Conference thebay::joyoflex

The period always goes inside the quotation marks.  In technical
documentation we must sometimes break this rule, for example:

  In response to the prompt, type "FOO".

...lest the user actually type the period and cause the software to
barf.  But it's better to rewrite the sentence so that the literal
doesn't appear at the end of the sentence.

JP

Punctuation inside the quotes is standard practice, but it annoys the 
picayune, logical, parsing mind of the computer professional.  Even our
own documentation is inconsistent, but most DEC editors put the punctuation
inside, but many writers (myself included) and most developers (those who
write at all) put the punctuation inside or outside the quotes based on 
logic.

BTW, lots of novice users, when faced with the statement

   In response to the prompt, type "FOO".

will type the quotation marks too.

We're bumping up here against the centuries of conventions employed
by typographers and the consistency sought by computer professionals
more familiar with mathematical notation.

.1 is correct.

Pat Sweeney

The trouble is that that it is only periods that follow this rule, so

Have you read Franz Kafka's "The Metamorphosis"? is correct, while

Have you read Franz Kafka's "The Metamorphosis?" is incorrect.

Long before I was a "computer professional", I thought this rule was one of
the stupidest rules in the English language (rivaled only by the prohibition
against ending sentences with prepositions). Unless I find myself in a
situation where strict grammatical and stylistic rules are to be adhered to,
I will *never* put punctuation within quotes if the puncuation is not an
actual part of the quoted material.

--- jerry

But jerry, that's not true!

Have you read Franz Kafka's "The Metamorphosis"? 

is incorrect.  All punctuation, not only periods, goes inside the quotes.

JP

Sorry, .5, but .4 is correct.  Question marks are 
the exception to the rule -- if the quotation includes them, put 
them inside.  If the question is your own, keep it outside the 
quotation.

MM

A contemporary authority on punctuation, Karen Elizabeth Gordon, has written a
book, "The Well Tempered Sentence, A Punctuation Handbook for the Innocent, the
Eager, and the Doomed." I quote 

"Only when the question mark is part of a quoted or parenthetical material does
it go inside the quotation marks, parenthesis, or brackets." 

"Quotation marks enclose direct quotations and dialogue." 

"Quotation marks enclose the titles of short stories and poems, chapters,
essays, articles, television, and radio programs, and short musical
compositions.  Periods and commas go inside quotation marks even when they are
not part of the title." 

Her example: 

Do you agree with Proust that "each of us finds lucidity only in those ideas
which are in the same state of confusion as his own"? 

Do authorities contradict each other on this point? 

Pat Sweeney 

Not to divert the attention from this, but what about the extensive quote, id
est the one that runs on through the end of one and into the beginning of
another paragraph.  The opening quote is marked, the quote continues, therefore
the quote is not closed at the end of the paragraph, yet at the beginning of
the next paragraph it is necessary to use an opening quotation mark to signal
that the quote continues.

Karen Elizabeth Gordon says 

"For passages of one hundred or more words, indent and single-space the 
quotation and do not enclose it in quotation marks."

"The Well-Tempered Sentence", it's a good book.

Pat Sweeney

You learn something new every day...

I beg your pardon, jerry.  And here are some examples of the correct way:

   He asked, "Are we going now?"

   Why did he say, "We are leaving now"?


JP

Pat, may I ask where this "Well Tempered Sentence" may be purchased?  How much
does it cost?

I have an interesting book that I dug out over the weekend, it is on the proper
usage of the most commonly misused English.  I was glancing through it and I
saw 'ain't.'  I learned that it was originally a contraction for am not, and
that even then it was never accepted into the language.  The book also sights
amn't, being along the same idea of ain't, in both the meaning and status of
acceptance.  The book is quite liberal in stating that even the very educated
freely use 'ain't,' but it is used in such a manner that it is known that the
user is being somewhat sarcastic.  It brought to mind a Spanish professor once
telling the class not to pick up the slang from the native speakers of Spanish,
those who had such exposure, since it is quite proper for we, as native
speakers, to use ain't, but we know when, and it is not usually done by
educated people, save for when they use it for emphasis.

Also mentioned in this book was the proper usage of who versus whom.  The
author chose to take the liberty of saying that if in doubt, use who, since
more than half the time who is going to be the proper choice, and it is being
accepted into commonly spoken English here in the United States.  He went on to
say that one would be less likely to appear ignorant by using who in lieu of
whom rather than whom in lieu of who.

When a quotation which should end with a period does not end the sentence 
containing it, the period is replaced by a comma, which is placed within
the quotation marks.

"All good boys deserve fun," said the piano teacher.

Exclamation points, like question marks, go inside the quotation marks if
they belong to the quotation, otherwise outside.

Dave C.

Any paired punctuation marks, including quotation marks, parentheses,
and brackets (and probably more), when enclosing more than a paragraph
have the opening mark repeated at the beginning of each subsequent
paragraph.

Dave C.

Is the following usage of a question mark inside of quotation marks correct?
	Why did he say, "Can we leave now?"
I'd just like to confirm this.

Also, Dave C. (reply 10) did a good job of rounding out this discussion with his comment on changing a period to a comma at the end of a quote when the 
sentence has not ended. I was reminded that I need to accept grammatical rules
with more flexibility (Like using opening quotes at each paragraph of a 
continuing quotation).
	It also reminded me of previous replies which I agreed with: It is 
sometimes more logical to place punctuation outside of quotes. Ex: He referred to the boys as his "little helpers".

Re:  #12.

  Isn't that "all good boys do fine," versus "all good boys deserve fudge"?
That is always what my piano teaher told me...

re .-1
Somehow I doubt that's what your piano teacher said. Your teacher might have
said, "*Every* good boy..." (emphasis mine). If your teacher said, "All good
boys..." then I hope you found a better teacher.

"Erk!" said Dave, when confronted with his own error, "I misquoted my piano 
teacher."  "She really said," he continued, "'Every good boy deserves fun.'"

I'll make a guess about the situation where a quoted question ends a question:
The question mark goes inside the quotation and serves a dual purpose in the
same way that a period serves a dual purpose when ending a quoted statement 
which ends a statement.  It'd look foolish to have two question marks. 

Dave "No nit too small" C.

Well-Tempered Sentence is a current book in print and may be purchased
in most fine bookstores for about $7.00 in hardcover, paperback is not
available.

Pat Sweeney

Mea culpa!  I was looking at the " all good boys..." and I was thinking that
something looked mighty strange, but being dyslectic, I did not pay much
attention to it.  I did not learn to read music by notes, but by patterns,
as I have learned to read many things, since I am dyslectic.  I memorize
telephone numbers by patterns, and when I must switch between a touch tone and
rotary dial phone I sometimes discover that I have not learned a certain number
on both, but only on one style.  My piano teacher would not be suprised that I
quoted the misquote, she has heard me say many a strange thing.  I tend to coin
new words while speaking because I will think of two different words to
describe something and I end up saying them as one word rather than one and the
other.  

But, Dean, (what IS your first name, anyway), why are YOU apologizing for
quoting MY misquotation?  I was the one who flubbed it, not you.

Dave C.

My first name is Dean (my last name is one of those really generic ones).  The
reason I am apologizing is I should have caught it!  I mean, I read music!!
Ah, I am so embarrassed.

       No problem guys; all is forgiven. As a fellow dyslexic, I have
       done worse myself. I'm quite entertained. I have a good deal or
       trouble reading the quotes in the New Yorker. The error
       correction circuits in my brain are good enough that I often have
       to read the darn things three or four times to get the joke!

       Dyslexics of the world, untie!

                                           Jon

I'm fairly certain that Gordon is also the author of "The Intransitive
Vampire", a book on basic grammar and sentence structure. I have to admit
that I haven't gone through it yet; I bought it mostly for the title,
and because I found many of her examples amusing. (In keeping with the
title of the book, she uses sentences like, "It shambled up the stairs,"
and "'Hello,' said Alice, lurking beneath the desk.")

[I have no idea if the above are correctly punctuated, or even if they
appear in "...Vampire" verbatim; but the book's examples do tend to favor
the grim! I did fairly well in all things English in school, but would
have adored a book like that for high school grammar...]

-beth "gory details" ravan

Pardon me, Beth, but the title of the other Gordon book is "The Transitive
Vampire."  I gave both books as Christmas presents to a friend of mine who
is going to be an English teacher.  I found them informative and hilarious,
and intend to get copies for myself someday.  I ordered them from a catalog
sent to me by Cahill and Company, an interesting company located somewhere
in New York (state).  They carry those books plus a bunch of other
interesting ones, plus interesting stationery (note cards with Shakespeare
quotes and such), plus nice prints, plus various and sundry other things.
If anyone's interested, I can post the address here the next time I
receive a catalogue from them (I don't have the last one and I don't
remember the address offhand).  One complaint I have against them is that
it takes AGES for them to send the stuff you order (like 6 weeks at least).
I don't know why this is, unless they have to wait for orders themselves.

							-- Nina

P.S.  I just noticed that I said "catalog" and "catalogue."  I actually
prefer the latter spelling, but used the first, I guess, because it has
become a habit born of technical writing.  How do others feel about this
sort of thing -- that is, "dialogue" vs. "dialog," "catalogue" vs.
"catalog," and so on?

I prefer catalogue, dialogue, realise, colour, et al.  But the reason is
esoteric.

It's surprising that, in 25 replies, no-one has pointed out the 
transatlantic connection -- as someone usually does.  On this (Eastern) 
side of the pond, practically all quotING punctuation goes outside the 
quotation marks EXCEPT WHEN QUOTING SPEECH.  QuotED punctuation always 
goes inside.  Examples:

    The word "good", unlike "well", resembles "food". 
or: The word 'good', unlike 'well', resembles 'food'. 

    There is a town called "Westward Ho!" 
or: There is a town called "Westward Ho!".  (I prefer a '.' at the end!)

    "Please," Alice said to the vampire, "take your teeth off me." 

    He muttered brokenly, "If only, if only."  (The full stop [period] 
    						was not in the speech.)

Also, of course, hereabouts the "catalogUE" forms are 'de rigeur' -- 
except sometimes in computing.

Cheers.   Gabriel.

Commas and periods always go inside quotation marks, regardless
of logic, solely because of typographic convention in the U.S.A.

I suppose that's just as well. That way, typesetters and copyeditors don't have
to think any more than they can spell.

--- jerry

Just because it's convention doesn't it's right. I am reminded of the 
"Two Ronnies" (?) sketch in which one of them says,

	"I see, you're afraid that if we do the right thing this time
	 we might have to do the right thing again."

Jon

RE .24 and others that referred to the books by Karen Elizabeth Gordon:

Yesterday I got Cahill & Company's winter catalogue, from which you can order
Gordon's books.  In case you've forgotten, the titles are:

	The Well-Tempered Sentence:  A Punctuation Handbook for the Innocent,
				     the Eager, and the Doomed

	The Transitive Vampire:  A Handbook of Grammar for the Innocent, the
				 Eager, and the Doomed

"The Well-Tempered Sentence" is $7:95; "The Transitive Vampire" is $9.95.
I don't know why there's a difference in price, since they're about the same
size (hardcover, too).

To get this catalogue, write to:

		Cahill & Company
		145 Palisade St.
		Dobbs Ferry, NY 
			  10522

Or call (914) 693-3600 between 9 AM and 4 PM (Eastern Time) Monday-Friday.
(Sorry, there's no toll-free number.)
							-- Nina

re: .11

I remember Allistar Cook, while hosting the Lord Peter Whimsey TV movies,
remarking that many readers had written in criticizing the use of 'ain't' by
Lord Peter. He went on to point out that during the Twenties, at least, the
upper classes of England did use the word as a reasonable contraction of
'am not'. I have no other sources on this but it struck me as interesting
at the time.

Jack Wickwire

In any event, Sayers wrote Wimsey's saying "ain't," so the adapters of the
novels are rather obligated to use "ain't," if for no other reason, ain't
they?

Thanks for that tidbit. I had noticed it in the novels and appreciate the
explanation.

	Jon

All this talk of quotes reminds me of an old puzzle.  How should this text be
punctuated?

	John while Jim had had had had had had had had had had had
	a better affect on the teacher

The answer?

	John, while Jim had had "had," had had "had had."  "Had had" had had
	a better affect on the teacher.

There was another one that went along with it, trying to end a sentence with
as many prepositions as possible.  It spoke of events in Australia, and ended
with something like, "down under for by of ..."  Sorry I don't remember it.

Tim

See note 98 for multiple prepositions.

Dave C.

    .33 reminded me of another sentence that has the same word repeated
    several times.  I first saw this in the Reader's Digest, I don't
    remember the date.
    
    The first one won one one dollar bill.
    
    			- - -  Karl

    Re: .24
    
    I had, and may still have copies of a quarterly publication
    of Analog Devices, Inc., extolling the virtues of their
    latest products. The title... Analog Dialogue  !
    
    ...rdp.
    

re:.6,
    
>Long before I was a "computer professional", I thought this rule was one of
>the stupidest rules in the English language (rivaled only by the prohibition
>against ending sentences with prepositions). 

    I just noticed this.  The rival prohibition does not exist in the
    English language.  I thought this mistake should be attended to.
    Lest one accept alleged prohibition as valid, please note its origins
    via note 142.0, enumereted statement 2.
    
    But the base topic's rule about punctuation _is_ annoying.

    <--(.37)--(
    
    Actually, I think the "rival prohibition" does exist, and was the
    basis for Churchil making some statement ending "...up with which
    I shall not put".  (Yes he was satirising the rule and no I don't
    remember the whole quote.)  
    
    I think S&W consider it a silly rule also.
    
    					=maggie 

    As a matter of fact, I know of no reputable authority who doesn't think
    it a silly rule. Some time ago I put in a quote from one of Sayers'
    essays on language. She relates the history of these rules and has some
    interesting invective for people who defend this rule (the word
    "jackanapes" springs to mind).
    
    	Jon 

    Well, it's a long time since the last answer to this note, so let
    me put in my bit:
    
    Re .5: suppose the book were entitled "The Metamorphosis?"; would
    one write "have you read "The Metamorphosis?"?" or "have you read
    "The Metamorphosis??"".
    
    Re .12, .15, .16: I seem to remember that the usual English quotation
    is "every greedy boy deserves flogging".
    
    I agree with .26 as far as the UK is concerned. Another related
    topic is whether the puntuation goes inside parentheses. I have
    adopted a rule of thumb on this: if the parentheses enclose the
    sentence, then put the fullstop inside the closing parenthesis,
    otherwise outside. Examples:
    
    (I think that must be the answer.)
    
    That's it (the answer, I mean).
    
    I notice that since typesetters were abolished at The Times (see
    VNS passim), and journalists now type their input directly, this
    same convention is (almost always) used.

    Re .40:
    
    One would write "Have you read 'The Metamorphosis?'?". 
    
    
    				-- edp