| Title: | The Joy of Lex |
| Notice: | A Notes File even your grammar could love |
| Moderator: | THEBAY::SYSTEM |
| Created: | Fri Feb 28 1986 |
| Last Modified: | Mon Jun 02 1997 |
| Last Successful Update: | Fri Jun 06 1997 |
| Number of topics: | 1192 |
| Total number of notes: | 42769 |
Related to the subject of non-sexist pronouns is the they/their
singular/plural debate. This is from net.nlang:
Newsgroups: net.nlang,net.women
Path: decwrl!sun!amdahl!gam
Subject: "he or she" - a grammatical problem solved
Posted: 2 Mar 86 23:37:15 GMT
Organization: Amdahl Corp, UTS Products Group
Keywords: he she they it
Summary: "they" can used in place of "he/she" (most times)
Xref: decwrl net.nlang:4062 net.women:9815
I am posting this in response to the re-arrisen controvery in net.nlang
about the use of 'they' and 'their' in such statements as: "Everyone
does as they think best" verses "Everyone does as he or she thinks best."
This is cross-posted to net.women as it might have some relevance to
those readers. Followups are directed to net.nlang, however.
The following is from "American Tongue and Cheek: A Populist Guide
to Our Language" by Jim Quinn.
The OED says of "their": "Often used in relation to a singular
substantive or pronoun denoting a person, after 'each',
'every', 'either', 'neither', 'no one', 'every one', etc.
Also so used instead of 'his' or 'her', when the gender
is inclusive or uncertain." Also "they", "them", in
the same way.
Amongh users cited, in a tradition that stretches back to the
fourteenth century, are Fielding, Goldsmith, Thackeray,
Walter Bagehot, Shaw, Chesterfield, Rusking, and Richardson.
In no case does the OED call this usage an error.... It
does say the usage is "not favoured by grammarians." But
it refers the reader to grammarian Otto Jespersen and his
defense of the usage. Jesperson mentions that the usage
can be found in Congreve, Defoe, Shelley, Austen, Scott,
George Eliot, Stevenson, Zangwill, and Oliver Wendell
Holmes, as well as Swift and Herber Spencer.
Jespersen points out that if you try to put the sentence
"Does anybody prevent you?" into another interrogative
formula, begining "Nobody prevents you", then "you will
perceive that 'Nobody prevents you, does he?' is too
definite, and you will therefore say (as Thackeray
does, 'The Story of Pendennis', II, p. 260), "Nobody
prevents you, do they?"
...[T]he OED does not say that the use of "they" and
"their" with singular antecedents is "a grammatical
error." The OED does not even say that the use is
"considered ungrammatical" (which is the OED's way of
warning readers that though there is nothing wrong
with a usage, there are lots of uninformed people ...
who think otherwise).
The OED simply notes the usage as correct.
I add From "The Evolution of the English Language", by
George H. McKnight, still more evidents. McKnight notes
that Richard Grant White, in "Every-day English",
complains about the fact that the British quite often
combine "them" and "their" and "they" with singular
antecedent, and adds:
The kinds of "misuse" here condemned in
American use, in British use are established
not only by long tradition but by current
practice. The awkward necessity so often
met with in American speech of using the
double pronoun "his or her" is obviated by
the "misused" of "their"....
McKnight then gives a long list of quotes illustrating
this point: Jane Austen, Thomas De Quincey, Matthew
Arnold, Cardinal Newman, James Stephens, Frank Swinnerton,
Lord Dunsany, Samuel Butler in "The Way of All Flesh",
and A. E. (Jane Austen, "Mansfield Park": "nobody put
themselves out of the way"; James Stephens, "The Crock
of Gold": "everybody has to take their chance.")
I have spent a long time on this single construction, but
I want to be very plain about this. If you go away from
this book with none of your cherished opinions about good
English changed, at least you must recognize there is NO
justification for attacking the use of plural pronouns
with singular antecedents when the sex is uncertain or
mixed. For example, says Bergen Evans:
Only the word "his" would be used in "every
soldier carried his own pack", but most people
would say "their" rather than "his" in
"everybody brought their own lunch". And it
would be a violation of English idiom to say
"was he?" in "nobody was killed, were they?"
The use of "they" in speaking of a single
individual is not a modern derivation of classical
English. It is found in the works of many
great writers including Malory ....
And another list, all of which we have heard before.
Again, from the OED: "The pronoun referring to 'every one'
[sometimes written as one word] is often plural: the
absence of a singular pronoun of common gender rendering
this violation of grammtical concord sometimes necessary."
--
Gordon A. Moffett ...!{ihnp4,seismo,hplabs}!amdahl!gam
~ Ah don't need no diamond ring ~
~ Ah don't need no Cadillac car! ~
~ Ah just wanna drink my Lone Star beer ~
~ Down in the Lightnin' bar! ~
| T.R | Title | User | Personal Name | Date | Lines |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 155.1 | Verses arrise! | VOGON::GOODENOUGH | Jeff Goodenough, IPG Reading-UK | Wed Mar 05 1986 11:05 | 4 |
Gordon A. Moffett should learn to spell before they pontificate
on the English language.
Jeff :-)
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| 155.2 | Whatever the OED Says | BEING::POSTPISCHIL | Always mount a scratch monkey. | Wed Mar 05 1986 17:51 | 11 |
Hmm . . .
Another cause of obscurity is that the writer is themselves not
quite sure of their meaning. They have a vague impression of
what they want to say, but have not, either from lack of mental
power or from laziness, exactly formulated it in their mind, and
it is natural enough that they should not find a precise
expression for a confused idea.
-- edp
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| 155.3 | ERIS::CALLAS | Jon Callas | Thu Mar 06 1986 10:54 | 141 | |
Here's some more, giving actual quotes:
Newsgroups: net.nlang
Path: decwrl!decvax!genrad!panda!talcott!harvard!seismo!mcvax!boring!steven
Subject: Re: Grammar and Spelling on the Net
Posted: 3 Mar 86 17:12:09 GMT
Organization: CWI, Amsterdam
[flames deleted -- J.C.]
Here we go again. Last June I posted an article quoting the Oxford English
Dictionary, and tens of worthy authors through the ages from the 1300's to
the present day, who have used 'they', 'them', 'theirs', etc as SINGULAR
gender-unspecific words. It is CORRECT English. It was only later
grammarians who tried to enforce the rule that they are plural words, and
force us to use 'he', etc. Luckily, most people have not followed their
dictates.
Illiterate? Shakespeare was just one of the many to use the form. Let
history be the judge.
Steven Pemberton, CWI, Amsterdam; [email protected]
--------------------------------------------------------
Here are the quotes from the OED again, for the doubters:
THEY
2. Often used in reference to a singular noun made universal by every, any,
no, etc., or applicable to one of either sex (= `he or she'). See Jespersen
Progress in Language 24.
1526 Pilgr. Perf. (W. de W. 1531) 163b, Yf,.a psalm scape ony persone, or a
lesson, or else yt they omyt one verse or twayne.
1535 FISHER Ways perf. Relig. ix. Wks. (1876) 383 He neuer forsaketh any
creature vnlesse they before haue forsaken them selues.
1749 FIELDING Tom Jones viii. xi, Every Body fell a laughing, as how could
they help it.
1759 CHESTERF. Lett. IV. ccclv. 170 If a person is born of a gloomy temper
..they cannot help it.
1835 WHEWELL in Life (1881) 173 Nobody can deprive us of the Church if they
would.
1858 BAGEHOT Lit.Stud. (1879) II.206 Nobody fancies for a moment that they
are reading about anything beyond the pale of ordinary propriety.
1866 RUSKIN Crown Wild Olives 38 (1873) 44 Now, nobody does anything well
that they cannot help doing.
THEM
2. Often used for `him or her', referring to a singular person whose sex is
not stated, or to anybody, nobody, somebody, whoever, etc.
1742 RICHARDSON Pamela III. 127 Little did I think..to make a..complaint
against a Person very dear to you,..but dont let them be so proud..as to
make them not care how they affront everybody else.
1853 Miss YONGE Heir of Redclyffe xxliv, Nobody else..has so little to
plague them.
1874 DASENT Half a life II. 198 Whenever anyone was ill, she brewed them a
drink.
THEMSELVES
5. In concord with a singular pronoun or sb. denoting a person, in cases
where the meaning implies more than one, as when the sb. is qualified by a
distributive, or refers to either sex: = himself or herself.
a. 1464 Rolls of Parlt. V. 513/2 Inheritements, of which any of the seid
persones..was seised by theym self, or joyntly with other.
c 1489 CAXTON Sonnes of Aymon i. 39 Eche of theym..make theymselfe redy.
1533 MORE Apol. 55b, Neyther Tyndale there nor thys precher..hath by theyr
maner of expounyng..wonne them self mych wurshyp.
y. 1600 SHAKS. Lucr. 125 Eury one to rest themselues [ ed. 1594 himselfe]
betake.
1654-66 EARL ORRERY Parthen. (1676) 147 All that happened, which every one
assured themselves, would render him a large sharer in the general joy.
1874 DASENT Half a life 3 Every one likes to keep it to themselves as long
as they can.
THEIR
3. Often used in relation to a singular sb. or pronoun denoting a person,
after each, every, either, neither, no one, every one, etc. Also so used
instead of `his or her', when the gender is inclusive or uncertain. (Not
favoured by grammarians.)
13.. Cursor M. 389 (Cott.) Bath ware made sun and mon, Aither wit ther ouen
light.
c 1420 Sir Amadace (Camden) 1, Iche mon in thayre degre.
14.. Arth. & Merl. 2440 (Kolbing) Many a Sarazen lost their life.
1545 ABP. PARKER Let. to Bp. Gardiner 8 May, Thus was it agreed among us
that every president should assemble their companies.
1563 WYNGET Four Scoir Thre Quest. liv, A man or woman being lang absent fra
thair party.
1643 TRAPP Comm. Gen. xxiv. 22 Each Countrey bath their fashions, and
garnishes.
1749 FIELDING Tom Jones vii, xiv Every one in the House were in their beds.
1771 GOLDSM. Hist. Eng III. 241 Every person..now recovered their liberty.
1845 SYD. SMITH Wks. (1850) 175 Every human being must do something with
their existence.
1848 THAKERAY Van. Fair xli A person can't help their birth.
1858 BAGEHOT Lit. Studies (1879) II. 206 Nobody in their senses would
describe Gray's `Elegy' as [etc.].
1898 G.B SHAW Plays II Candida 86 It's enough to drive anyone out of their
senses.
Other quotes (Not OED)
SHAKESPEARE God send everyone their heart's desire.
THAKERAY No one prevents you, do they?
GEORGE ELIOT I shouldn't like to punish anyone, even if they'd done me
wrong.
WALT WHITMAN ..everyone shall delight us, and we them.
ELIZABETH BOWEN He did not believe it rested anybody to lie with their head
high...
LAWRENCE DURREL You do not have to understand someone in order to love them.
DORIS LESSING And how easy the way a man or woman would come in here, glance
around, find smiles and pleasant looks waiting for them, then wave and sit
down by themselves.
[ And let's not forget Oscar Wilde's "Experience is the name everyone
gives to their mistakes." -- J.C.]
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