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Conference taveng::bagels

Title:	BAGELS and other things of Jewish interest
Notice:	1.0 policy, 280.0 directory, 32.0 registration
Moderator:	SMURF::FENSTER

Created:	Mon Feb 03 1986
Last Modified:	Thu Jun 05 1997
Last Successful Update:	Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:	1524
Total number of notes:	18709

1519.0. "Thou shalt not kill" by CSC32::J_CHRISTIE (Spigot of pithiness) Tue Apr 15 1997 22:17

It is my relatively recent understanding that the commandment "Thou shalt not
kill" would have been understood by the receiving Hebrew people as "Thou shalt
not kill one of your own people."  Killing someone outside the covenant would
not been considered quite the same thing, and the commandment really isn't as
universal as we've been led to believe.

What is the concensus here about how the ancients would have understood it?

And yes, I am trying to get clarification for a topic in another conference.

Richard

T.R	Title	User	Personal Name	Date	Lines
1519.1	Don't "murder"	CADSYS::GROSS	The bug stops here	`Tue Apr 15 1997 23:11`	9
	My understanding is that a more accurate translation would be "don't murder". That is why war, criminal execution, and self-defense are permitted. I never heard that killing of gentiles was not considered murder, though I can think of biblical passages that would support such a theory. Along these lines, I often wonder about the scope of "love thy neighbor". Dave
1519.2		TAV02::JEREMY		`Wed Apr 16 1997 10:43`	5
	No, there's no such interpretation in the Jewish tradition, and I'd question the motives of anyone suggesting otherwise. Yehoshua
1519.3	I would welcome even more, of course	CSC32::J_CHRISTIE	Spigot of pithiness	`Wed Apr 16 1997 19:30`	6
	.1 & .2 I thank you for your input. Richard
1519.4	From mail.jewish	COVERT::COVERT	John R. Covert	`Tue Apr 22 1997 02:38`	18
	Date: Thu, 21 Jul 1994 09:17:04 -0400 From: Sean Engelson <[email protected]> Subject: R.Ts.`H (the 6th commandment) Regarding the proper translation of the sixth commandment, I think that the best translation for the shoresh (word root) R.Ts.`H (as in "rotsea`h") would be "to kill a human being". This is contrasted with H.R.G ("laharog") which more generally means to kill. First, it seems that, in the Torah at least, the latter is used as a default, with the first used either when the specificity is needed (as in the commandment) or for stylistic reasons ("yirtsa`h et harotsea`h"). According to this, the commandment prohibits killing people period. However, in those cases where we have a separate mandate to kill someone (eg, beth din, or rodeph) we can apply the principle of `aseh do`heh lo' ta`aseh (a positive commandment pushes aside a prohibition) to show that the 6th commandment doesn't apply. Kakh nir'eh li. -Shlomo-
1519.5		COVERT::COVERT	John R. Covert	`Wed Apr 23 1997 19:11`	14
	Elsewhere, Richard has indicated that the claim is (allegedly) in John Spong's book "Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism." I would consider as highly suspect any information obtained from John Spong, the Episcopal Bishop of Newark (who many consider to be acting in notoriously heretical and troublemaking ways). His views have been condemned by many orthodox biblical scholars. To counter Spong's spurious claim, see "A Philosophy of Mizvot" by Gersion Appel, pp 124-127, for the rabbinic view on divine laws which are accessible to reason and therefore binding on all nations. /john