Conference taveng::bagels

Juan,

There are obviously no words to deal with this kind of tragedy
and outrage. I feel for your personal loss and pray that G-d
avenge the blood of the kedoshim le'eineinu, and may we be 
rid of the curse of the Nazis, Amalekites, Ishmaelites and all 
the other Jew-hating beasts once and for all.

The tragedies that are befalling us day in and day out must
have some purpose--if only we knew what. The fact is that
our generation has experienced a myriad of miracles which
countless generations could only dream of--and tragedies worse
than their worst nightmares. Is it all chance, all a monstrous
practical joke being played on our venerable nation, or is there
a lesson? And if so, what?

Unfortunately, I have no answers. I can but mourn with the entire
congregation of mourners of Zion and Jerusalem. But what I do know
is that Jewish history is consistent to a tee. I remember learning
the Bible as a child, reading of the exploits of our ancestors--
of the ecstasy of the unprecedented miracles they experienced and
the shock at their abysmal backslidings and defeats. Reading the
Books of Joshua and Judges, for instance, one literally feels like
screaming--why didn't the silly so-and-sos learn once and for all
that they would fall in defeat if they misbehaved? And yet, after
each military victory they once again returned to their arrogance
and complacency--until the next defeat. A roller-coaster--a veritable
Scream Machine.

Not too long ago the Jews of Berlin were sitting on top of the world;
they were successful, they were educated, they were in one of the
most advanced societies the world has known. The old Jewish ways
--in fact their very Jewishness itself--was the target of their own
derision, despised and spat upon. 50% of them converted to Christianity
of their own accord in the generations following Mendelssohn. Where did
German hatred arise from? I don't know, but I do know that their 
arguments were made much more believable in the face of the blazing
self-hatred of the "enlightened" Jews themselves.

I heard a rabbi on the radio (I didn't catch his name) comment on
the lamentation of both Moses and Jeremiah, "eicha?" in contrast
to "madua?" The latter means "why?"; the former means "how?" Ours
is not to ask why--the Divine ways are indeed mysterious and beyond
our capacities. But in the face of misfortune and calamity we must
ask ourselves--how? How come? What is the source of this evil, what
is the background, what is the history? Although we may still
not arrive at all the answers, we at least are asking the right
questions.

May the holy martyrs rest in Paradise, and may we experience the
comfort and joy prophesied for us speedily and forevermore.

Yehoshua

    
    
    
    (from .1)
    
    >>Reading the
    >>Books of Joshua and Judges, for instance, one literally feels like
    >>screaming--why didn't the silly so-and-sos learn once and for all
    >>that they would fall in defeat if they misbehaved? And yet, after
    >>each military victory they once again returned to their arrogance
    >>and complacency--until the next defeat.
    >> .
    >> .
    >> .
    >>
    >>Not too long ago the Jews of Berlin were sitting on top of the world;
    >>they were successful, they were educated, they were in one of the
    >>most advanced societies the world has known. The old Jewish ways
    >>--in fact their very Jewishness itself--was the target of their own
    >>derision, despised and spat upon. 50% of them converted to
    Christianity
    >>of their own accord in the generations following Mendelssohn. Where
    did
    >>German hatred arise from? I don't know, but I do know that their
    >>arguments were made much more believable in the face of the blazing
    >>self-hatred of the "enlightened" Jews themselves.
    
    Yehoshua,
    
    Judging by the above statements, I believe you are saying
    that those who were inside or nearby the Amia building in
    Beunos Aires two days ago may have "misbehaved" in some way.
    
    Am I right?
    
    Janet
             

Re: .2

>    Judging by the above statements, I believe you are saying
>    that those who were inside or nearby the Amia building in
>    Beunos Aires two days ago may have "misbehaved" in some way.

G-d forbid. Although the tragedy is obviously most acute for the
kedoshim and their families themselves, it is and was an attack
against every Jew, and is therefore a most personal loss for each
and every one of us. A calamity of this proportion cannot come and
go without each individual Jew being shaken to his core and examining
and reexamining his deeds and actions and vowing to improve what
can be improved. My point was that when we--as a people--become
complacent and self-satisfied, even in the face of massive assimilation,
intermarriage, a loss of all Jewish and even secular Zionist values...
then no prophet is needed to know that evil tidings are R"L not far away
to rouse us from our slumber.

This does not of course mitigate the responsibilty of the sub-human
perpetrators (and their millions of moral and financial backers in
the Middle East and elsewhere), may their names be blotted out. They
will receive their due in due course. But as Jews and humans, we must
look for meaning and purpose in every event; the practical lesson or
lessons which we can apply to our own lives.

Yehoshua

    <flame_on>
    
    re .1 and .3
    
    Yehoshua,
    
    Oh, I understand now.
    According to you, the bombing in B.A. did not occur because
    of what the locals did or
    did not do, but rather because of the sins of the whole Jewish world,
    save those (self)righteous ones who have not assimilated, have 
    not intermarried,
    have not lost their Jewish values or "even" secular Zionist
    values. etc. etc.
    
    Your replies to Juan-Carlos' original message have
    saddened my greatly, Yehoshua, and I shudder to think what you
    would have to say about the Holocaust.
    
    IMHO, you have not responded to the tragedy in B.A. with compassion;
    instead, you have used it as a step-stool for getting up on your soap-box.
    Next time, try this notes conference:
    
                                       
        Discussion Forum - General      PEAR::SOAPBOX
    
    Janet
    
    <flame_off>
    
    [EOB]
            
            

Juan,
I have no words to express the anger and the pain that I felt when I heard of
the criminal attempt in Buenos Aires.
Once again the ennemies of peace, who are not able to stop the process which is 
going on in Middle East despite all difficulties that it finds, show 
their true face: the old, bloody mask of the antisemitism.
And again this happens in the almost total indifference of the world; the TV
coverage in Italy was about the same (in duration and words) that they 
would have used if the house were blown up for an accident like a leak in 
the gas pipe.
They presented the building destroyed as a seat of a Jewish association for 
medical care. I see from your note that it was much more. Can you please write
down a description of what did that house represented? I would like to write 
a letter to newspapers because from your note I understand that the 
attempt was aimed not only at destroying Jewish lifes, but also at destroying
the main community building, the books, the archives, therefore at destroying
simbols and components of the Jewish identity. 
Shalom
Donatella

I'm sure Yehoshua cab defend himself, but I think that Janet's attack is way
out of line.

I don't think Yehoshua meant to be self righteous at all. He has stated one of
the most fundamental aspects of our religion.  

According to Jewish philosophy NOTHING is left directly to fate and NOTHING
happens without reason and NOTHING is random. Jewish philosophy strongly
propones deep interperspection both with regard to tragedy and and joy. Of
course this interperspection will manifest itself in radically different
behaviour and/or thoughts. 

It is true that human nature is such that people (present company included)
tend to take good for granted. When was the last time you thought to yourself
"Why was I granted this good" after something good occurred to you? Yet, when
was the last time you didn't think "What did I do to deserve this bad" when
something bad occurred?

The Talmud states "Just as we make a blessing on good so to do we make a
blessing on bad". Noone in their right mind would ever conceive that these two
blessings be identical. In the case of good we absolutely bless the good
vis-a-vis Hakodesh Baruch Hu who granted us this good. In the case of bad we
merely bless Hakodesh Baruch Hu without direct referrence to the bad. 

This topic cannot be adequately dealt with within the limitations of notes. 

Needless to say, the tragedy in Buenos Aires is immense. Different people
respond to it in very different ways, as is the case with all facits of life.

Yehoshua was expressing his sorrow and indignation in the manner that he feels
is right for him. Bashing him for this expression serves no purpose other than
to compound the tragedy itself.

Thanks,

Cb.

  

>   According to you, the bombing in B.A. did not occur because
>   of what the locals did or
>   did not do, but rather because of the sins of the whole Jewish world,
>   save those (self)righteous ones who have not assimilated, have 
>   not intermarried,
>   have not lost their Jewish values or "even" secular Zionist
>   values. etc. etc.

I re-read jem/Yehoshua's reply and I don't find any exemption for the
Orthodox. In fact, he probably holds self-righteousness way up there
as one of the sins to which he refers. Jem is simply expressing the
theological view that events are not random. Instead everything comes from
G-d, obeys G-d's will, and expresses G-d's purpose. For a different point
of view you can read Harold Kushner's "Why Bad Things Happen to Good People";
but Kushner isn't Orthodox.

What the present tragedy means, in the theological sense, no one can tell at
this time but it will become clear in the future. People cannot look upon G-d's
face, but can only get a glimpse of G-d's back as G-d passes by.

Dave

I won't comment on Juan's reasoning.  My $.02 is:

Buenos Aires is the act of people(?) -- not God.
Good deeds are their own reward.
Evil deeds corrupt the individual and are in themselves self-destructive
(not to say they shouldn't be severely punished).

As I learned Judaism (originally from an Orthodox Ghetto perspective) 
what we do is our own decision.  We do not believe in fatalism nor is 
some evil done to us the result of "sin" we commited.

One of the things I love most about Judaism is that is so hyman based.
We can change the course of what is to happen by our deeds (or lack 
thereof) and we can and should take pride in the good that we do.
Likewise, evil deeds are those of people.  God is all-seeing but we 
needn't invoke him for everything.  WE are reponsible for what WE do and 
criminals are responsible for WHAT they do.

Juan is suffering internally and I sympathize.  It appears that he has 
found a way to ease that sorry to xome extent.  Good.  That works for 
him.  Please, however, don't universalize that reaoning to ALL Jews and 
their set of beliefs.

Shelly

Thanks for the words of defense, guys. I had already written back to Janet
off-line about her very puzzling responses (IMO, at least) to my mourning
and search for meaning in catastrophe. 

One small note: following the massacre in February, the airwaves of the 
BBC were ceaselessly flooded with details of the deed, ferocious condemnations
of all things Israeli and "predictions" of retribution on the part of the
Arabs. In contrast the present atrocity has gotten next to no coverage. The
implied message from Royal Radio: no news is *good* news. 

Yehoshua

    It appears that the fanatics are working overtime. Yesterday 
    two bombs went off in London. The first outside the Israeli Embassy, 
    and the second outside Balfour House. 
    
    According to todays paper, "A woman terrorist said to be of 
    mediterranean appearance penetrated security in one of the most 
    heavily guarded streets in Britain yesterday to detonate a 30lb 
    car bomb outside the Israeli embassy and signal the return of 
    Middle East terrorism to the streets of London". 
    
    The third paragraph says, "Israel immediately blamed Islamic terrorists
    for the bomb, which injured 14 people. Scotland Yard said it was in
    touch with detectives investigating the bombing of a Jewish charity 
    in Buenos Aires on July 18 that killed at least 95 people." 
    
    Latter in the night/morning the second bomb exploded. 
    
    Regarding the 'one small note' in .-1 of Jeremy, this has made the lead
    item in all the papers today, pushing off what's going on in Rwanda.
    So, is there an implied message? I don't think so. It's just more 
    newsworthy. (At least here in England, given destruction, that 
    Kensington Palace was damaged, and shoppers fled screeming from nearby 
    Kensington High Street ). 
    
    Lets hope they catch those responsible.
    
    Malcolm 
    

re .10
>    car bomb outside the Israeli embassy and signal the return of 
>    Middle East terrorism to the streets of London". 

Lovely little euphemism - "Middle East terrorism".  

Why don't they call a bloody spade a spade?  Might offend some people, huh?

>Lovely little euphemism - "Middle East terrorism".  
>
>Why don't they call a bloody spade a spade?  Might offend some people, huh?

Playing the devil's advocate here...  If Iranians are responsible, it's not
Arab terrorism.  If Christian Arabs are involved, it's not Islamic terrorism.