the
    price we pay.
    
    It is my observation, by the way, that English can deal with
    misspellings (nine ticks next to "misspell" in my Word Book) better
    than most languages, not to mention misconstructions and grammatical
    errors.  I have rarely seen one of those collections of "amusing
    mistakes in English by foreigners" so confused that I couldn't figure
    out what they had been trying to say.  I understand that you can
    compose prose in French that is both grammatically correct and with all
    words used correctly that will still be rejected as "not French".
    
    Practical addendum:
    
    My particular edition of The Word Book was compiled by Kaethe Ellis and
    published by Houghton Mifflin.  It is "based on" the American Heritage
    Dictionary (don't let me get started on that).  Mine was published in
    1976, and the ISBN is 039-524-5214.  "All correspondence and inquiries
    should be directed to Dictionary Division, Houghton Mifflin Company,
    Two Park Street, Boston, MA 02107."
    
    I'd go to the reference section in a bookstore or the "secretarial
    tools" department of a stationery store and ask for "a book called
    something like '50,000 words' or 'spelling dictionary'".  I'm pretty
    sure you'll find something to fit your needs.

    
   >> ellie  (who has real trouble with French spelling)

	Vraymon, Ellie?  Pork wah?  Keldo mahj.


	Di

    Pork wah?  is that anything like Pork satay?
    
    -dick

    Nope, you cook Pork Satay in a Pork Wah.
    
    					andrew

>    ... because the "e" keeps the "g" soft -- you should never
>    forget.
    
    Forget Fergie the geisha girl, together with her geese?  Get out, you
    git!
    

    re .16
    
    Say vray!  
    
    

    I even formatted my previous reply to make the word "forget" stand out
    on a line by itself at the end, and it appears that the irony went
    unnoticed.  Sigh.  The "e" keeps the "g" sound soft.  Don't forGEt.
    Sigh.
    
    Incidentally, phonetic spellings in Japanese (which can always be used,
    though of course imported Chinese characters are often preferred for
    many Japanese words), and I believe in Thai and Hebrew and Sanskrit
    and Korean and Greek, come very very close to internal consistency.
    I think the number of exceptions in Japanese pronunciation is less
    than 20, maybe less than 10.
    
    -- Norman Diamond

    Is "ghettoization" correctly spelled ? It's probably not a word, I
    suppose the formal term for it should be "ghetto-forming", or "the
    formation of a ghetto".

    eg. in a sociology paper: "... to prevent ghettoization, these people
    should..."

    It's the -oi- that looks so peculiar.

    -Sim.

    Re: .22
    
    	"It's the -oi- that looks so peculiar."
    
    If it really bothers you, then you can put a di�resis over the "i."
    
Lew Lasher

    How can ghettoization not be a word?  It's in common use.  We all know
    what it means.
    

>    on a line by itself at the end, and it appears that the irony went
>    unnoticed.  Sigh.  The "e" keeps the "g" sound soft.  Don't forGEt.
    
    Norman, I thought about titling my reply "Just so Norman doesn't think
    we didn't notice" but then thought, No, that would be overkill, no one
    could possibly misinterpret the spirit of this reply.
    
    Ray

    OK, sorry, and in fact I was so sorry that I accidentally typed "sorry"
    instead of "reply".  In compensation for your toils, I get the point,
    and let's spread oil on troubled waters, and regarding whether anyone
    should be concerned about "oi", I am not going to say anything.
    
    -- Norman Diamond

    That's OK.  This morning in the shower I realized that she should've
    been a giggling geisha girl.
    
    Ray

    A reason that a dictionary is more useful for English than would
    be a mere list of correct spellings is that English has so many
    homophones you cannot tell which one is correct without looking at a
    definition.
    
    ed

    The reason that The Word Book is not just a list of spellings is the
    same.  TWB and others like it always have homophones in them.