Conference thebay::joyoflex

    I thought this referred to Br�nnhilde, who essentially has the last
    word in the interminable Wagner ring cycle.  "Fat lady" because of a
    popular image of opera singers.
    
    But the specific reference to G�tterd�mmerung might be too obscure for
    American popular culture.
    
Lew Lasher

    �But the specific reference to G�tterd�mmerung might be too obscure for
    �American popular culture.
    
    I don't agree. Many of the German Jews who immigrated in the '30s were
    exceptionally well educated, and - given Hitler's attitude to Wagner -
    may well have referred irreverently to the Ring. This is the most
    plausible explanation I've heard so far for a form of words that has
    had me wondering for years.
    
    Of course, the popular culture doesn't have to understand the reference
    if the form of words sounds good - which this does.
    
    
    b

Enough Wagnerianisms.  Move your brow a little lower.  Think Kate Smith and 
"God Bless America".  The Philadelphia Fliers.

Larry

    
    So they sing at the end of the contest, do they? The same as "God Bless
    the Fat Lady" over here in the U.K.
    
    Richard.

    re .3:  No, the phrase pre-dates the Philadelphia flyers and Kate
    Smith's rendition of "God Bless America."  Besides, she sang at the
    beginning, not the end, of the game.
    
    The phrase does, indeed, refer to opera (but not necessarily Wagner). 
    Many operas end with a soprano solo, and sopranos are (were?) often
    less than svelte -- so operas usually aren't over until the climactic
    aria -- that is: "...they ain't over 'til the fat lady sings."
    
    					andrew

    WRT the last few...
    
    As Victor Borge said of a mezzo-soprano in his own Mozart opera,
    
    "She didn't just fill the part, she *overflowed* in it!"
    
    Nick

re: .5

>    The phrase does, indeed, refer to opera (but not necessarily Wagner). 

A mild disagreement.

In many Wagner operas, the sopranos were dressed in breastplates (which 
accentuated an already buxom figure) and a helmet with horns sticking out, and 
carrried a spear and a leather shield.  All of these things made the woman 
look much less svelte and dainty, and contributed to a "fat" image.

Additionally, the Wagner "Ring" operas are very long -- most exceeding four 
hours, so they seem to be interminable, hence the reference to when it's 
"over".

So, while the phrase doesn't "necessarily" refer to Wagner, I think that a 
finale from one of the "Ring" operas is by far the most prevalent image.

Clay

    There was a very buxom very tall soprano or mezzosoprano of Nordic
    extraction who toured  the less urban parts of the USA in the
    nineteen-teens singing popular roles such as Carmen and Brunhilde. 
    I've forgotten her name -- I don't know that she was anyone in
    particular, but she was the only contact a lot of people in major
    parts of the country had with grand opera. 
    
    My grandfather was in love with her for years and cried when he
    read that she had died alone in Montreal.  He said the tenor was a
    short fat bald little guy who would have been squashed if she fell
    on him. . . more comic than tragic.
    
    --bonnie

    re .8:
    
    Was she Birgit Neilsen?
    
    	Jon

    Jenny Lind (Lindt)?
    
    Bernie

	The orginal derivation of this phrase may be lost in the mists
	of time, but its recent popularity comes as follows:

		In happier times, back in the 1970s when he was coaching
		the Washington Bullets, Dick Motta uttered what would
		become one of sports' most popular sayings, "The opera
		ain't over 'til the fat lady sings."

			-- Charlotte Observer, Jan. 11 1991

	I believe most people are familiar with this expression from 
	Tommy LaSorda however.  Anyway, this is where it comes from:
	sports, popular images of opera, etc.

		-- Cliff

    Re .8.
    
    It'd be neat if she was always bottom of the bill. Then - especially
    in `less urban' parts, where folks needed telling what to expect
    in a theeayter - the expression would fit perfectly.
    
    And aren't tenors (especially in heroic parts) usually like that?
    
    b

    She wasn't Jenny Lind.  Lind did tour the west a lot, but she was
    popular and well-paid.  Brigit Neilsen sounds more like the name I
    remember.  I don't remember Adelaide Adams.
    
    Isn't that the name of a current model/actress, too?  I think
    she's married to Mark Gastineau the football player, so perhaps
    it's appropriate . . . 
    
    Yes, tenors tend to be portly, too.  Look at Pavarotti.  
    
    --bonnie

    It could well be the name of someone in the real world, but Adelaide
    Adams was fictional (touring singer who performed at Deadwood). To
    make her even less substantial, I suspect that it was a stage name
    anyway - which would mean there was nobody called Adelaide Adams
    even in Calamity Jane.
    
    I suspect I'm not alone in wishing I hadn't started this.
    
    b

The fat lady is almost any operatic prima donna, especially in the USA
over the past 75 years or so.  Singing the lead in an opera, especially
but not only Wagner, takes a lot out of a performer.  It used to be
thought necessary to start out big if one wanted to sing night after
night; nowadays, they just recognize the need to stoke up on
high-energy foods, and the upcoming generation of opera singers are not
notably tubby.

The originator of "It ain't over until the fat lady sings" was the
inimitable and much lamented Leroy "Satchel" Paige, who may well have
been the best baseball pitcher ever.  For those unfamiliar with Paige,
he was a black and was restricted to the infamous Negro leagues.  Near
the end of his career, after blacks were allowed into "white" baseball,
he joined one of the Major League teams for a year but didn't do much. 
But once, while he was in his prime, he faced a Major League team in
exhibition and struck out every batter who faced him.

-d

    Paige may have popularized the saying as related to baseball, but
    I doubt very much that he invented it.  
    
    He was, however, every bit as good as you say, maybe better.
    
    > Near the end of his career, after blacks were allowed into "white" 
    >baseball, he joined one of the Major League teams for a year 
    >but didn't do much. 
    
    The team -- wish I could remember which one -- carried him for a
    year without regard to whether he was still effective so he would
    become eligible for the major league pension plan when he retired
    from the team. 
    
    --bonnie

  The saying usually attributed to Satchel Paige is, "Never look back;
  somebody might be gaining on you."  Not to be confused with Fats Waller's,
  "One never knows, do one."

  JP

    
    	Satchel Paige played for the Cleveland Indians in the '40's
    & '50's....
    
    	Dave
    

    '40s and '50s, hardly.  Paige pitched for Cleveland in '48.  They won
    the pennant that year.  He was over 40 at that time - nobody knew - or
    knows - his true age.  But I don't believe he pitched for them in '49.
    
    -d