Conference taveng::bagels

As I remember it (please correct if I'm in error):
    
>	Sometimes pregnant cows are slaughtered. Is the fetus kosher. May 
>it be eaten?

If the calf began to be born, even if it stuck a limb out and then
retracted it, it must be ritually slaughtered.  Obviously if it dies
before this can be done, it's not kosher.  If the calf didn't begin
to be born, it's kosher and it doesn't need separate slaughter.

In the egg situation, I don't think there's a question of whether or
not it's kosher.  I think there's a question of whether it's fleishig
or pareve.

    I understood that the egg was counted as part of the 
    chicken, and therefore fleishig.
    
    Malcolm
    

>
>If the calf began to be born, even if it stuck a limb out and then
>retracted it, it must be ritually slaughtered.  Obviously if it dies
>before this can be done, it's not kosher.  If the calf didn't begin
>to be born, it's kosher and it doesn't need separate slaughter.
>

Not only does the calf not require "shecita", but if it is a female any of HER
offsprings would NOT require "shechita".


>In the egg situation, I don't think there's a question of whether or
>not it's kosher.  

As long as the hen itself was "shechted" properly and the hen is NOT a "trefa".

>I think there's a question of whether it's fleishig
>or pareve.
>

As long as the egg is still deriving noursishment from the hen through any veins
etc., then it would be considered fleishig. If the egg has completely formed
and no longer derives any nourishment from the hen, then it is considered
pareve.

Thanks,

Cb.

    The bigger question is "How do you cook a chicken it it's mother's
    milk?".
    
    				Paul

    I heard recently that chickens are considered fleishig so
    that on Shabbath, they can be eaten as a 'meat' meal. 
    This is a great help to those who want to eat meat on Shabbath
    but can't afford other forms. 
    
    The more common explanation I have heard is that chicken 
    could easily be confused with 'real' meat, so it was decreed
    as 'fleishig'. 
    
    Any other explanations/clarifications welcomed.
    
    Malcolm
    

>
>    I heard recently that chickens are considered fleishig so
>    that on Shabbath, they can be eaten as a 'meat' meal. 
>    This is a great help to those who want to eat meat on Shabbath
>    but can't afford other forms. 
>    

Malcom,

I believe that it is the other way around; because chicken is considered to be
meat, therefor... But even so, there are many authorities who maintain that on
Yom Tov where there is a real commandment of "Simcha" (on Shabbat there is NOT
a commandment of "Simcha" but rather "Oneg" which means having pleasure) then
one shouls attempt to eat "real" meat.

>    The more common explanation I have heard is that chicken 
>    could easily be confused with 'real' meat, so it was decreed
>    as 'fleishig'. 
>    

Whether or not something is "meat" has ramifications in several areas. The most
distinguished area being whether or not chicken can be cooked/eaten together
with milk. The Tanaim argue this point; the majority opinion is that chicken
was EXCLUDED from this prohibition, however the Rabbinic law is to prohibit
chicken just like real meat lest someone be confused etc (BTW, the Bet Yosef in
one opinion applies this reasoning to fish as well).

But, there are other areas such as the laws pertaining to vows; if someone made
a vow NOT to eat meat, may he eat chicken? Or the laws pertaining to a Priest
who is considered an "Onen" (a peculiar status applied to a Priest directly
following the death of one of the seven relatives for which he would be obliged
to mourn and actually defile himself - this status was then later extended to
all mourners) where the Torah prohibits him from eating meat. I believe that in
both cases, the ruling is to prohibit chicken as well, but I don't recall
what the reasoning is. 

Thanks,

Cb.

Re: .6

>I believe that it is the other way around; because chicken is considered to be
>meat, therefor... But even so, there are many authorities who maintain that on
>Yom Tov where there is a real commandment of "Simcha" (on Shabbat there is NOT
>a commandment of "Simcha" but rather "Oneg" which means having pleasure) then
>one shouls attempt to eat "real" meat.

Although the requirement to eat on Yom Tov is derived from a different
verse from that of Shabbat, the Rambam equates the two in terms of the
*type* of "honor" and "pleasure" (in Hil. Yom Tov). I have
seen those who are stringent on Yom Tov to eat some red meat, but I
assume that this "chumra" derives from the Talmud's dictum (in Pesachim)
that "true pleasure is derived [only] from the meat of the Peace
offering [ein simcha elah be'besar shelamim], which of course consisted
of red meat. If you have a source, I'd be interested in seeing it.

>Whether or not something is "meat" has ramifications in several areas. The most
>distinguished area being whether or not chicken can be cooked/eaten together
>with milk. The Tanaim argue this point; the majority opinion is that chicken
>was EXCLUDED from this prohibition, however the Rabbinic law is to prohibit
>chicken just like real meat lest someone be confused etc (BTW, the Bet Yosef in
>one opinion applies this reasoning to fish as well).

The Bach and the Maharshal indeed hold the prohibition to be biblical in
nature, although the vast majority of commentators disagree.

>But, there are other areas such as the laws pertaining to vows; if someone made
>a vow NOT to eat meat, may he eat chicken?

Again, the Rambam (Hil. Nedarim) says clearly that chicken is
included in such a vow, although many argue that this clearly
contradicts the Talmud which equates chicken to fish.

>Or the laws pertaining to a Priest
>who is considered an "Onen" (a peculiar status applied to a Priest directly
>following the death of one of the seven relatives for which he would be obliged
>to mourn and actually defile himself - this status was then later extended to
>all mourners) where the Torah prohibits him from eating meat. I believe that in
>both cases, the ruling is to prohibit chicken as well, but I don't recall
>what the reasoning is.

I don't recall seeing this particular question, but the commentators
discuss the permissibility of "meat soup" or stew from which the
meat has been removed, as well as whiskey or beer (only wine is
explicitly prohibited). Perhaps those who permit the latter may
permit leniency about chicken as well, but the Rambam would probably
prohibit it based on what he says in the sources mentioned.

Yehoshua

Many Sefardim don't eat fish with dairy products.  I think this is along the
lines of not eating fish with meat -- Chazal say that there's a sakana (danger)
and although we don't understand it, people widely avoid it.  I believe that
like fish with meat, Sefardim eat fish and dairy at the same meal, just not
together. 

    And many Ashkenaz put the fish on a separate plate.
    
    				Paul