Conference taveng::bagels

	>Specifically, he'd like to know how many, if any, have been        
        >settled on the West bank or Gaza Strip.
    
    Not trying to be overly suspicious, but why is your friend interested in
    if and how many Russian immigrants have settled in the territories? 
    Would this be in support of some propaganda?
    
    You'll find that most Russians live in or within close vicinity to the
    large cities.
    
    /d.c.

    
    >You'll find that most Russians live in or within close vicinity to the
    >large cities.
    
    And of course the people in question are not Russians...

Re: .2

>    >You'll find that most Russians live in or within close vicinity to the
>    >large cities.
>    
>    And of course the people in question are not Russians...

     Alex, you are wrong. They are Russians.

     I was born in Argentina. My father was born in Argentina. I was, and
     still am, an Argentinian citizen, "y a mucha honra" (and very proud
     of it).

     For 36 years, while in Argentina, I was called "the Jew", among other
     epitets.

     Now, for 12 years, I am living here in Israel, and am, as well, a very
     proud Israeli citizen.

     Let me tell you it only took me to land here, to be known and called by
     all "the Argentinian" - among other epitets.

     (However, those epitets here sound much less offensive)

     Regards,

     Juan-Carlos Kiel

    Juan-Carlos:
    
    I know what you're trying to tell me. But what people call them has
    little to do what they are. Call them rusim all you want, the closest
    they'l get to that is being yehudim mirusia. The issue is not that
    the term is offensive (it is probably not), it's just a matter of
    precision since this conference does not have the context where
    "Russian" means "Jew from Russia". Furthermore, how does anybody
    know that they are from Russia? Could they be from Ukraine? Belarus?
    Georgia? Turkmenistan?
    
    I wish all our problems were that tough! :-)
    
    Regards,
    Alex

RE: .4

>    I know what you're trying to tell me. 

No Alex, you don't.

What people call them has little to do what they are. But there are Jews 
living in Russia before Catherine the Great got there. I don't think you'll
question the "Rusian-ness" of Catherine's descendents. Do you?

The Jews arrived in Russia when the Russ were consolidating it. And became
a part of the country. Many among them make important contributions
and made contributions to the culture of Russia, and many of them carry
the banner of the Russian culture outside of Russia.

Many of them - perhaps as I am and I was - got caught in the question: Whom do
you love more, your Mommy or your Daddy? Russia or Israel?

What I am trying to tell you is that even if they choose one of the parents,
one of the countries, that does not necessarily hinder their love, their
respect and their identification with the other.

I may agree with you that this note does not relate to the base note. But
let me say that your comment about the "Russian-ness" of the Russian Jews
does not either.

Regards,

Juan-Carlos

    I do not understand on what grounds are you making such sweeping
    generalizations regarding the xSoviet Jews and Jews of Russian origin.
    
    Of course there are quite a few who are identifying themselves
    culturally with the Russian culture and even those who have become
    Russian Orthodox Christians. There are also those who have indeed
    contributed to the advancement of the Russian culture. If these people
    choose to identify themselves as Russians then not only would I agree
    with them, but I would also support them in asserting their identity
    against those who, for whatever reasons, would attempt to deny them their
    membership in the Russian nation.
    
    But there are Russian Jews whose only Russian-ness consists of their
    Russo-lingual education. Among these there are quite a few who would
    openly resent being labelled Russian. One's language does not determine
    one's identity.
    
    There are also groups among the xSoviet Jews who lived in the Caucasus
    or Central Asia who have even less ties with Russia and the Russian
    culture and some of whom speak Russian only barely or with a heavy
    accent.
    
    There are also xPolish, xBaltic and xRomanian Jews who were "liberated"
    by the Soviets during WWII who not only do not identify themselves with
    Russia, but whose native languages are Yiddish and/or Polish, Romanian,
    etc. (of course their children may have been Russified to some extent).
    
    I have no idea who are these "descendants" of Catherine the Great you
    are talking about, but you are apparently not aware of the fact that
    most Jews in Russian Empire were of Polish origins that found
    themselves under the Russian rule after the partitions of Poland during
    Catherine's reign. And let me tell you, these Jews were not at all
    welcome in Russia proper, but were instead restricted to the
    territories that were formerly Polish.
    
    The descendants of the Jews who lived in Muscovy prior to Catherine's
    reign account for the smallest percentage of the current Russian Jewry.
    
    If the Jews who were "Russian" for some 200 years choose to leave
    Russia for Israel, it is not because they consider themselves Russians.
    Even those who have split loyalties, as you suggest, are not Russians
    by definition! So what in the world are you talking about?
    
    Regards,
    Alex