Conference taveng::bagels

I was hoping at least a couple of people would be interested in discussing
this.  Quite awhile ago I had written looking for a place to find information
on Judaism, and was pointed to the Israel Bookshop in Brookline by a couple
of people.  We've made several trips there since.  I just finished reading a 
couple of books that we'd purchased there - "The Jewish Sabbath: A Renewed 
Encounter" by Pinchas H. Peli, and "The Art of Jewish Living: The Shabbat 
Seder" by Dr. Ron Wilson.  

I was really impressed with the depth of the richness and meaning in Shabbat, 
and the room that there is for the individual families' observances and
traditions within the structure of a common framework.  Though my husband and 
I are not Jewish, we've begun to adopt Shabbat observence in our home.  I
think its been around eight weeks or so now.  I think our traditions will 
evolve a bit before they are settled, we are adding things bit by bit.  That's
why I'd like to hear about what is special and important to other people.

Though Thursdays evenings and Friday mornings have become a bit hectic now,
since I work fulltime and we have to do all the preparation around working
hours, for me, the Friday night seder is a highlight, and I really look 
forward to lighting the candles and having that sense peace and tranquility, 
and a special time of closeness to each other and to Hashem sort of descend
into the house and over me.  This week we'll be doing the havdala for the 
first time.

Leslie

    It's wonderful that you are enjoying a taste of Shabbat, Leslie.
    
    What adds a lot to the meals is the singing of Zmirot, Sabbath songs,
    many of which are psalms.  If you can read music, I'd recommend that
    you get a songbook to learn the melodies.  Or, there are probably audio
    tapes.  Good source for both is Brookline's Israel bookstore.
    
    In particular, learn how to sing the "bensh" or blessings after the
    meal.  The song is very beautiful.  Also, learn how to chant the
    blessings over the candles, kiddush, and hamotzi.
    
    Laura

reply to <<< Note 1399.2 by CUPMK::STEINHART >>>

>    It's wonderful that you are enjoying a taste of Shabbat, Leslie.
>    
>    What adds a lot to the meals is the singing of Zmirot, Sabbath songs,
>    many of which are psalms.  If you can read music, I'd recommend that
>    you get a songbook to learn the melodies.  Or, there are probably audio
>    tapes.  Good source for both is Brookline's Israel bookstore.
>    
>    In particular, learn how to sing the "bensh" or blessings after the
>    meal.  The song is very beautiful.  Also, learn how to chant the
>    blessings over the candles, kiddush, and hamotzi.
    


	I hate to sound like a "wet blanket", but...

	.1 isn't Jewish, by their own admission. They have no requirement
	to observe Shabbas whatever.

	Encouragement of non-Jews to lean to "bench", make kiddush, etc.
	is fraught with halachic problems.


don feinberg	

	>
    	I hate to sound like a "wet blanket", but...

	.1 isn't Jewish, by their own admission. They have no requirement
	to observe Shabbas whatever.

	Encouragement of non-Jews to lean to "bench", make kiddush, etc.
	is fraught with halachic problems.
    	>
    
    Guess what Don, you were a wet blanket...
    
    Yes, I'm aware of the halachic problems of non-Jews observing Shabbat,
    etc., but frankly out here I couldn't give a squat.  Why?  Because we
    need all the warm bodies we can get with the Jewish population
    dwindling and assimilating.  And if a non-Jew is considering conversion, 
    then warming up to it vs. plunging in is preferable in my opinion.
    
    Who sets and defines Halacha these days anyways?  Those "merry fellows"
    in the Agudat Israel?  I haven't seen any national consensus across
    Clal Israel on these issues.  Their unilateral actions is as bad as the
    Reform movement's actions in this respect.
    
    /d.c.

    Oh dear, so I violated Halacha by encouraging a non-Jew to perform a
    mitzvah of worship in her own home.  20 lashes with a wet spaghetti...
    
    L

I'm not going to get involved in this discussion, but I was wondering what
in Leslie's notes led David to believe that she's considering conversion.

    Sorry to anyone I offended with my earlier sarcasm.
    
    If I did something wrong, I'd just appreciate some enlightenment on
    what it might be.  E-mail okay if you prefer.
    
    I strongly agree with D. Cherson's comments.
    
    I just got the feeling I was walking on eggshells.  Don't have much
    tolerance for that, but that's another and very personal story.
    
    Laura

    	We are going down a deep rathole here, but it's worth asking:  Just
    what *are* the halachik concerns about non-Jews exploring certain
    practices of Judaism, whatever their motivation?  Maybe I'm just being
    dense here...

    	I do think that the sentiments in .0 and .1 show a grasp of what
    Shabbat is all about.  We can't claim to be Shomer Shabbat at home, but
    we do try to do what we can to "observe" and "protect" it as a day that
    is different, a day to stop working, to add rituals reminding ourselves
    of our identity, to participate in services, and to keep from the total
    homogenization and commercial orientation of American life.  (Yes, Don,
    I can hear you telling me to put my money where my mouth is and make
    aliyah. I don't think you'd entirely approve of my attitude if I did. :-)

    	One additional suggestion about Shabbat is to share it.  Invite
    somebody to your home for dinner.  Make havdalah a party.  Even if you
    flip light switches and run the dishwasher, leave the computer off and
    talk and sing with friends instead.  What other religion has a major
    holiday once a week?  Take advantage of it.

    	The other day I saw an ad on TV for Spags, a mega-discount store
    near Worcester, MA.  It was apologetically stating that they were now
    open Sundays, and they realized that they'd rather reserve Sundays for
    family, so why not bring your whole familiy to Spags?  They were one of
    the last holdouts against Sunday opening, but they had to give in to
    survive.  It made me appreciate that being a Jew gives me built-in blue
    laws that, even if I don't follow all of them to the letter, keep me
    aware on a weekly basis that there's something else in life.

    			David

>I'm not going to get involved in this discussion, but I was wondering what
>in Leslie's notes led David to believe that she's considering conversion.
    
    I didn't mention conversion, but rather an observation that this may be
    *one* appropriate 'warm-up' to conversion if she considers it as an
    option.  Conversion is a very serious issue and should be approached
    with as much education as possible.
    
    And since Greg left DEC, I have to seize every opportunity to 'comment'
    on the Agudat Israel...
    
    /d.c.

    I agree with Laura and other previous notes.  From my understanding one
    who is converting in a halachic manner must be fully observant, but if
    the note stating that a non-jew cannot do this then how does one
    resolve this paradox?  Secondly, I only know of one convert who went
    directly from being active in the faith to which they were born to
    being halachically observant; all of the others that I know who
    converted halachically started in the reform movement and moved slowly
    to observance.  We should not keep discouraging outsiders who are
    interested in us from joining us.
    
    In my home we are not halachic, but we do no work and try to plan
    activities for just the two of us.  We also spend Shabbat with
    observant friends in a halachic manner, which is very peaceful.
    
    Mark

                                                  From my understanding one
    who is converting in a halachic manner must be fully observant, but if
    the note stating that a non-jew cannot do this then how does one
    resolve this paradox?

I think you're asking how someone who's preparing for halachic conversion
"practices" Shabbat without violating the prohibition against non-Jews
observing Shabbat.  I believe the answer is that he does some small deliberate
violation of Shabbat.

A word about the  traditional  Jewish  attitude  to  conversions,
since the issue has come up in a few notes lately. A glaring con-
tradiction is apparent in the approach: on the one hand,  we  ac-
cept  converts  with  open  arms  and no prejudice whatsoever (in
fact, they are considered "returning souls," whose ancestors  may
have strayed from the faith, etc.). On the other hand, there is a
requirement to seriously discourage the potential proselyte  from
actualizing his/her desire. Why?

Jewish life is rich  and  fulfilling  and  fun  and  intense  and
uplifting.  It gives meaning to life, ennobling its adherents and
it provides infinite challenges.

All the enemies in the world will never take these away from  Ju-
daism  and  the  Jewish  people, and the Jewish people have tena-
ciously clung to their beloved faith in  the  face  of  countless
enemies  who  desire to separate them from their Father in heaven
either through forced  conversions,  heavily-financed  conversion
attempts, or just plain murder.

Like it or not, we _are_ the chosen people, chosen to bring holi-
ness  and G-dliness to mankind. And whether or not we like it (or
even live up to it), non-Jews have traditionally *not* liked this
"arrogant"  epithet,  and have tried their hardest to demonstrate
that it has some- how been abrogated if it ever was true, by  op-
pressing us; why would G-d allow His Chosen people to suffer so?

In addition to the external  pressures,  there  is  the  internal
"yoke  of  the precepts," the many hundreds of laws which control
every aspect of our lives, from food to  agriculture  to  marital
relations  to  everyday  conversation  (lashon  hara) to the very
clothing we wear (e.g. shaatnez).  We work our  entire  lives  to
attempt  to tame our animal instincts and to channel our energies
to serve G-d. This is hard, but is the essence of Jewishness.

Towards those who would give up so much and  consider  joining  a
traditionally  down-trodden  and  oppressed people, towards those
who may have seen a few interesting and  moving  observances  and
would consider conversion, we have an overwhelming responsibility
to ensure that _all_ aspects of such a move are  considered  with
the  utmost  gravity. Such a move must never ever allowed to take
place without all the cards being on the table,  without  a  full
understanding of the sometimes overwhelming experiences which lie
in store for the convert, along with all Jews. G-d forbid to con-
sider   glossing  over  these facts just because "our numbers are
dwindling" through intermarriage and assimilation!  What  a  mon-
strous  injustice  against  both  the unwitting proselyte and the
Jewish people! What happens when s/he realizes what s/he's gotten
him/herself  into?  How  long  will  it  last?  How much pain and
suffering will it cause on both sides when s/he turns around  and
runs  for  his/her  life the first time s/he's called a "kike" or
the first time s/he encounters an observance that  appears  "bur-
densome."  And  for  what?  To  fill the seats of our Temples and
synagogues? Why not start with our own children,  why  not  start
with  ourselves,  why  not start to learn about our own heritage,
about the depth and the profound mysteries  it  contains?  If  we
won't even sacrifice money for an intensive, full-day Jewish edu-
cation for our children, if we won't accept upon ourselves to ob-
serve  the  mitzvot  more  fully and to plumb the depths of their
secrets day and night, why then are we surprised that those seats
are empty. And if we fill them up with well-intentioned but naive
new-comers who have been duped into joining a people and religion
about  which  they  know nothing, how long will that last? David,
it's a quick and dirty patch. What's needed is a new release,  or
better  yet  a  return to original version that worked, before it
was butchered by some amateur system designer.

That said, it remains only to be reiterated that  sincere  truth-
seekers are always welcome to join G-d's people. As Ruth said:

        ...for where you go, I will go, and where  you  lodge,  I
        will lodge;  your people will be my people, and your G-d
        my G-d...

Yehoshua

    >
    G-d forbid to consider glossing  over  these facts just because            
    "our numbers are dwindling" through intermarriage and assimilation!  
    What  a  monstrous  injustice  against  both  the unwitting proselyte 
    and the Jewish people! What happens when s/he realizes what s/he's 
    gotten him/herself  into?  How  long  will  it  last?  How much pain 
    and suffering will it cause on both sides when s/he turns around  
    and runs for his/her life the first time s/he's called a "kike" or
    the first time s/he encounters an observance that  appears  "bur-
    densome."  And  for  what?  To  fill the seats of our Temples and
    synagogues? Why not start with our own children, why not start
    with ourselves, why not start to learn about our own heritage,
    about the depth and the profound mysteries it contains?
    >
    
    No one suggesting a "glossing over" of the reality, quite the contrary,
    converts have to know about all the responsibilities and realities of
    being a Jew before they make the decision.  I think you're getting
    carried away with polemics here.  And I do work to educate my children,
    that's why a good portion of my income goes to full time Jewish day
    school education, and elsewhere.  So don't preach to the choir at me
    (sorry, no pun intended).
    
    But in regards to assimilation, etc., if you base it all on the basis
    of religion, i.e., Judaism vis-a-vis Christianity, etc., you will lose. 
    Part of the problem of the dwindling numbers of Jews here is that it is
    all viewed as if it's just a case of switching 'churches', neglecting
    the fact that there are more components to Jewish reality than Judaism
    alone.
    
    /d.c.

Re: .13

>    But in regards to assimilation, etc., if you base it all on the basis
>    of religion, i.e., Judaism vis-a-vis Christianity, etc., you will lose. 

I don't really understand this sentence. Can you elucidate?

>    Part of the problem of the dwindling numbers of Jews here is that it is
>    all viewed as if it's just a case of switching 'churches', neglecting
>    the fact that there are more components to Jewish reality than Judaism
>    alone.

Which component are you referring to?

>  And I do work to educate my children,
>    that's why a good portion of my income goes to full time Jewish day
>    school education, and elsewhere.  So don't preach to the choir at me

I wasn't "preaching" to anyone. I am saying that we *all* need to re-examine
our priorities in the face of the realities of our utter failure with the
younger generation. We all have what to examine and improve.

Yehoshua

>>    But in regards to assimilation, etc., if you base it all on the basis
>>    of religion, i.e., Judaism vis-a-vis Christianity, etc., you will lose. 

>I don't really understand this sentence. Can you elucidate?
    
    Most people's perception in the Diaspora is that all it's about is
    religion, so I can just as easily change my religion to another, what's
    the problem?, etc.  Of course more often than not the religion that
    they change over to is the "american religion", i.e., nothing.
    The other components that I was referring were the national, folk,
    linguistic, cultural components.  Everything that defines us a people.
    
    /d.c. 

    >>But in regards to assimilation, etc., if you base it all on the basis
    >>of religion, i.e., Judaism vis-a-vis Christianity, etc., you will lose.
    
    Tain't necessarily so.  I used to be friendly with a man who converted
    with his wife to Judaism.  They have since informally dropped their
    Judaism (though he still told me he is a Jew when we had a close
    conversation).  They are now active in Ba'Hai.  There don't seem to be
    any Jewish elements in their lives now.
    
    I'm just saying they were attracted enough to convert, but it didn't
    "stick."  As to whether they were informed of the greater ramifications
    of conversion when they chose, I have no idea.  I think they are
    peripatetic spiritual seekers.  
    
    Laura

Getting back to .0....

When I was living alone, I did two things to "mark" Shabbat for myself.  I lived
quite a long way away from my synagogue, thought it is quite close to work, so
I would not go home on Friday evenings, but go directly to shul and read for
a while in the library and attend services.  That was #1.  On Saturday morning,
I made the beginning of the day absolutely mine.  I decided that the hours 
before 10 would be for reading and studying - not necessarily anything heavy
or religious, but for learning.  It became such a wonderful time for me that
I found myself getting up earlier and earlier so I could have more of it!

Now two things have dramatically changed my habits.  I have a little girl, and 
I moved very close to my synagogue.  Obviously, the quiet hours of Saturday
morning are no longer quiet!  I do, however, have the convenience and time to
go home and "make Shabbat" with my little one.  We try and have a nice dinner
and we light candles, say the blessings over the wine and bread, and I say
the priestly blessings over her.  We play Shabbat music on the stereo while we
eat and we have plenty of time to wrap up dinner and get to Fri nite services,
depending on the tired factor of my daughter.  Minimally we get to services the
one time a month when they start earlier for families with young children and
try and go to community Mincha/Havdallah when we can, which is also early.

We are not Shomer Shabbat.  We do not keep kosher.  But my 2 year old daughter
knows that "Shabbat Shalom" is different than the rest of the week.  By 
definition at this point in our lives, we are together all weekend, so the
family aspect isn't necessary to emphasize yet, but as she grows older, I hope
we will be cognizant of this time to set aside for US.  Before we moved, when
going all the way back to shul after dinner was logistically impractical, we
used to have a special video time on Friday evenings when we would watch a movie
and snuggle in "Mama's big bed" together to mark the time as different.  I don't
think it really matters what you do, as long as it is a time set aside to be a 
family and to teach kids that it is special, gradually adding traditional
rituals of choice and study along the way.

That's my  take -

Waky

I want to thank everyone who has written here.  This has been a very
interesting and thought provoking discussion for me.  Many thanks 
especially to those who have shared about aspects of Shabbat that are 
particularly special to them.

Since the issue of whether or not its okay to encourage a non-Jew in
observing Shabbat arose, I'd also like to see (although it also makes me
a little nervous to ask) the answer to David Ofsevit's question:

Note 1399.8:

>>    	We are going down a deep rathole here, but it's worth asking:  Just
>>    what *are* the halachik concerns about non-Jews exploring certain
>>    practices of Judaism, whatever their motivation?  Maybe I'm just being
>>    dense here...

Prior to hearing these, perhaps I ought to give the reasons that my husband 
and I began to observe Shabbat.  Before I try and explain them, I'd like to 
pull in some excerpts from Yehoshua's note because they are part of the reason
we are doing this.

Note 1399.12:

>>   Jewish life is rich  and  fulfilling  and  fun  and  intense  and
>>   uplifting.  It gives meaning to life, ennobling its adherents and
>>   it provides infinite challenges.

>>Like it or not, we _are_ the chosen people, chosen to bring holi-
>>ness  and G-dliness to mankind. 

I believe that G_d is the creator and sustainer of the universe.  That He
cares about all of His creation, including all peoples, not just the Jews.
I also believe that the statement above is very true - G_d did choose the
Jews, and He chose them to bring holiness and G-dliness to all humanity.
          =============================================================

One way that this is done is by Jews living the Torah - G_d's teachings 
revealed to humanity through the Jewish people.  Shabbat is part of this.  
It is part of the "Mosaic" covenant G_d made with Israel.  In fact, it is 
one sign of the covenant (Exodus 31:16-17)  It is a remembrance of how G_d 
brought Israel out from Egypt to form them into a nation and people for 
Himself.

But I don't think it is enough that Shabbat is observed privately among the 
Jewish people, it must be lived publicly in front of others and shared with 
others, else how do you bring holiness and G_dliness to mankind?  To bolster 
this idea, I would point out that Shabbat was made holy by G_d at the time of 
creation, long before Noah, long before Abraham, long before Moses.

    "And G_d blessed the seventh day and declared it holy, because on it
     G_d ceased from all the work of creation that He had done."  
     Genesis 2:3 (New JPS Translation)

So, in a way, Shabbat should be holy for all peoples even though the specific
mitzvah was given to the Jewish people.  Not only was Shabbat hallowed at 
creation, but there is some indication that in the future Shabbat will be a
universal day of worship:

    "[The time] has come to gather all the nations and tongues; they shall
     come and behold my glory...For as the new heaven and the new earth
     which I will make shall endure by My will -- declares the Lord --
     So shall your seed and your name endure.  And new moon after new moon,
     and Sabbath after Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship Me."

     Isaiah 66:18, 22-23 (New JPS Translation)

The Jewish ways of keeping Shabbat are rich and deep with all the nuances
of creation, redemption, our utter dependence on Hashem to provide for us, 
His holiness, our need to rest from all that we do and to give ourselves 
the space in time necessary to fully and completely worship G_d without
the day to day distractions we normally have.  These are exactly the reasons
for the lighting of the candles, kiddush, hamotzi, and rest.  We seek to 
draw closer to Hashem.  Remembering and keeping Shabbat is a rich, fulfilling,
fun (joy), intense, and uplifting way of doing that.  Drawing closer to Hashem
gives meaning to life, and enables us to meet its infinite challenges.

Finally, I might add that I do not think the prayers are a magical formula
or incantation, but it is through words that we come to some understanding of
who we are and what our relationship is to the Lord our G_d, Ruler of the 
universe.  And through words we have some communication with Him.  Therefore,
if we speak them in the language we know - English, and even if we do not know
how to sing or chant them, we are still worshiping and communicating with 
G_d who hears us and cares about us.  This is not to say we take communication
with G_d, and worship of G_d lightly, but that we come before Him humbly seeking
His mercy, which He Himself has promised.

Respectfully,

Leslie

Just this morning while reading Isaiah I came across the following in 
chapter 56.  This Scripture also seems to indiate that it is okay, even
desirable, for the non-Jew - the foreigner, to observe Shabbat.  Comments ?

__Leslie

  Isaiah 56 (New JPS translation)

  1. Thus said the Lord:
     Observe what is right and do what is just;
     For soon my salvation shall come,
     And my deliverance shall be revealed.

  2. Happy is the man who does this,
     The man who holds fast to it;
     Who keeps the Sabbath and does not profane it,
     And stays his hand from doing any evil.

  3. Let not the foreigner say,
     Who has attached himself to the Lord,
     "The Lord will keep me apart from His people";
     And let not the eunuch say, "I am a withered tree".

  4. For thus said the Lord:
     As for the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths,
     Who have chosen what I desire
     And hold fast to my covenant --

  5. I will give them, in My House
     And within My walls,
     An everalsting name
     Which shall not perish.

  6. As for the foreigners
     Who attach themselves to the Lord,
     To minister to Him,
     And to love the name of the Lord,
     To be His servants --
     All who keep the Sabbath and do not profane it,
     And who hold fast to My covenant --

  7. I will bring them to My sacred mount
     And let them rejoice in My house of prayer.
     Their burnt offerings and sacrifices
     Shall be welcome on My altar;
     For My House shall be called
     A house of Prayer for all peoples.

Leslie

The word "foreigner" is probably the translation of the Hebrew "ger"
which usually means "convert". Isaiah is saying "accept the convert".

Dave

I don't know what the original Hebrew was, but I'll see about looking it up.
By the way, JPS translation means this is from the Tanakh published by the 
Jewish Publication Society.

So then, what you are saying is the "all peoples" in verse 7 does not really 
mean all peoples who serve the Lord, but only every person who converts to 
Judaism ?

Leslie

The word "peoples" is usually the translation for the Hebrew word "goyim",
which (strangely enough :-) really means "peoples" or "nations".

My reading of verse 3 is that converts should feel they are truely a
part of Israel nor should persons with physical defects feel excluded.
Leviticus excludes persons with defects from performing priestly duties
in the Temple; Isaiah appears to be limiting the exclusion.

Verses 6 and 7 seem to refer to converts. However, the final line of
verse 7 ("A house of Prayer for all peoples") is wide open to the
interpretation you have given. Interesting.

Dave

    I checked out the Hebrew in Is. 56:1-8, and in verses 3 and 6, the word
    that may be translated "stranger" or "alien" or "foreigner" etc., is
    not "ger" but from the root "nekar" (nun, kaph, resh).  And the word
    for "peoples" in the phrase '...a house of prayer for all peoples' is
    not from "goy" but from "am".
    
    Interestingly enough, in Ruth 2:10, when she asks why she, a foreigner,
    is looked upon with such favor, the word there is also from "nekar",
    not from "ger" (in fact, "ger" doesn't even appear in the book of
    Ruth).
    
    As far as I can tell, I don't think the Biblical word "ger" could have
    meant "formal convert" anyway, as that word predates the notion of
    formal conversion by centuries (if not millenia).  But even if it did,
    it's not the word used in this passage.
    
    While I would agree with the teaching in .22 that converts should
    feel totally part of the nation of Israel (as they clearly are), I'm
    left wondering what halakhic complications exist for Gentiles (who
    have not converted to Judaism) who observe the Shabbat.  Could someone
    elucidate please?
    
    Steve
                                         

Re: .23

>    I'm
>    left wondering what halakhic complications exist for Gentiles (who
>    have not converted to Judaism) who observe the Shabbat.  Could someone
>    elucidate please?

It's not that complicated. Someone who wishes to become a proselyte may
do so and is then obliged to observe all the Torah's laws. But one who
has not (yet) converted is strongly discouraged from such observance. 
Basically, Judaism is a package deal, and encouraging even sincere people
to pick and choose between those precepts which appeal to them does no one
much good. As far as one who is committed to conversion and wishes to
"practice" Sabbath observance, the general procedure is to require him
to transgress one or another Sabbath restriction so as not to be completely
observing the Sabbath.

Yehoshua

Re: .19

>Just this morning while reading Isaiah I came across the following in 
>chapter 56.  This Scripture also seems to indiate that it is okay, even
>desirable, for the non-Jew - the foreigner, to observe Shabbat.  Comments ?

>  3. Let not the foreigner say,
>     Who has attached himself to the Lord,
>     "The Lord will keep me apart from His people";
>     And let not the eunuch say, "I am a withered tree".

Certainly a reasonable question. But the commentators (e.g. Ibn Ezra)
say explicitly that the subject here refers to full-fledged proselytes.

Yehoshua

    Yehoshua,
    
    I still don't understand.
    
    The text of the Isaiah passage is clear whether in English or Hebrew. 
    Perhaps if the word were from "ger" as opposed to "nekar", there
    *might* be a plausible argument (though I maintain that attributing
    Rabbinical Conversion to the Biblical use of "ger" is anachronistic).
    
    Isaiah's prophecy clearly indicates an open, blessed invitation to "the
    stranger" to delight in the Shabbat; an invitation from G-d Himself! 
    
    On whose authority does G-d's invitation get revoked?
    
    Steve

    I note that the verse also says "Who has attached 
    himself to the Lord," and this could mean conversion
    to Judaism rather than just monotheism of one flavor
    or another.
    
    You might want to look up the verb as well.
    
    		-John Bishop

    Good question, John.  I'll look it up and post what I find here.
    
    Steve

    Hello,
    
    I just took a look at topic 416 to see if Shabbath Observance is
    part of the Noachic laws - which is isn't. 
    
    There is also an interesting discussion that follows that is related
    to this discussion.
    
    Malcolm
    

re: the verb "join"  (please bear with a lenghty response...)

It's from the root "lavah", which (according to Kittel's) can mean either 
to simply join or be joined, or, interestingly, to borrow or to lend (what 
might it mean to "lend" oneself to the L-rd?).

So in Is. 56:3 you've got:

	Let no *foreigner* (ben-hanekar) who has *bound himself to the
	L-rd* (hanlevah el-Adonai) say...

Those are the same roots used in vs. 6.  I don't have any information 
beyond this, so I don't know what implications the verb has to the 
discussion.  I suppose one could argue that joining oneself to the L-rd 
implies conversion to Judaism, but there are a few problems with this.

	1) conversion as it's spoken of today is of course different
	   than what Ruth and other goyim did in joining themselves
	   to Israel and Israel's G-d

	2) the prophet could have said "Let no foreigner who has bound 
	   himself to Israel..."  There are some examples of that in the
	   Tanakh (see below), but even then, the purpose seems to transcend 
	   the physical.  

	3) the prophet refers to gathering *others* (besides those exiles 
	   already re-gathered) to Israel in verse 8 of that chapter  

I just don't see Is. 56 discussing conversion or the observance of Shabbat 
among converts.

For reference: "lavah" used in the sense of borrowing/lending can be 
seen in Deut 28:44, Ps 37:21, and Is 24:2 (among others).  I won't quote 
them here.

I do want to quote a few of the uses of "lavah" in the sense of joining, 
because it seems there is a theme (all quotes from NIV and any emphasis is 
mine):

ESTHER 9:27 - the Jews took it upon themselves to establish the custom that 
they and their descendants *and all who join them* should without fail 
observe these two days every year, in the way prescribed and at the time 
appointed.

ISAIAH 14:1 - The L-rd will have compassion on Jacob; once again He will 
choose Israel and will settle them in their own land.  Aliens (i.e., 
foreigners) will *join* them and *unite* with the house of Jacob.

ZECHARIAH 2:10,11 - "Shout and be glad, O Daugher of Zion.  For I am 
coming, and I will live among you," declares the L-rd.  "Many nations" 
(goyim) "will be *joined with the L-rd* in that day and will become my 
people.  I will live among you and you will know that the L-rd Almighty has 
sent me to you...."

The Zechariah quote of joining oneself to the L-rd seems to sum up (for me) 
the purpose of the Esther and Isaiah quotes; that is - one's attraction to 
Israel is not only seen as being toward the people themselves, but also 
(and I would suggest supremely) toward the *G-d* of the people (who are 
faithful to one another).  One joins oneself to the L-rd because He sees G-d, 
who is with those who trust Him.  Consider further in Zechariah chapter 8 
verses 20-23:

	This is what the L-rd Almighty says: "Many peoples and the
	inhabitants of many cities will yet come, and the inhabitants
	of one city will go to another and say, 'Let us go at once and
	entreat the L-rd and seek the L-rd Almighty.  I myself am going.'
	And many peoples and powerful nations will come to Jerusalem 
	*** to seek the L-rd Almighty and to entreat him." ***
	This is what the L-rd Almighty says: "In those days ten men from
	all languages and nations" (goyim) "will take firm hold of one Jew 
	by the hem of his robe and say, 'Let us go with you, *because* we 
	have heard that G-d is with you.'"

Who could deny, in the face of the history of the Jewish people, that G-d 
is with the Jewish people?  

As for the Zechariah passage, I would like to point out that I find it 
extremely significant that the Hebrew word for "the hem of his robe"
(kanaph), is the same Hebrew word used in Numbers 15:38,39 where the
instructions for Tzitzit are found.  The purpose of the Tzitzit is clear;
to be a reminder of all the mitvot of Torah - the mitzvot which distinguish 
the Jewish people from all other peoples.  I find a strong connection 
(though others may find it insignificant) with the nations (goyim) being 
excited about G-d by seeing, understanding, and perhaps even participating 
in the holy mitzvot; toward the purpose of joining oneself to the L-rd (and 
thus His invitation to the Sabbath); as well as seeing through history that 
G-d is certainly with His segulot. 

Steve