Conference thebay::joyoflex

I believe _Reader's Digest_ uses umlauts in words like cooperate.

I believe the word "naive" comes from the French, where the i has an umlaut. 
The umlaut sticks around because the pronunciation of the word is so different
than English rules would indicate.  This happens in a handful of other words,
such as resume' fiance'e, etc.  Don't think of it as an umlaut, but a "funny
pronunciation" mark.

-Mike

    	I think it is to indicate that two consecutive vowels are not
    combined, but pronounced separately. That is, the 'a' and 'i' are
    not combined as in 'rain' but separate like in 'camera internals'.
    It seems to be used that way in French, and would also fit with
    the difference between cooperate and cooper.
    
    		Dave

    Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the "umlaut" in English
    and French called a "dieresis"?
    
    	Jon

      Re .3
      
      Not exactly.  The umlaut and the dieresis have the same graphic
      (two dots arranged horizontally over a letter).  Some words
      in English have an umlaut ('umlaut' is sometimes spelled with
      one on the initial 'u'), and some words have a dieresis, but
      you can't distinguish them by looks alone, you have to judge
      which it is by the context.
      
      It seems to me that in fonts which do not have a dieresis (such
      as a VT100 ASCII font), people sometimes put a hyphen between
      the two vowels:  re-enter, co-opt, but not na-ive.
      
      Dave C.

    I was always under the impression English had no accent marks at
    all, and the only reason we ever used them was for words from other
    languages.  I've certainly never seen umlauts used in any dictionary.
    
    
    				-- edp

    re .4: and I've certainly never seen "umlaut" spelled with an umlaut,
    at least not in the original German... got a reference?
    
    					Val

    And I always thought that diuresis was what happened when you took
    those little pills that made you pee a lot.
    
    -bs
    

    Fascinating. My OED has all the words one usually sees with a dieresis
    (coordinate, cooperate, etc. (sorry, I'm on a 7-bit keyboard)) spelled
    with a hyphen. Well, I think I'll remember that for Scrabble!
    
    re .4: "Umlaut" with an umlaut? You must be pulling our (collective)
    leg! If it did, it wouldn't be pronounced "oom-lout," would it?
    
    (Hmm, Oom-lout. Must be an obnoxious tuba player in leiderhosen...)
    
    	Jon

I don't think words like "re-enter" and "co-operate" would have had umlauts
(or diereses) originally; the morpheme in the front is just a Latin prefix,
and Latin doesn't have such marks, does it?  I'll bet the marks were added
to aid pronunciation (the "funny pronunciation" theory already mentioned). 

According to a style guide I have (I'm an editor in Spit Brook), "reenter"
should be spelled without the hyphen.  Words that started with hyphens tend
to grow together as they become more common.  It happens with compound
words, too, not just with prefixes and words.  For instance, "lifestyle"
used to be "life-style" (I still see this occasionally), and before that,
"life style"!  The Chicago Manual of Style talks about this phenomenon.  I
usually prefer the solid spelling myself. 

By the way, what *is* the difference between an umlaut and a dieresis mark 
(if it's not in their appearance)?

	@V@

    re:.9
    
    From dictionary research (so don't blame me, I just work here),
    
    An umlaut is a diacritical mark which indicates that the vowel is
    pronounced differently from the way it would otherwise be pronounced.
    
    A dieresis is a diacritical mark which indicates that a vowel is
    separate from the one before it and not a double-vowel sound.
    
    For example, cooperate could conceivably use a dieresis.  There's
    a dieresis needed in Spanish, by the way, when the phoneme "gue"
    comes up, since "gue" normally means "hard ge".  Hence "Nicarag�ense"
    needs to dieresis since it's based on -agua and not like 'guerra',
    which has a silent u.
    
    Likewise, the German 'Sp�tlese' has an umlaut, since it is has a
    different sound from the standard one for 'spat-'.
    
    Thanks for getting this one going!  I didn't know the difference
    myself before this topic got me to look it up.
	fred

    The difference between the diaeresis (or dieresis as DECspell insists
    on spelling it) and the umlaut is this: The umlaut is a mark used in
    German to change the pronunciation of a vowel. Often (at least with
    "�") the vowel with the umlaut can be lexically replaced with the
    dipthong "oe" (again, in the case of "o"). Thus, one often sees a
    certain mathematician's name spelled either as "G�del" or "Goedel." The
    umlaut tells us that it is pronounced (sort of) "Ger - del" and not "Go
    - del." It is similar to the schloss "�" mark used in place of "ss."
    (Someone who knows more about German than I should verify these last
    couple details.) 
    
    The dieresis looks like an umlaut, but it is used in French and
    English. Its name comes from the Greek verb "to divide." It is used to
    indicate that a two vowels that you might think form a dipthong do not
    (No�l, na�ve, co�perate) or that a vowel that you might think should be
    silent is, in fact, pronounced (Bront�). 
    
    Thus, the dieresis in "co�perate" tells us that the work is pronounced
    "co - operate" and not "coop - er - ate" as phonics might lead one to
    believe. Using a hyphen gives the same effect. The phenomenon of
    hyphenated compound words coalescing into a single compound is similar.
    I would imagine that if the junction of the words has two vowels, then
    a dieresis would be called for. I would also think that "reenter" might
    be better off being "re-enter" or "re�nter" so that it doesn't get
    interpreted as "reen - ter," but that seems to be less likely a
    misinterpretation. Many co�perative business ventures capitalize on
    this very ambiguity by calling themselves "The Coop" or some similar
    name. 
    
    English, having no umlauts, picked up the dieresis from the French. No
    doubt that little incident in 1066 had something to do with it, too. 

    	Jon

    Lots of special marks are disappearing in English--I wonder if it's
    due to the proliferation of typewritten/word-processed input?  I'm
    sensitive to this because of my name: "Mc"'s used to be written
    with one or two lines under the "c"; that practice is disappearing
    because typewriters don't do it very well.  I was taught to sign
    my name with two lines, then one line, up to high school.  After
    that, I dropped the whole thing--because I learned to type. (I notice
    that there is an "�" symbol, but not an "underscore-c" symbol in
    the DEC compose set.)
    
    I was also taught to write "co�perate", not "cooperate", but I don't
    see the diacriticals much any more.  "Base-ball" used to be hyphenated;
    perhaps one day we'll also spell "wordprocessing"?  I heard somewhere
    that diacriticals came into use in Victorian times--it seems that
    the practice of using them is dying out, in English anyway.

      'Umlaut' is spelled without an umlaut.
      
      Dave C.

> 						    I heard somewhere
>     that diacriticals came into use in Victorian times--it seems that
>     the practice of using them is dying out, in English anyway.

    Re: .4
    
    > Some words in English have an umlaut, and some words
    > have a diaeresis ...

    Have you an example of an English word bearing an umlaut?
    
    In the UK, use of the diaeresis in words like co�p is negligible.
    We use a hyphen.

    Jeff.    

    Re: .4 and .15
    
    No never. Keep them out as it dont work on my keyboard.
    
    David

    
    Let me know if you run out, I have got plenty - just received a
    new delivery.
    

    Re: .15
    
    "coop" with a hyphen?  Like:
     
    	  -
    	coop
    
    ?

    "coop" with a hyphen:
    
    		Co-op   
    
    Many words beginning with the prefix "co-", followed by a vowel
    were once written with hyphens.  Many of these hyphenated words
    are now written "solidly" -- co-ordination is now coordination,
    co-operative is now cooperative, and so on.
    
    					andrew
   

    The hyphen is also used to distinguish between two words which would
    be spelled the same except for the hyphen, but are pronounced 
    differently.
    
    F'r instance:
    
    coop = where the chickens hang out
    co-op = A group enterprise
    
    For better or worse, hyphen usage is decreasing.
    
    -bs 
    \
     \
      [that is a decorative hyphen] 

      Today I saw a hyphen used to separate two CONSONANTS which
      otherwise would have been pronounced together.  The word was
      'mis-hit' (v.t., (I'm guessing) to hit wrongly or incorrectly).
      Sorry, I don't remember the entire sentence.  
      
      Dave C.

    Re: .22
    
    I spell it with hyphens, too, because I can't get mishit together.
                           
    -bs

An earlier remark noted the existance of � and � in the Dec
Multinational alphabet.  These are needed to mark gender
for Spanish ordinal numbers.


Martin.

    re -.20
    	Decspell, with the BRITISH dictionary, will (quite rightly in
    	my opinion) offer "co-operate" in exchange for "cooperate" and
    	"co-ordinate" for "coordinate". But then... it won't pass by
    	"organize" ( a perfectly valid if unusual English spelling of
    	"organise"), or "connexion" (if it's good enough for Jane Austen...)
    	without complaint.
                                   
    -john
    
    PS I think the use of little dots in 'coo(")perate' etc. was an
    American phenomenon, I've never seen it in English use.

    Re: .25
    
    > ..."organize" ( a perfectly valid if unusual English spelling
      of "organise")...
    
    It happens that neither of my dictionaries include the word
    "organise", therefore I must assume it is an Olde English ( :^)
    variation.  "Organize" is not only perfectly valid, but it is
    _the usual_ spelling of the word in American English.  So is the
    associated word "organization".
     

    Re: .26
    
        You raise (inadvertently I'm sure ( :^)) a good point -
    
    	when I said 'unusual English spelling' I used English in the
    meaning -
    		"pertaining to England and the residents thereof" 
    
    You presumed me to mean:
    
    		" the family of languages which includes that spoken
    		  in the USA"
    
    Perhaps we need a way of distinguishing the 2 meanings - after all,
    although there are over 200 million users of American English there
    are also 25 M Canadians, 55 Million + British, 15 Million Australians
    and countless Africans and Indians (etc...) who still conform (mainly) to
    English English(!), and who would find 'organise' in their OED and
    OCD and still put a 'u' in 'colour' etc.

    The intent of my challenging your comment was not to make an issue
    of the spelling of any particular word.  I'm more amused than I
    am disturbed by the variations in spelling and usage between the
    British vs. American English.  My reaction was to your use of the
    phrase "unusual English", particularly when you consider the audience
    represented by readers of this conference.  Perhaps it is not as
    drastic, but it could be somewhat akin to dropping an ethnic slur
    in the wrong company!
    
    I basically agree with your pupulation statistics on either side
    of the language usage business, and they are sufficiently large
    on either side to disarm any claim as to which version is _correct_.
    The more important consideration is to recogni(z)e the makeup of
    the present participants and to avoid casting unintended aspersions.
    
    I am reminded of a sign seen frequently in Germany when I was serving
    there in the U.S. Army:  "English Spoken - American Understood"
    
    Cheers! ( :^))
         

	re .25 et al.
    
    	Taking my phrase out of context you may have felt aspersions
    were intended, the context being DECspell and its BRITISH dictionary.
    
    What I meant to say:
    
    	       1. DECSPELL/MASTER=BRITISH recognizes 'organise'
                  but not 'organize'.
    
    	       2. I, and my dictionaries, think both are _correct_.
    
    	       3. In England (Britain...,but not Canada) 'organise' is the 
    		  more common spelling in use.
                                       
    	The comments were meant to reflect, if on anything, on the Decspell
    	BRITISH dictionary, not on any members of the audience. As a
    	Canadian of British extraction currently resident in Australia,
    	I have enough problems remembering which side of the road to
    	point my bonnet at. 

    re: .0 There are no umlauts in "english".  However, some of the
    french and german words have become so common as to have  become
    english words and the accent marks have been dropped, ALONG WITH
    THE ITALICS that should  be used to render words from non-english
    languages.
    
    Would you put (in italics) "r�sum�" on your resume?
    
    Nevertheless, it is a very interesting rule that you cite, and it
    certainly provides the novice reader with a helpful guide to
    pronounciation that they might otherwise miss.  Perhaps the DEC
    Multinational Character Set and the "compose" key will pre�mpt the
    casual rendering of certain words. (All we need is an italics
    keyboard:_)
    
    	RMM
    

    Re .30:
    
    > Would you put (in italics) "r�sum�" on your resume?
    
    No, but I wouldn't put "resume" on it, either.  I don't know why
    people do that.  Is there anything else which is so labeled?  How
    often do you receive letters that say "letter" at the top?  Are
    many books in the bookstore labeled "book"?  Perhaps you have a
    lamp marked "lamp", in case somebody forgets?
    
    
    				-- edp

      Re .31
      
      >Is there anything else which is so labeled?  How
      >often do you receive letters that say "letter" at the top?  
      
      Orders (military and judicial), technical notes, warrants,
      certificates are just some of the items which are so labelled.
      
      >Are many books in the bookstore labeled "book"?  
      
      Not many, but you can find blank books, note books, and day
      books.
      
      >Perhaps you have a lamp marked "lamp", in case somebody forgets?      

      See my note 144.2, please, for a similar ridiculous proposition.
      
      --
      
      I don't put the word 'resume' on my resume any more, but I used
      to.  When I did, I either wrote the accent marks in manually or
      had them added before printing.  My cousin, who is 21 years old,
      and now going to school to be an R.N. told me that they still
      teach putting the word on the document itself, with the accent
      marks.
      
      Dave C.

    Why is it that every time I come by this topic I think of walnuts?

    Re: -.1
    

    Re: -.1
    
    That should be lysdexia, shouldn't it?  :^)
    
    
    

    Re: .31

    			Is there anything else which is so labeled?  How
    	often do you receive letters that say "letter" at the top?  Are
    	many books in the bookstore labeled "book"?  Perhaps you have a
    	lamp marked "lamp", in case somebody forgets?
    
    Reminds me of those signs that read "POSTED.  NO TRESPASSING."

      Re .36
      
      I've even seen signs which just say "POSTED" without the
      admonition against trespassing even being on the sign.  Any day
      now, I expect to see a "POSTED SIGN" sign.
      
      Dave C.

    The city of Stamford CT requires boat owners to pay a tax, in exchange
    for which they are provided with a decal to put on the bow of the
    vessel.  This quaint little thing solemnly identifies itself as
    
    		CERTIFICATE OF DECAL
    
    			?

    Regarding several old notes on the use of the hyphen, and the
    gradual elision of the hyphen-
    
    Once upon a time we were told to go forth and multiply.  Every
    generation, the population was supposed to double, until there
    was no space available for growing food etc.  This rule was
    referred to colloquially by the requisite family size of four
    children and two parents, or "4-2", and eventually became the
    entire meaning of life.
    
    Then one day someone forgot the hyphen, and they got confused
    and couldn't figure out the meaning any more....

RE .39 and the "4-2" rule...

	:-)

-- Cathy    

    Is this related to the problem that some snakes aren't able to
    multiply, because they're adders?
    
    --bonnie

    ADDER,n. A species of snake. So called from its habit of adding
             funeral outlays to the other expenses of living.
    
    					--Ambrose Bierce

	Adders can multiply if you give them a table of logs

re hyphens and all that.

a while back i checked a lot of books about computer databases for some
reason that seemed important at the time.  i noticed they started as
"data base", made a transition to "data-base", and are now "database".

all in 30 years or less.

    Check out blackbird - which presumably collapsed into one word too long
    ago to matter much now.. (Incidentally, a female blackbird isn't a
    black bird).
    
    This is why I frequently refer to four editions of the COED (and
    as many other sources as I have time for).
    
    
    b