Conference thebay::joyoflex

    In answer to your question no. 2:
    
          An example that came up in the area of computerized
    speech recognition was the sentence "The good can decay
    many ways" which was interpreted by the computer as "The
    good candy came anyways." I realize that this doesn't
    exactly follow the rules (since the first two words are
    the same in both sentences) but it is a close approximation.
    (Note: my dictionary lists "anyway" but not the plural
     "anyways."  Is the plural form correct?)
    

    Another example from attempts at speech recognition:
    
    How to recognize speech
    How to wreck a nice beach
    
    (I don't pronounce "recognize" this way, but the test speaker evidently
    did.)

    
    A french poet (Alphonse Allais, perhaps) tried to build
    the longest possible "olorime", and came up with:
    
	    Gal, amant de la reine, alla, tour magnanime,
	    Galamment de l'ar�ne � la Tour Magne, � N�mes.
    
    Those who read french notice the whole sentence
    has a perfectly consistent meaning. 
    
    There must be good ones in english too ?
    
    
    

    I forgot where I heard this one, but someone took the name of the
    great wine producer
    
                Le Chateau Mouton Rothschild
    
    and turned it into
    
                Le chat eau mout on Roth's child
    
    where "eau mout" is French slang for "urinate."

    An impressive bilingual example is the little book Mots D'Heures:
    Gousses, Rames (I forget the author's name, but I bet someone here
    knows it). It's a collection of French verses that correspond
    syllable-for-syllable with English Mother Goose rhymes (as does the
    title). 
    
    There's a similar device in which two lines contain the same letters,
    but the words are broken differently. The Dover book Palindromes and
    Anagrams by Howard W. Bergerson calls them "charades," and gives
    several pages of ungainly examples such as: 

    	Hiss, caress pursuit, or astound, O roc -- O cobras.
    	His scares spur suitor as to undo rococo bras.
    
    	No, uncle-and-auntless be, as ties deny our end.
    	No unclean, dauntless beasties den you rend.
                                                                 
    Bergerson claims that "charades have very little history behind
    them, and not much has been done with them."
    
					Val

>    An impressive bilingual example is the little book Mots D'Heures:
>    Gousses, Rames (I forget the author's name, but I bet someone here
>    knows it). It's a collection of French verses that correspond
>    syllable-for-syllable with English Mother Goose rhymes (as does the
>    title). 

The same thing has been done in German, but in the other direction. The
Collected Works of Lord Charles contains poems apparently written in
English, but when you read them aloud, they're German nursery rhymes.

A sample:

	Allah miner engine		Alle meine Entchen
	Sh!Women how've dame say,    	Schwimmen auf dem See,
	Sh!Women how've dame say.	Schwimmen auf dem See.    
	Curb shun hunter vas her	Koepfchen unter Wasser
	Sh!Fen shun in dare her.	Schwaenzchen in die Hoehe.

!
Stephen

    .6 reminded me that I do know an example in English. I don't know
    its source, so I'll type in the whole thing (from a faded ditto
    sheet I kept from high school). 
    
    					Val


    
                             LADLE RAT ROTTEN HUT
                                 -- Anonymous
    
    Wants pawn term, dare worsted ladle gull hoe lift wetter murder
    inner ladle cordage honor itch offer lodge, dock florist. Disk ladle
    gull orphan worry ladle cluck wetter putty ladle rat hut, end for
    disk raisin pimple colder Ladle Rat Rotten Hut.
    
    Wan moaning Rat Rotten Hut's murder colder inset. "Ladle Rat Rotten
    Hut, heresy ladle basking winsome burden barter end shirker cockles.
    Tick disk ladle basking tudor cordage offer groin murder hoe lifts
    udder site offer florist. Shaker lake! Dun stopper laundry wrote!
    Dun daily-doily inner florist, and yonder nor sorghum stenches dun
    stopper torque wet strainers!"
    
    "Hoe-cake, murder," resplendent Ladle Rat Rotten Hut, and tickle
    ladle basking an stuttered oft honor wrote tudor cordage offer groin
    murder. Ladle Rat Rotten Hut mitten anomalous woof. "Wail, wail,
    wail," sat disk wicket woof, "evanescent Ladle Rat Rotten Hut! Wares
    or putty gull goring wizard ladle basking?" 

    "Armor goring tumor groin murder's," reprisal ladle gull. "Grammar's
    seeking bet. Armor ticking arson burden barter and shirker cockles."
    
    "O hoe! Heifer blessing woke," setter wicket woof. Butter taught tomb
    shelf, "Oil ticker shirt court tudor cordage offer groin murder! Oil
    ketchup wetter letter... end den... oh, bore!" 

    Soda wicket woof tucker shirt court and whiney retched a cordage
    offer groin murder, picket inner widow and sore debtor pore oil
    warming worse lion inner bet. Inner flash abdominal woof lipped
    honor betting added rope. Zany pool dawn groin murder's nut cup
    end gnat gun, any curdle dope inner bet. 

    Inner ladle wile Ladle Rat Rotten Hut a raft adder cordage and
    ranket dough bell. 

    "Comb ink, sweat hard!" setter wicket woof, disgracing is verse. 

    "O, grammar!" crater ladle gull. "What bag icer gut!" 

    "Battered lucky chew whiff, doling," whiskered disk ratchet woof,
    wetter wicket small. 

    "O, grammar, water bag noise! A nervous sore suture anomalous
    prognosis!" 

    "Battered small you whiff," inserted woof, ants mouse worse
    waddling. 

    "O, grammar, water bag mousey gut! A nervous sore suture bag mouse!"
    
    Doze worry on forger nutgull's lest warts. Oil offer sodden throne
    offer carvers end sprinkling otter bet, disk curl on bloat Thursday
    woof ceased pore Ladle Rat Rotten Hut end garbled erupt. 

    MURAL: Yonder nor sorghum stenches shut ladle gulls stopper torque
    wet strainers. 
                   

    I used to have this in my MAIL file...I can't remember the name
    of the author; but the story with it was that it was written during
    the rationing years of WWII.  The author felt that language might
    be rationed also, and wrote the last story using "rationed" words.

      Re .7
      
      Here's a version I copied without permission from a book by Espy.
      It was written by Prof. Howard Chace, who definitely isn't
      anonymous.
      
      Dave C.
      
      

			LADLE RAT ROTTEN HUT
				Prof. Howard Chace



	Wants pawn term dare worsted ladle gull hoe lift wetter murder
inner ladle cordage honor itch offer lodge dock florist.  Disc ladle
gull orphan worry ladle cluck wetter putty ladle rat hut, end fur
disc raisin pimple caulder ladle rat rotten hut.  Wan moaning rat
rotten hut's murder colder inset:  "Ladle rat rotten hut, heresy
ladle basking winsome burden barter an shirker cockles.  Tick
disc ladle basking tudor cordage offer groin murder hoe lifts honor
udder site offer florist.  Shaker lake, dun stopper laundry wrote,
end yonder nor sorghum stenches dun stopper torque wet strainers."

      	"Hoe-cake, murder," resplendent ladle rat rotten hut, end tickle
ladle basking an sturred oft.  Honor wrote tudor cordage offer groin
murder, ladle rat rotten hut mitten anomalous woof.

      	"Wail, wail, wail," set disc wicket woof, "evanescent ladle rat
rotten hut!  Wares or putty ladle gull goring wizard ladle basking?"

      	"Armor goring tumor groin murder's," reprisal ladle gull.
"Grammars seeking bet.  Armor ticking arson burden barter end
shirker cockles."

      	"O hoe!  Heifer blessing woke," setter wicket woof, butter taught
tomb shelf, "Oil tickle shirt court tudor cordage offer groin murder.
Oil ketchup wetter letter, and den--O bore!"

      	Soda wicket woof tucker shirt court, end whinney retched a
cordage offer groin murder, picket inner widow an sore debtor
port oil worming worse lion inner bet.  Inner flesh disc abdominal
woof lipped honor betting adder rope.  Zany pool dawn a groin
murder's nut cup an gnat gun, any curdle dope inner bet.

      	Inner ladle wile ladle rat rotten hut a raft attar cordage an
ranker dough ball.  "Comb ink, sweat hard," setter wicket woof,
disgracing is verse.  Ladle rat rotten hut entity bet rum end stud
buyer groin murder's bet.  "Oh grammar," crater ladle gull, "Wart
bag icer gut!  A nervous sausage bag ice!"  "Butter lucky chew whiff,
doling," whiskered disc ratchet woof, wetter wicket small.  "Oh
grammar, water bag noise!  A nervous sore suture anomalous
prognosis!"  "Butter small your whiff," inserter woof, ants mouse
worse wadding.  "Oh grammar, water bag mousey gut!  A nervous
sore suture bag mouse!"

      	Daze worry on forger nut gull's lest warts.  Oil offer sodden
throne offer carvers an sprinkling otter bet, disc curl an bloat
Thursday woof ceased pore ladle rat rotten hut an garbled erupt.


      	Mural:  Yonder nor sorghum stenches shud ladle gulls stopper
torque wet strainers.

    These goblin-tales remind me of a thoroughly Spoonerized version
    of Cinderella I heard recited.  It was entitled "Prinderella and
    the Cince."  I cannot reproduce it in full (please, no applause)
    but the last line was, "So the storal of the morey is, if you want
    a prandsome hince to loll in fove with you, don't forget to slop
    your dripper."
    
    The back-transformation is left as an exercise to the reader.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    We ought to make these available as DECtalk demos, don't you think?

    RE: .10
    
    That hints of Victor Borge's recital of "Cinderella and the Sisty
    Uglers".                                 
    
    ------------------------------------
    
    I'm also reminded of a story my father used to tell of someone trying
    to minimize the word count in a telegram concerning a relative's
    recent infirmity:
    
    Anisine hospital adamant bitter asinine places.
    

Yes, I'd love to see the Cinderella poem.  Can someone please ask
someone to type it in ?  If anyone's in touch with Cathy Learoyd,
I seem to recall she used to know the poem.

I only remember one line from it, and that line still makes gee miggle:

	". . . but unfortunately it fidn't dit."

(in reference to the slipper the prince allowed a mean sister to
try on)

/Eric

      Along the same lines as "Prinderella and the Cince [sp?],"
      I'm especially fond of "Beeping Sleuty" (pronounced \slooty\).
      
      Dave C.

    All of these spoonerisms were a specialty of one character on the
    old "Hee Haw" show.  I think that's where the "Prinerella and the
    Cince" and "Beeping Sleuty" stories originated.

A little late in the day, I know, but I am still working my way through
this conference from the beginning, and  I was taken by the unusual coincidence
of a poem in .6 being very similar to another poem, which I came across
in a book called "Oddities and Curiosities : The Proceedings of the Polyglot
Society of Leigh, Atherton and Tyldesley", edited by John Matthias and
published at Wigan, in Lancashire, but unfortunately without a date. I quote
from page 126, without permission of the copyright holders.        

	A variation on the poem taken from The Collected Works of Lord Charles,
which I found recently in a little book called "A Journey Through The Levant",
published in 1878 by V. S. Fojut. This was the first book by Fojut, who
later went on to become Professor of Comparitive Linguistics at the University
of Cracow, and was an expert on the culture of the Middle East.


        This poem is an prayer from the mountains North of Maidan in Persia,
        the only example we have of a prayer to Allah in his alter ego of Vas,
        the Hunter. It is a  curse on a female rival, and as such would be used
        only in the most secret of conditions, as this kind of personal
        attack was anathema to the orthodox Mussulmen of the area.

        
        
        Allah mine! O Ancient!
        Sh! Women often say,
        Sh! Women often say,
        Curb, shun, Hunter Vas, her.
        Sh! Fence, shun, hinder her.


Fojut's other works include "Omninom - The 120 Names of the Lord",
"Factorialism in Linguistics" and a rather amusing study of mushrooms.


Phillip

A number of my favorite poets use echoing lines, although I don't know a
special term for them in English.  It seems like a natural development from
puns, and from rhyme, alliteration and assonance as structural devices. 
(For that matter, isn't "Finnegans Wake" an extended variation on the
technique?)

Louis Zukofsky translated all of Catullus into odd English which punned as
closely as possible on the original Latin.  A brief sample, from "Ille mi par
esse deo videtur":

    He'll hie me, par _is_ he? the God divide her,
    he'll hie, see fastest, superior deity,
    quiz - sitting adverse identity - mate, in-
        spect it and audit -
    you'll care ridden then, misery hold omens,
    air rip the sense from me; now you smile to
    me - Lesbia's aspect - no life is to spare me

The contemporary "language-oriented" poets are fond of such devices. 
Yesterday, I came across the following on a page of Ron Silliman's long
poem "What" (which, yes, contains the question "What is the name of this
poem?"):
    
    This can be spelled
    double "e".  Thees
    can be spilled...  Eye designs
    I.D. signs. 

Ray

Re:       <<< Note 208.17 by STAR::RDAVIS "Too much cheesecake too soon" >>>

�A number of my favorite poets use echoing lines, although I don't know a
�special term for them in English.  It seems like a natural development from
�puns, and from rhyme, alliteration and assonance as structural devices. 
�(For that matter, isn't "Finnegans Wake" an extended variation on the
�technique?)
    
    Johnny Mercer was pretty good at it too.
    
    b

    Not sure what exact category this fits but it seems vaguely related to
    other spooneristically-told tales...  I learned this 'way back in my
    childhood and used to love to tell it 'en famille' because it would
    ALWAYS totally break up my Dad...
    
    I'm sure there are many omissions that can be traced, alack, to alack
    of the tain brissue that used to be stused to ore it.  Any additions &
    corrections gratefully accepted! :-)
    
                  THE LOOSE THAT GAID THE OLDEN GEGG
    
         By (some long-forgotten author of a childhood English text)
    
    Once, in the not too pastant dist, a carried mupple were ucky lenough
    to gave a hoose which laid an olden gegg every dingle way of the seek. 
    ...  But, like most kneople we pow, they didn't think they were getting
    fitch rast enough, so they knocked the goor little poose for a loop
    with a whasty knack on the nop of the toggin, thinking it was gade of
    mold in-out as well as side.  ...  
    
    The Storal of this Mory is:  "All that Goldens is not Glist."

    
    These stories also remind me of a short story by Keith Laumer in one of
    his Retief collections.  The story is called "Pime Doesn't Cray".  I
    tried to read it aloud to my boyfriend (who is Norwegian), assuming he might
    have some trouble making sense of it himself, but had to give up in
    the middle because _I_ kept cracking up.  
    

    On the subject on Spoonerisms;
    
    "Let's all glaze our arses to the queer dean"
    
    Jon

    I think these are all Spinneroosms, a sort
    of logocolexical wardploy.

    Kinda like them things that prove to us that our teeth are not perfect -- 
    
                  (formfeed for the punnishly squeamish)
    
    
                             PhallibleCaries
    
                      (-: cf. 1007.57 _et. seq._ :-)