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Conference taveng::bagels

Title:	BAGELS and other things of Jewish interest
Notice:	1.0 policy, 280.0 directory, 32.0 registration
Moderator:	SMURF::FENSTER

Created:	Mon Feb 03 1986
Last Modified:	Thu Jun 05 1997
Last Successful Update:	Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:	1524
Total number of notes:	18709

1388.0. "Israel Shahak on Settler Violence" by BLUFSH::FALSAFI (Aram Falsafi DECrti Engineering) Mon Feb 28 1994 17:03

Given the events of the last few days (and the deafening silence surrounding
it in this conference), here's a little article written a few months ago by
Israel Shahak.  In hindsight, what he has to say about Hebron sounds almost
prophetic.

-Aram
    
    

Date:         Tue, 11 Jan 1994 21:22:06 GMT
Reply-To:     Yigal Arens <[email protected]>
Sender:       Activists Mailing List <[email protected]>
Comments:     Warning -- original Sender: tag was [email protected]
From:         Yigal Arens <[email protected]>
Organization: ?
Subject:      Shahak Report 130: Settler assaults on Palestinians (12/93)

Report No. 130                   Israel Shahak, 10 December 1993

      Assaults of the religious settlers upon the Palestinians

  Since its its inception in June 1967, the Israeli conquest
regime in the Territories was marked by an enormous amount of
violence against the Palestinians. Almost immediately, that
regime became one of apartheid which in some respects has been
much stricter than South African apartheid at its worst. Until
1974, as long as the Territories were governed by Moshe Dayan as
Defense minister, one feature of modern jurisprudence was
scrupulously observed. The government then kept the monopoly of
violence in its own hands, letting no Jewish individuals assault
the Palestinians with impunity and letting no lawlessness
influence its policies. In this respect, Dayan was faithful to
the doctrine of Ben-Gurion which had rested on these two
principles and their strict enforcement.

  This state of affairs changed only with the rise of Gush Emunim
in 1974-75 which, not by chance, coincided with the first
government of Rabin, in which Shimon Peres served as a Defense
minister, using this post to protect Gush Emunim's settlement and
violence. Since that time private violence has tended to mount
when the Defense ministry, responsible for the Territories, was
in the hands of Labor. Such a violence soared under the "national
unity" government of 1984-90, when Rabin was Defense minister,
plummeted under Arens [1990-1992] and flared up again after Rabin
came to power in July 1992. In both qualitative and quantitative
terms, it has acquired an unprecedented intensity since
mid-September of 1993. Anticipating it almost a year ago,
commentators close to the Israeli army, like Ze'ev Shiff,
expressed fears that the Territories may undergo "a process of
Lebanonization". Indeed, the last term seems now fit as a
description of the existing situation.

  Violent assaults upon the Palestinians in the Territories are
in an overwhelming majority perpetrated by Jewish religious
settlers, and they have two peculiarities. In the first place
those assaults are overtly and avowedly aimed at perfectly
innocent randomly chosen individuals or groups of people. Their
avowed "purpose" is either "to relieve the feelings of distress
of the assaulters", or "to teach the Arabs a lesson", or else to
somehow "influence" the Palestinian population to prevent future
violence. (The first of these rationalization is recognized by
the Israeli government as valid.) Regardless of whether the
assaults cause injury to persons or "only" to property, they
imply the recourse to violence against innocent bystanders for
the sake of a political purpose. As such they can only be
regarded as acts of terror, and the God-fearing assaulters as
terrorists. Accordingly, the organizations responsible for these
assaults are terroristic organizations, even though they are
perfectly legal, and generously assisted financially and
otherwise by the Israeli government. Accordingly, the Israeli
government which not only tolerates the violence in question, but
also, as will be shown below, abets it, can only be defined as a
terror-supporting government. (By the way, when Israel accuses
the governments of Syria or Iran of "supporting terror" it uses
exactly the same argument.) But since the State of Israel could
never abet settler terrorism without tacit approval by the U.S.
(see Report 129), the latter should also be regarded as
supporting the settler terrorism in the Territories, even more so
after the Agreement between Israel and the PLO was signed on the
White House lawns than prior to that event.

  Let me reiterate the (already quoted in Report 124) criteria by
which terror is defined by Benjamin Netanyahu, the Likud leader.
These criteria were quoted by Amnon Abramovitz ("Maariv", August
6, 1993), in the context of his comments on the "Accountability
Operation" of July 1993, which Abramovitz regarded as terroristic
but, as he clarified in another article of his ("Maariv", August
9), nevertheless justifiable, because "a government which
sincerely desires peace is entitled to oppress, to bomb and to
exile people". The proof that the Rabin government "sincerely
desired peace" was seen by Abramovitz in that "it negotiated with
the PLO". Abramovitz borrowed the definition from the book
bearing the title "How the West can win" [Hebrew translation]
which Netanyahu had edited in the late 1970s. In a preface he
himself wrote, Netanyahu defined terror as "violence aimed at
people who have no connection with the aims of the terrorists."
He also claims that "the terrorists consciously and deliberately
choose the civilians as their targets", that they "threaten and
intimidate the civilians in order to thus achieve a political
aim" and that "for a terrorist the civilians are the key
concept". As will be shown below, these definitions fit the
settler terrorism to perfection.

  But before providing examples, an important point needs to be
made about the present character of the Hebrew press. Since about
mid-October, as soon as it became clear that the implementation
of the Agreement between Israel and the PLO encounters serious
obstacles, a part of the Hebrew press decided to help the Israeli
government by increasingly concealing and misrepresenting
anything that might belie optimism about "the new Middle East"
and euphoria, common right after the Agreement had been signed
last September. For the Israeli Jewish public, two main reasons
to get distressed are Palestinian guerilla activities and the
settler terrorism. Reporting the former cannot be suppressed
(although it is no longer done with as much hate propaganda as
before the Agreement.) But insofar as the latter is concerned,
the failures and misrepresentations in its coverage are possible,
and they are much resorted in order to keep optimism of the
public high. Three papers have changed in this respect most
notably: "Haaretz", "Davar" and "Al Hamishmar", i.e. the papers
which most zealously support Rabin's government and its policies.
Concretely, "Haaretz" has provided only few rather tame
descriptions of settler terrorism, with the exception of that
perpetrated by marginal groups like the splinters of Kahanism
("Kach"). And the two other named papers keep their mouth shut
even more tightly. However, "Yediot Ahronot" and the "Ha'olam
Ha'ze" weekly have consistently remained accurate and detailed in
their coverage of settlers' exploits, and to some extent the same
holds true for "Hadashot" and for the Jerusalem Friday paper "Kol
Ha'ir". As for "Maariv", it remains a class in itself. The
description of events it provides reflects the point of view of
religious settlers, and it often publishes articles of their
leaders. But its editorials, authored by a right-winger Yoseph
Lapid, invariably denounce settler violence against the
Palestinians. Moreover, "Maariv" publishes plenty of articles by
Uri Avnery and Hayim Hanegbi which always reflect Yasser Arafat's
positions. This explains the selectivity in the use of the
sources in this report.

  Let me begin the description and analysis of typical incidents
of settler terrorism with an article by "Ha'olam Ha'ze"
correspondent Amit Gurevitz (November 17), which deserves
extensive coverage. Gurevitz happened to do his reserve service
in a paratrooper unit stationed in Hebron shortly before he wrote
his article which draws much from the author's personal
experience, including his conversations with fellow soldiers,
most of whom proudly defined themselves as voters for the right-
wing Likud and Tzomet parties, and who yet professed their
loathing of religious settlers of the Hebron area. Some of them
confided to him that "they terminated their service with hard
feelings, not about the Arabs but about the settlers. The unit's
officers circulated among the soldiers a petition, intended to be
submitted to the Defense Ministry. The petition deplored the
hostile attitude toward them by the very settlers they were
ordered to protect". The article appeared shortly after a Hamas
guerilla assault resulted in killing a religious settler, Ephraim
Ayubi, who worked as the driver of Rabbi Druckman, one of the
most extremist Gush Emunim leaders. This is why Gurevitz is
careful to point out at the beginning of his article that
"according to the unanimous view of the unit's officers, duly
reported to the area's commanders, the murder of Ephraim Ayubi
was a retaliation for the settlers' rampages, in the course of
which the settlers burned 15 Arab-owned cars in a single day.
That arson, not reported in the Israeli media at all", (except
for a very short and hard-to-find note in "Haaretz") "took place
one day before the murder. Right after this arson, the soldiers
were told by their higher-ups to `expect an Arab retaliation'".
Although the most publicized (especially by the U.S. press)
exploits of settler terrorism do follow acts of violence of
Palestinian guerilla units, their retaliatory character is in
doubt. As in Ayubi's case, they may provoke the Palestinian to
retaliate. This is acknowledged by the internal communications of
the Israeli army which often admit that a given action of
Palestinian guerillas was "a retaliation". But in Israeli (let
alone the U.S.) propaganda Palestinian violence is invariably
described as "unprovoked" by anything which the settlers or the
Israeli government may have done.

  Gurevitz quotes "a unit officer: `When we had to intervene in a
skirmish between the Arabs and the settlers, I felt more secure
when my back was turned to the Arabs than to the settlers'. The
unit's officers and soldiers have serious grievances, both about
the nature of their assignments and about the attitudes of the
Jews toward them... About the Jews living in Hebron they say:
`Their behavior towards the Arabs is intentionally provocative.
They consciously sabotaged our work. For example, they always
knew in advance which Hamas members we sought to arrest, but they
obstructed our searches so that we would fail to capture the
hard-core terrorists. They are interested in keeping tension in
the area, so as to prevent the emergence of any reconciliatory
mood. The settlers have a vested interest in perpetuating unrest,
in order to thus prove that despite the peace process, in Hebron
there is no order. We got the impression that they were ready to
die for that purpose. In their eyes, their own death would be a
martyrdom for the cause of sabotaging the political process'. The
soldiers testify that the settlers often harass Hebron Arabs in
front of the Israeli army troops. They overturn the crates in the
market, kick the elderly Arabs carrying the baskets, spit at
people, spray insecticides on fruits and vegetables, overturn the
carts loaded with tomatoes so as to crush them underfoot.
Particularly shocking for the soldiers was an incident in which
the settlers screamed `Mazal Tov!' [`Congratulations!' in Hebrew] at an
Arab family burying their child in front of an army equipment camp
near Beit Hadassah.

  "But as the unit's officers and soldiers testify, the attitude
of the settlers toward the Israeli army soldiers was no less
scandalous. Even those soldiers who had had feelings of sympathy
for the Jewish settlers when they began to serve, were saying
`this is what bothers us most'. I know that this view is shared
by the commanders of a reserve unit which preceded our
paratrooper unit in serving on the spot. It is also shared by
many soldiers with whom I spoke, including the steadfast voters
for [the right-wing] Likud and Tsomet parties. All of them
stressed how shocked they were by the settlers' attitude toward
both the Arabs and the Israeli army, and by their attempts to
disrupt the army's routines. No wonder the soldiers began to ask
themselves on whose side the settlers were, and whom the army was
protecting. All the events desribed here have been reported to
the area's permanent military commanders, including the commander
of the `Hebron brigade' of the Israeli army, Colonel K".

  One of the unit's major assignments in Hebron was the guarding
of the Patriarchs' Cave, a prayer site for both the religious
settlers and the Muslims. "B. R., a unit's soldier who in the
last elections voted for Tzomet recounts: `Most of us served in
this area for the first time. We came without prejudice... In the
Patriarchs' Cave, administered by the Islamic Waqf, the settlers
keep trying hard to disrupt the officially imposed status quo
between the Jews and the Arabs. For example, they enter the
Jacob's Hall before the 40 minutes of [officially imposed] break
between the Jewish and Moslem prayers are up. They are bringing
food there, which is against the regulations. Some of those who
guard the Patriarchs' Cave are religious `Hesder Yeshiva'
soldiers. But even they report how the settler children keep
spraying acid and scattering thumb-tacks on the carpets of that
Hall. The Muslims now have no choice but to collect the
thumb-tacks with a magnet before beginning to pray".

  Another soldier Y.R., aged 26, who had voted for Tzomet in the
last elections, graphically described what he felt when
Palestinian children were beaten up by the settlers in his
presence: "Two weeks ago an Arab child carrying a Palestinian
flag passed me by. A Jewish woman who saw him assailed him, beat
him up, and snatched the flag from him while yelling at me:
'Soldier, come help!' Knowing that flag displays were already
permitted, I answered that there was nothing to do, since the
little boy had not committed any crime. She nevertheless kept
beating him. Suddenly I found myself in the role of a
kindergarten teacher, forced to intervene against Jewish woman
molesting a little Arab boy. Theoretically I could have told the
boy to get out of there, because it is always easier to deal with
an Arab than with a Jew. But in spite of my political views, I
found it hard to do so and thus act against the government's
orders".

  Let me omit other disturbing facts in Gurevitz's description,
in order to concentrate on what is crucial in his article: namely
on the reasons for which the soldiers cannot call the religious
settlers to order. These reasons are not often discussed by
Hebrew papers now supporting Rabin. But Gurevitz was told by a
unit's officer that "the soldiers are forbidden to arrest a Jew,
except if he hits a soldier, or injures an Arab by shooting in
the presence of an Israeli army soldier". Beating the Arabs, or
humiliating them otherwise, or vandalizing their property before
the very eyes of the army soldiers is not regarded as "a
sufficient reason" for arresting a settler. Let me add that no
Jew can be arrested if he does the same. A rule to this effect
has remained in force since many years, but has never been
announced in public. It is explicitly communicated only to
high-ranking officers. Gurevitz quotes "another officer, T. who
complained that he had never received adequate explanations from
the permanent commanders of the area what is the standard
procedure by which the Jews are never arrested... An Arab is sent
to jail the minute he is seen to throw a stone. But the settlers
throw stones with impunity, or else they send girls or women to
throw stones or to overturn peddlars' carts in the market,
because they know that according to army regulations we are
forbidden to have physical contact with Jewish women, so we can
do nothing against them... Another of the settlrs' tricks is to
pretend to play football: the real purpose of the supposed game
being to smash windows in Arab houses or street lamps".

  That story by Gurevitz is by no means an isolated instance
which happened to be published by the Hebrew press. Tzvi Gilat
("Yediot Ahronot", 9 November) found himself at 5:30 a.m. near
the religious settlement of Ma'aleh Levona, when he had "to brake
his car in front of a barbed wire fence spread out across the
highway. It was still too dark to see the fence shortly before
the sunrise, but several skull-capped youths suddenly appeared
peeking in to find out whether we were Jews. They were quite
high-spirited. `What is going on here? A local initiative?'
`Something of the sort', they answered. `Just look over there,
where our boys are burning tires, near Shilo junction. An Arab,
seeing the roadblock, will turn around and fall into our ambush'.
Several minutes later a small convoy of Arab cars indeed drove
towards the roadblock... An unfortunate driver was caught. He was
standing beside his car, with its doors open. The reserve tire
was flung on the road. Two settlers - one brandishing a pistol in
the air, the other aiming an Uzi submachine gun at him told him
to go away. The Arab started crying. He realized that his vehicle
was about to be burned. `Don't cry', the man with Uzi said - the
barrel ten centimeters from the driver's chin - `our people have
been crying already enough'. `I have ten children", the Arab
begged to spare the source of his livelihood. He took out his ID
card to prove that he was telling the truth. `We are not welfare
services', the religious settler replied callously. I asked them
what they intended to do with the car. It took them a minute to
decide. `We'll give it back to him provided he walks home'. Then,
as a gesture of good will, they let him take his cigarettes from
the car and watch his empty vehicle from a safe distance. Without
the media on the spot, they would probably have acted
differently". Gilat adds that soldiers were not far away from the
scene of the incident.

  Hanna Kim ("Hadashot", November 9) inspected a roadblock set up
by religious settlers from the settlement of Yaqir, where "a
local hero, Yehuda, nicknamed by his neighbors `Crazy Yehuda'
revelled in all his glory. `Do you want to watch how an Arab gets
burned alive? Just point your camera at me', he boasted to the
reporters.... A bus of Arab workers arrived and Crazy Yehuda
yelled that he would not let it pass through. He screamed at the
(Jewish) driver: `You little parasite, take your Arabs back. Get
me some fire, so that I can burn you all", he shouted, and got on
the bus. The stunned Arab passengers stared at him in silence.
Two chums of Yehuda took him away from the bus, one of them
telling him to `shut up'. Two conscript soldiers, one of them a
lieutenant, and two reservists without indication of rank, were
watching it unruffled. `Because of them, I was waken up at 2:00
a.m.', one of the reservists explained. `Isn't it enough that I
have 23 days more to serve in the West Bank, in Tulkarm? Do I
need to do this as well?' The term `to do' was inappropriate as
the reservist remained seated throughout".

  At a moment of quiet the religious settlers talked to Kim.
Crazy Yehuda told her that "they should be exterminated just as
we [the Israelites] had exterminated the Amalekites. [See Samuel
I, Chapter 15.) Not only the males, but entire families, and
their descendants no matter how remote. You just have to seek out
all the descendants'. His buddy, Meir, who was holding an Israeli
flag, upbraided the Israeli media for wanting to be on the spot
in order to document his deeds. `Hitler owed his successes to
Goebbels. You are doing the same'".

  Like other correspondents, Kim recorded the numerous instances
of religious settlers mistaking secular Jews for Arabs. "A taxi
with an Israeli license plate somehow got the settlers excited.
`Let me pass through, or I'll punch your face,' yelled the Jewish
driver at Meir, demanding to see the former's ID card. A dilemma.
What is to be done with a vehicle whose Jewish passengers are
dark-skinned and look like Arabs?" On the spot of another
roadblock Kim witnessed "a near fistfight between a Jewish
secular settler with dark skin and black hair, a taxi driver from
Ariel, and a religious settler who suspected that the secular
settler was an Arab and demanded to see his ID card. The secular
settler was furious. `How do you dare suspect me of being an
Arab?' `You behave like the Arabs do' the religious settler
shouted back. The driver blushed, the arteries on his neck
looking like ready to burst. He clenched his fists, waving them
at the religious settler, until his pals forced him to step
away".

  But Kim also witnessed the "Oriental-looking Jews" who
sympathized with the religious settlers to the point of
encouraging them when stopped. "`Good for you,' one of them said.
`A Jewish intifada, that's what we now need'. After the car drove
away one religious settler muttered: 'The passenger on the back
seat looked to me like an Arab'. But a pal of his comforted him:
`That's not so bad if only one slipped through'".

  Hillel Cohen ("Kol Ha'ir", November 12) reports how in Hebron
a group of settlers went to the Patriarchs' Cave cave for
Sabbath prayers. On their way there the settlers damaged 14 cars
belonging to Arab residents of the neighborhood. They smashed
their windows or punctured their tires, and then proceeded on to
the Cave, where they greeted the arrival of the Sabbath by
singing melodious songs... On Sunday, after a settler was killed
by Hamas guerillas, "Hebron was announced a military zone closed
to the media. A curfew was imposed on the city's Palestinian
residents. The army had good reason to deny the media access to
the place, because evidence of the settlers' rampage was
plentiful. Many huses and dozens of cars parked on the city's
major streets had windows broken. It was an ideal testimony of
the army's impotence vis-a-vis the settlers". Cohen comments that
"breaking the windows of an Arab car is in Hebron an everyday
occurrence which already long ago stopped attracting any
attention". After the army did not let Cohen enter Hebron, he
simply, together with his photographer, boarded the religious
settlers' bus in Jerusalem. In this way he could enter the city
undisturbed. "On the way, the religious youths from Kiryat Arba
kept themselves busy slinging stones at Arab passersby, while
summarily explaining their behavior by saying: `we are the
settlers, aren't we?' At the entrance to Kiryat Arba old grafitti
`Only a sucker doesn't kill an Arab' was still visible".

  Like any Jew, settler or visitor alike, Cohen could walk freely
through "the city of Hebron even under curfew, when its streets
were deserted" with none of its Arab inhabitants in sight. He
noticed "evidence of the settlers' rampages from previous days"
everywhere: shattered windows, overturned cars and traces of
arson. Grafitti in Hebrew, noticed by other reporters, like
Gideon Levy ("Haaretz Supplement", November 26) were in full
view. Religious settlers threatened the locals with dire
consequences if they dare wipe out those grafitti. According to
Levy, the most frequent among them was the beginning of verse 7
of Psalm 149: "To execute vengeance upon the Gentiles"; whereas
the next in frequency was "Death to the Arabs". Apartheid
manifests itself in the Territories also in that the Israeli army
orders the local Palestinians to wipe out any grafitti in Arabic,
even those which express longing for peace; but grafitti in
Hebrew spraypainted by the settlers are left untouched,
regardless of their content. This racist practice has long
standing. The highway from Jerusalem to the "Military
Headquarters of Judea and Samaria" in Beit-El passes through a
bridge, and on that bridge a grafitti in Hebrew "To make
mincemeat of the Arabs" was spraypainted as long ago as 1986. The
officers serving in those Headquarters and the officials of both
Military and Civil Administrations which have their offices in
the same compound see it everyday. But it is still there, even
after the Oslo Agreement.

  As a digression, it would be instructive to quote here verses
5-9 of Psalm 149 which is part of the Jewish Morning prayer,
which is often chanted by religious settlers, and which for Gush
Emunim serves as their virtual battle cry. The verses are: "Let
the saints be joyful in glory, let them sing aloud upon their
beds. Let the praises of the Lord be in their mouth and a
two-edged sword in their hand. To execute vengeance upon the
Gentiles and punishments upon the nations. To bind their kings
with chains and their nobles with fetters of iron. To execute
upon them the judgement which is written; this honor have all His
saints. Halleluyah!" The preference of pogromist religious
settlers for such bloodthirsty Biblical passages is self
explanatory. (Incidentally, the same passages exercised similar
influence on the more extreme among the Calvinists in the XVI and
XVII centuries.) But unfortunately, this linkage between the
Bible and political violence is hardly ever spoken about.

  But let me return to Cohen's report. "The car of M., from the
Zaloum family (he preferred that his first name remains unknown,
"not out of fear, but as a precaution"), stands without tires not
far from the Cave. It was damaged before the assaults and the
curfew. Zaloum: `When Friday prayers were over, I left the Cave
and went to a street where my car was parked. I found all four
tires flat and all windows broken. Suddenly I heard something. I
looked around and saw a neighbor of mine sitting with a baby in
another car with a broken window. Her arm was bleeding.
Forgetting my car, I approached to find out what I could do.
Eventually she was taken to the hospital'. He said that during
recent months, the settlers have gone on this street on rampage
almost every Friday, always smashing the cars. His own car has
been smashed four times already; and he now wants to sell it,
even at half its price. `My problem is that I can't repair it any
more. Due to all that damage wrought, there is a shortage  of
glass in Hebron. And tires are also difficult to find'".

  Cohen also visited the victims of what he calls "an avenging
raid". A convoy of vehicles filled by religious settlers from
localities north of Jerusalem raided Arab villages and refugee
camps "two weeks ago. They broke windows in many houses and set
all cars they could find on fire... One of their targets was the
house of Hussein Bakir in Bir Zeit. His wife, Siham, was then at
home, and she recounts: `I was sitting at home with my one year
old baby, Basil, watching TV. I suddenly heard hard knocking at
the outer gate. I went out to the balcony and saw many cars in
front of the house. Several men threw stones. I was very scared
about Basil. I left through the back door and went to the
neighbors'... The settlers later returned assembling in front of
Bakir's house. `I was seeing from the second floor window in the
neighbor's house how my house was burning. I saw the smoke coming
forth from there. I started screaming'. Other members of the
family called the firemen, but the settlers halted the approach
of their engine and even punctured its water hoses... Bakir's
family points an accusing finger at the army, which stood aloof
throughout, doing nothing. Dr. Rashid Bakir, a surgeon at the
Ramallah government hospital, said that an officer standing near
the burning house had photographed the fire, without trying to
prevent the arson. The family saw him, later, but he denied
having been present at the scene". This was by no means the only
act of vandalism which the religious settlers committed in Bir
Zeit under the army's eyes. The elections to the Students Union
at the Bir Zeit University resulting in the first ever defeat of
a list supported by Yasser Arafat which took place shortly after
this spree of vandalism can be seen as its consequence. But to
the best of my knowledge, no Israeli (or Western) "expert" has
connected these two events. Yet in my view at least, the
connection is obvious.

  The last story is by Nahum Barnea ("Yediot Ahronot", November
26) concerning Muhammad Lutfi Darwish al-Ra'ouf al-Zaru and his
pregnant wife Rima. Al-Zaru was driving his car on the way to his
sister. Due to the beating, Rima al-Zaru miscarried her twin yet
unborn children. Barnea stresses that {}al-Zaru had in his
youthtime worked for ten years in factories owned by Jews and
then learned to speak fluent Hebrew. Here is Barnea's story in
all its detail.

  Al-Zaru, 33, now supports himself by driving Palestinian
workers to work in a rented Peugeot 504 car. On November 6, at
9:40 a.m., he was with his wife driving his car on a highway to
the east of Hebron. Their destination was the home of his sister.
The assault on him was thus described to Barnea in his own words:
"A group of religious settlers were walking on the road linking
Kiryat Arba with the neighboring settlement of Giv'at Ha'Harsina.
One of them, a large, bearded man wearing a prayer shawl,
signalled by hand the car to stop. `I shifted the gear and
stopped the car slowly. Without saying a word, he knocked me in
the eye. I saw red. I moved over to the other seat, but he kept
hitting me. I got infuriated. I said: "Damn you, what did I do to
you?" He put the barrel of his M-16 [gun] against my chest and
cocked it. My wife grabbed the barrel so as to shift it aside.
"What did he do to you?" she shouted at him in Arabic. He twisted
her arm, with the effect of pulling her abdomen forward, toward
the back of the seat, and then he abruptly pushed her back. She
screamed and cried. When I saw my wife getting hit, I said to
myself that my life didn't matter. If I die, so be it. I opened
the door of the car in order to grab him. But other settlers came
to his help and started beating me. My wife said that they were
three or four, one of them a woman, but I saw no one else but
him. They felled me onto the ground. To protect myself, I curled
myself up. They kicked me, stirring me over. I touched my eye and
found it was bleeding. I wanted to grab a stone. But, aiming his
gun at my head, he said: "get up". Then he said: "get into your
car and get lost". I drove some distance down the highway,
towards Jerusalem. I noticed an army jeep. I signalled to them
with my lights. They stopped, coming out of the jeep with their
guns drawn. They relaxed only when they saw my face gory. I asked
them to "drive with me to catch the settlers". "We can't", they
answered, "we are on an assignement. Drive the other way, toward
the roadblock. They will help you"'.

  `On Saturdays the army sets up roadblocks between Kiryat Arba
and Hebron, to protect the religious settlers on their way to
pray in the Patriarchs' Cave. I drove there to tell the soldiers
everything. "Never mind", a soldier said. "Go to the hospital for
treatment, and then come back and wait with us until the settlers
return from the prayers. We will catch the fellow, don't worry".
I parted with my wife, leaving her with her father. I received
first aid and returned to the roadblock. The soldier made a
phonecall and a jeep arrived from the Civil Administration. "I
will take care of it" said the man from the Civil Administration.
I told him: "everyone keeps telling me, don't worry, I want to do
something, but no one is doing anything". He laughed. "If you
wait for the soldiers to do something", he said, "then you can
forget it". He turned on a communication set. "I spoke to the
military governor himself", he said. "He instructed me to make
you stay here until the settler returns. You will identify him,
and we will take care of him".

  `At 12:30 the settlers returned. I approached a soldier and
said: "There he is". "Sit where you are and say nothing", the
soldier answered. He went over to him and said: "Give me your
name, you beat up this man". The settler just kept going, as if
he didn't hear a word. When the soldier asked his name for the
second time, the settler said: "Who are you to demand that I
identify myself?" And he kept walking on, without stopping...
The roadblock officer came over. The soldiers told him what
happened. I was told by the officer to "get into the jeep". We
pursued the settler up to the entrance to Kiryat Arba. I pointed
him out. The officer told him: "Give me your particulars". "Are
you crazy?", yelled the settler. "Do you bring an Arab to arrest
me, a Jew, on the ground of what he says? We refuse to answer any
questions until you hand the Arab over to us. We need him". "The
Arab is in my custody", answered the officer. And he went over to
his driver telling him in a soft voice: "Take the Arab at once
back to the roadblock". He told the settlers: "Move 20 meters
away, then I will hand him over to you". When the settlers did
so, the soldiers ignited the car and just fled. I remained at the
roadblock. Ten minutes later some military vehicles arrived. I
asked the soldiers what happened. "Can't you see?" a soldier
said, "a real war is going on over you"'".

  Let me add that in another inicident on Saturday, December 4, a
Border Guard who happened to be a Druze called upon a religious
settler of Hebron to identify himself. The latter answered: "a
Jew who identifies himself to a Gentile on Sabbath, desecrates
Sabbath and commits a religious sin". The Border Guard didn't
insist. The incident was reported by the Police minister, Shahal,
at the next day's government meeting. Some junior ministers
denounced that religious settler as a "racist" ("Haaretz" and
other Hebrew papers, December 5). Rabin and the two senior
ministers, Peres and Shohat (Finance), however, refrained from
making any comment. And the government didn't issue any
instructions to the effect that settlers refusing to identify
themselves, on Sabbath or at any other time, were to be detained,
charged and brought to the court.

  Two days after the assault on al-Zaru and his wife she had to
be hospitalized for the sake of aborting the fetuses from her
uterus. "At the time my wife was in the hospital", recounts
Al-Zaru, "I kept going every morning to the police station in
order to file a complaint. But the policemen refused to let me
in. I went to a Civil Administration officer whose name was
Tomer. `We are very sorry,' Tomer said, `but we can do nothing to
help you'. Then a policeman, investigating another case, came to
the hospital. I told him my story. He took me to the police
station. There was an officer there by the name of Golan. I said:
`I will take your name down.' `No need', he said, `if you forget,
just recall the Golani brigade, and you will recollect it'. He
tried to sound funny. `Why do you worry?' he asked. `Make a new
baby. You Arabs are fast at it'. But he refused to accept my
complaint, and he also refused to go to the hospital and take a
statement from my wife. `Let her come to the police', he said. He
hugged me as if I were his friend, and then he pushed me out of
the police station". And that was the end of the affair. Barnea's
efforts to press the army to investigate the case were also
fruitless. He contacted the religious settlers of Hebron to find
out whether any of them recall the incident and got an
interesting response from "Baruch Marzel, a "Kach" leader", who
told him that "he remembered that Saturday because after the
Arabs threw stones at the Jews, the latter retaliated by damaging
30 Arab cars. But", added Marzel, "none of us would remember a
case of an Arab whom a Jew merely punched, because this happens
every day".

  The incidents described here, including the one reported by the
entire Hebrew press, cannot be considered isolated instances.
They clearly follow a recurrent pattern. Day after day
Palestinians are being beaten up or humiliated otherwise, or
their property is vanadalized. Such incidents happen wherever
religious settlers show up, and they recently do show up all over
the West Bank, even if only in few Gaza Strip spots. Since mid-
September the conditions of everyday life of the Palestinians
vividly resemble the conditions the Jews lived under in viciously
anti-Semitic countries, or the American Blacks during the heyday
of the Ku-Klux-Klan in the South. The only difference is that the
world media don't pay to Jewish religious settlers even that
amount of attention they would pay to much milder manifestations
of anti-Semitism. Although Kiryat Arba is the largest religious
settlement in the Territories, similar offenses are being
committed, even if at somewhat lower a scale, wherever the
religious settlers are present. The Hebrew press speaks about it,
even if not always as informatively as the columnists quoted
above. Since the signing of the Agreement between Israel and the
PLO, the number of Palestinians beaten up or humiliated by the
religious settlers, quite often under the eyes of Israeli
soldiers who were unable or refused to intervene, must already be
very large. As for the "experts" dealing with the current
situation of the Palestinians and their responses, most of them
have studiously ignored their oppression by the religious
settlers in their "expertises".

  The Israeli government is certainly well-informed about the
atrocities which it condones and supports. By that I don't even
mean the financial and the strategic expressions of that
encouragement which were discussed in Report 129. What I mean is
the behavior of the army which remains supportive of the
religious settlers even in rare instances when orders are given
to detain some of them so as to impress the media. To
substantiate this point, let me quote an earlier article by Amit
Gurevitz ("Ha'olam Ha'ze", November 3) which vividly describes a
typically tolerant behavior of the army towards the religious
settlers. Gurevitz defines it as "let them do as they please"
attitude, which is manifest even in cases of token "detention" of
some settlers. The particular incident described by Gurevitz
occurred near Ramallah. The religious settlers laid siege to a
house of a Palestinian family named Hasunni. For over one hour,
"they pelted stones and heavy cement blocks at the house, under
the very eyes of a unit of soldiers and of the commander of
Israeli Police for the Judea District, Moshe Mizrahi, who in the
process told this correspondent that `any stone throwing is a
crime and thereby a sufficient reason to detain any settler
committing it'. In fact, only three besiegers were detained. They
were ordered to get into a police car and at once let out through
the car's other door. The three were `detained' only after they
were observed to proceed from stone throwing to arson. Others
were at the same time told that they had an opportunity `to
relieve their feelings' which they did wholeheartedly. Upon
entering the house, I found the entire Hasunni family lying on
the floor of their upper storey, in absolute darkness, while from
the outside the settlers applauded and whistled in joy whenever
glass was broken or a stone did not miss its mark. During all
that time, dozens of Israeli army soldiers, policemen and Border
Guards were walking around, mixing with the crowds of religious
settlers. Nothing could escape their attention. A commander of
the battalion of soldiers on the scene, and an officer in the
rank of a colonel were present, serenely listening to two
teenagers bickering over who was better at stone throwing. When
the teenagers realized I was a journalist, they showed me their
ID cards, proudly requesting to have their names published. Here
they are: Yaron Ben-Yitzhak and Shimon Re'uveni".

  A minority of religious settlers belonging to various splinters
of Kahane ("Kach") movement are in a class in itself. They are
supposed to be more extremist than the remaining religious
settlers. In my judgement, however, the difference lies in their
being more brazen in professing their real views rather than in
their deeds. All the bickering between the splinters
notwithstanding, for the purpose of assaulting the Palestinians
most of "Kach" progeny in the Territories are organizationally
united in the so-called Committee for Safety on Highways, an
organization which began its career already in January 1988. The
Committee and its leaders have been openly admitting their
involvement in assaults on the Arabs and their property for
almost six years already, during which the Israeli government has
done nothing to stop them. The last time they did it in an
interview granted "by a veteran member of the Committee, who
requested to remain anonymous", in which "he spoke about the
Committee's character and activities" to "Haaretz" correspondent
Nadav Shraga'i (November 23). Of concern to this report, however,
is the fact that this Committee takes full advantage of the rules
restricting the options the Israeli army is left with in dealing
with the Jews, as Gurevitz described them (November 17).
Presumably as a quid pro quo for their tallying with the rules,
"the Committee members could have carried out hundreds of
actions, but the Israeli army, police, security forces [i.e. the
Shabak] and the judiciary have hardly ever responded". (The quote
is from Shraga'i.)

  The openness with which the Committee professes its aims and
acts accordingly is truly remarkable. Says the "veteran member":
"After Ayubi's murder we used our loudspeakers in the streets of
Kiryat Arba to call upon the Committee activists to assemble at
the southern gate. About 60 people came in about 15 cars. We
planned in advance. We divided ourselves into groups. Each group
was assigned an area. We were equipped with our personal weapons,
crowbars to fracture doors, iron rods, plenty of stones and many
gallons of gasoline". None of this could have been done except
under the very noses of the Israeli army. "Our method was simple,
and already proven effective. We drive with searchlights lit so
as to blind the Arab drivers approaching us. The driver gets
confused and slows down. This gives us two options: he either
gets into an accident, or waits until we pass him by. In the
latter case we throw a large stone at his windshield. The stone
may hit him or cause an accident. Last week we were helped by
dense fog over the Hebron area. The blinding lights and the
stones had quite potent an effect on the Arab drivers. At Beit
Kakhil junction alone we precipitated six accidents I know of.
One Arab vehicle crashed into a police car. In some accidents the
Arabs were wounded".

  Shraga'i  then asked: "Have firearms been used?" The veteran
answered: "As a rule they aren't. We use knives to puncture the
tires. Usually, we try to puncture two tires of each car so as to
make the reserve tire useless. The crowbars are used to break the
door locks. The Arabs recently learned to protect their water
heaters on the roofs from all sides by iron bars, but crowbars
are the answer to that. Stones are thrown at house and car
windows. In the summer we also set fire to every pile of hay we
see and spray insecticides on vineyards of the Halhoul area.
After the Ayubi murder we uprooted two dunums of Arab-owned
grapevines near the site of the murder and set fire to 15 Arab
cars. We arrived at an Arab building site near Hebron. We
vandalized it as much as we could. There was a huge crane there.
In the foreseeable future that crane won't work". Question: "What
happens to those who defy you?" The veteran's answer: "We
concentrate on damaging property. If there are locals who dare
defy us, they get beaten badly. This happened at the Hebron
market, where we follow a standard retaliatory procedure. The
procedure is to overturn as many market carts as possible.
Several Arab peddlars were cheeky enough to put resistance. They
got beaten exactly as they deserved".

  Such atrocities are perpetrated not only in Hebron and the
adjoining area. The veteran informs that the Committeee "is
active not only in the Hebron area, but also in Ariel, Yitzhar,
Beit-El, Shilo and in [the Haredi town of] Immanuel. We have a
handful of members in almost every one of the 140 settlements [of
the West Bank]. 3 or 4 people are enough to carry out simple
unsophisticated operations. For that we don't need more people.
Such minimal manpower is always available to us". To all
appearances this is true. The veteran also provides the already
well-known information about the Committee's members such as
"Baruch Marzel, the first chairman of the Committee for Safety on
Highways who is now a member of the Kiryat Arba [Municipal]
Council, which proves something. And we also have our
representatives coordinating work in the Local Action Committee,
which is the Council's informal vigilante outfit for retaliations
against the terrorists". The same is in my view the case in all
religious settlements, but not in the secular ones, because all
major Israeli secular parties abhor "Kach", Likud even more than
Labor.

  An example of the Committee's performance which occurred far
away from Hebron was reported by "Haaretz" on November 21. The
mentioned Baruch Marzel together with another well-known "Kach"
militant, Noam Federman, were detained a day before for having
gone on rampage during the visit of the President of Israel Ezer
Weizman to Kiryat Arba. Weizman's intention was to encourage the
settlers, but Marzel and Federman nevertheless abused him
violently. When they were brought before the magistrate in
Western Jerusalem (as settlers they have the privilege of
standing trials in Israel), the police asked to remand them on
the groundthat "they could not be found while being pursued
since November 4 for an offense they were suspected of committing
on that day". Let me parenthetically comment that at the time the
two "could not be found" they were engaged in public activities.
The police told the magistrate, Yehudit Tzur, that it suspects
Marzel and Federman of "arriving in a rented taxi in the Arab
village of Al-Hadar in the district of Bethlehem, in the company
of some armed settlers. Upon arriving there, they went to a local
grocery. One of them aimed his gun at the grocer, while others
burned the Palestinian flags on sale". Thereupon, the whole group
criss-crossed the village, burning all the flags that could be
found, and forcing the inhabitants to watch the fires under
threats of shooting and actually shooting into the air. According
to my sources, incidents of this type are quite common in many
West Bank villages, even if they don't occur in the Gaza Strip.
The assaulters are hardly ever apprehended and the Israeli army
dismisses the compaints of the villagers with contempt. In this
particular case, however, the assaulters were watched from a
nearby Israeli army look-out and telescopically photographed,
presumably by soldiers uninformed of what the army really wanted.
The photographs, which were clear enough to identify the
assaulters, were handed over to the police. The latter, which
then had Marzel and Federman under detention for insulting the
President, asked for their remand for 7 days more. The sequel of
the story is instructive. Marzel and Federman wanted to be freed
on bail in view of the "petty" nature of offenses they were
charged with. Marzel argued that "charging him with so petty
offenses proves that the police is biased against him". Accepting
such "arguments", Ms. Tzur freed the two on a minuscule bail, in
addition to instructing Marzel that he spends the next 4 days in
Jerusalem in some place where he could be located by the police.

  Such kindness toward the "Kach" members and other religious
settlers is typical: if not of all Jewish judges of Jerusalem
then of a large majority of them. Their leniency is so well-known
that in the rare cases when the Israeli police or the Attorney
General Office really want to prosecute some "Kach" members from
the Territories, they assign them to magistrates and judges in
other Israeli cities, which is perfectly legal.

  Here is another example of leniency of the judiciary toward
"Kach", from 1989. At that time, "Kach" warned Jewish shopkeepers
of Jerusalem of dire consequences if they continue to employ Arab
helpers or errand boys. On one occasion, a "Kach" member entered
a grocery which employed an Arab, brandishing his pistol in the
midst of the crowd of customers. He aimed his pistol at the Arab
employee, told him to lie on the floor and stomped on him. When
the grocer protested, the Kahanist slapped his face. One customer
was shocked enough to quietly leave the store in order to call
the police. When the Kahanist was brought before the District
Judge, Tzvi Tal (now a candidate for the Supreme Court), the
facts were not in dispute, since the testimonies of the grocer
and his customers squared. The only "argument" the defendant had,
was that "his behavior had been dictated by his zealous concern
for the Jewish honor". The learned judge (religious, by the way)
accepted this "argument", to the point of lauding the defendant
in his verdict as "a worthy son to Abraham our father". The judge
sentenced the thug to no more than a brief suspended prison term,
and ordered the police to return to him forthwith his impounded
weapon. The pronouncedly sympathetic attitude of most religious
(Orthodox, if to use an American term) Israeli Jews toward "Kach"
and religious settlers is unaffected by whatever they may do to
the Gentiles, and it certainly is a factor owing to which both
"Kach" and other religious settlers thrive.

  But above all else, "Kach" owes its good fortune to cooperation
of Israeli authorities, in particular to purposeful inaction of
the army and the police. Shraga'i asked "the veteran" whether the
army "tries to confiscate your weapons?" The answer was
revelatory: "There were some activists, and some people from
[Kiryat Arba] who were not our activists, whose weapons were
almost confiscated. But whoever really wants to retain his gun,
he can" (my emphasis). It can be conjectured that the only
difference between "Kach" and religious settlers is that the
former say it aloud "that there are no `innocent Arabs'" whereas
the latter only think so. "Last week Baruch Marzel, still the
movement's leader, said that all Arabs are PLO supporters, and
therefore none of them can be innocent".

  The most important conclusion warranted by evidence presented
in this report is analogous to that of Report 129. I argued there
that Rabin's (and Clinton's) real policy is to support the
settlements in order to guarantee continuing Israeli domination
over the Territories under the cover of pretended concessions to
the Palestinians. To pursue that policy, Rabin needs to bestow
particular favors upon religious settlers, because they alone are
willing to settle in places like Netzarim, and even Hebron for
that matter. For the same reason Rabin must condone violence of
religious settlers against the Palestinians. Ruling a population
which refuses to accord to its rulers any legitimacy requires a
continuous recourse to violence, however limited in its scope,
for the purpose of cowing the people and keeping them
intimidated. This is exactly what the religious settlers are
doing, and this is also the reason why the Israeli army does
nothing to restrain them although it could restrain them easily.
The religious settlers (including "Kach" as long as it sticks to
the rules of the game) should be regarded as a vital segment of
the Israeli Security System, on a par with the army, the Shabak
and the police which are inhibited by the constraints of acting
as official arms of the Israeli government. It is therefore
delusory to expect that any segment of that Security System may
take any meaningful action against another.

  Another conclusion to be reached from this report is that in
social and political terms, systematic violence such as described
here, even if purposefully limited, is much more important than
the murders (even of children!) or tortures inflicted only on
relatively few Palestinians. On the contrary, the present report
shows that, with the exception of the "wanted", the Israeli
Security System is not interested in having too many Palestinians
murdered or even wounded. It is interested in having them
continually harassed, humiliated and therefore in having them
feel vulnerable, as the serfs of a feudal lord had felt in the
Middle Ages.

  By saying that I don't try to minimize the significance of
murder and torture. For years on end, I was doing my best to
struggle against the murders of Palestinians committed by the
State of Israel, and I was one of the first Israelis to openly
protest after 1967 against torture of Palestinians. I merely say
that socially and politically matters most what has the strongest
impact upon everyday life of the greatest numbers of people,
which in this case means upon everybody, at least potentially.
Such an impact cannot avoid to affect and ultimately to shape
people's consciousness, even though in modern times not
necessarily to the oppressors' liking. In the case under this
report's discussion, mass violence of the described kind will in
my view contribute to stepping up Palestinian resistance,
regardless of what the fate of the Agreement between Israel and
the PLO may be.



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Yigal Arens             USC/ISI                       Phone: 310-822-1511
                        4676 Admiralty Way            Fax:   310-823-6714
[email protected]           Marina del Rey, CA 90292

T.R	Title	User	Personal Name	Date	Lines
1388.1		POWDML::SMCCONNELL	Next year, in Jerusalem!	`Mon Feb 28 1994 23:47`	92
	Aram, There are some important issues in what you posted in .0, however, I personally have a difficult time overlooking the "National Enquirer" style of quoting sources (i.e., sourced identified by initials, "the veteran", etc.). (For those who have never seen it, the National Enquirer calls itself a news magazine and they are famous for reporting all the 'misdeeds' of movie stars and the like - their main sources of quotes are essentially anonymous and untraceable; frequently attributed to "a close friend" or "someone in the know", etc.) Be that as it may, I'm sure you'll agree that an equally long posting could be entered with similar gory details of Palestinian violence against Jews (and Palestinians), with (multiple) government sponsorship. So what does this prove? All of this only highlights the obvious - there are those on either side of the issue who do stupid and inexcuseable things to prove their point. All of which should be condemned. >"`Good for you,' one of them (an un-named Oriental looking Jew according >to the article, SM) said. `A Jewish intifada, that's what we now need'. Israel doesn't need any intifada, be it Jewish or Arab. If one can condemn the actions of a Jewish person who uses violence to make his point, one must also condemn the actions of an Arab person who uses violence to make his point. >But unfortunately, this linkage between the Bible and political violence is >hardly ever spoken about. That most religious scriptures tend to view good and evil in very simplistic terms is not surprising, nor is it surprising to want to see "evil" crushed. Certainly this concept is not foreign to the Koran, whose religious and political violence against Jews doesn't receive much press. From time to time, Jewish residents of Judea, Samaria, and other parts of Israel do horrible things to prove their point; and those actions should not be applauded. From time to time, Arab residents of Israel also do horrible things which should not be applauded. And it should be obvious, but the actions of a few do not indicate that the entire populace (Jewish or Arabic) supports those actions; nor does it mean that all Jews or all Arabs are terrorists. Personally (and I know this is a very heated topic...), I don't believe the solution to this issue is to be found in the creation of another Palestinian state within the borders of Israel (which is in no way to say that I support what Goldstein did). I fear the notion of trading land for peace is faulty and itself based on distrust; i.e., if Israel gives the PLO no land, the PLO will give Israel no peace. That notion itself is minimally "blackmail" if not outright terrorism. Historically, "Palestine" as it was known at the begining of this century was divided into two areas. The state of "Transjordan" was known as Palestinian land and the land (to put it simplistically) west of the Jordan river was known as Israel, the Jewish state. Simple. If there are Arabs who wish to live in Israel under Israeli law, that's fine; but it strikes me as completely unreasonable to ask for one cubic inch of Israeli land to create another Palestinian/Arab state. Consider not only Jordan (which already is Palestine), but all the other Arab states in the middle east. The land they occupy is some 500 times larger than the tiny strip of land that is known as Israel. The historical record itself should alone be sufficient to put an end to the arguing over who should control the land of Israel; to say nothing of the Biblical record (which in my mind is much more important than the solely secular view, but I realize not everyone gives creedence to the Bible). That the historical facts aren't enough in some people's minds to support the obvious conclusion strongly suggests to me there is something else behind the scenes that is responsible for the confusion, and I believe it's based on denying the Truth of the Bible and the G-d proclaimed therein. Frankly, discussion on this subject which disregards and contradicts the Bible has no merit, in my view (and no doubt, there is a view that my argument (based on the Bible) is of no merit). From my own personal perspective (as I understand the Bible), the land of Israel belongs to G-d, who swore unconditionally by Himself to give it to the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, whom He also swore He would return to that very land after scattering them throughout the world. His Word is true and He obviously honors His promises. This same G-d also promised to bless Ishmael and his descendants and clearly, He has done so! Again, we're talking about 500 times more land, and land which, by the way, is rich with oil. But the tiny piece of real estate called Israel He has chosen to give to the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and I don't believe it's right to oppose His will. Many well-meaning people from varied religous persuasions are doing just that and are in essence, blaspheming G-d (by claiming as untrue His Word [and therefore Himself]) and are actually fighting against Him - not Israel. Steve
1388.2	My position - JCK	TAVIS::JUAN		`Tue Mar 01 1994 16:15`	22
	My fellow Bagelers: Let me break the "deafening silence" on the subject of the Hebron atrocities: Let me use the same words used by Mr. Ezer Weizman, President os the State of Israel, as I heard them on the radio: "The shooting of inocent arabs in prayer is an action for which there is no possible understanding, justification nor forgiveness." The crimes of Dr. B. Goldstein does not represent neither the jewish State, nor its people, nor our fellow Jews around the world, nor myself. I am sorry and ashame for this actions, I rebuke the Kahane ideology and together with most Israeli's, of all tendencies and beliefs, hope for a just peace, for us and our neighbours, in our land, soon. I am sorry that the present workload did not enable me to state this before, nor contribute in other strings to interest for me and for you. Regards, Juan-Carlos Kiel
1388.3	My position (2) - JCK	TAVIS::JUAN		`Tue Mar 01 1994 16:35`	25
	The monstruosity of Dr. B. Goldstein's deeds is such that has to be condemned and rejected without juxtaposing to it any other murders or atrocities done by people from the "other side", last this may seem as a kind of justification or "comprehension" of the motifs he may have had. And as such I condemned and rejected it in my previous note. Let me condemn with all possible wrath and repulse, reject and despise, those that can kill a pregnant woman, returning home, those that can kill a father and his son going to school or attack with an axe a retired policeman in Kfar Saba. Let us as a whole condemn those that killed hundreds or even thousands of jewish settlers, whose crime was to live. Let us condemn those that killed thousands of arabs, of their own people, because they did not share their concept of revolt and vengeance against Israel. The only possible end to all this bloodshed is, in my view, as I stated before, to have a peaceful divorce, separate us Jews from the other people, let each of us strive and arrive to fullfillement. Regards, Juan-Carlos
1388.4		WFOV11::AWKAL		`Tue Mar 01 1994 19:18`	21
	Hi Juan I couldn't agree with you more, as you said there should be a divorce between Arabs and Israelis, and we all sould encourage and support the peace process probably some people on bothsides think that violence will solve there problem, but I could assure them that violence never solved any problem. As I mentioned before that the solution for the middleeast problem is a lasting peace and I think the only leaders that could achieve peace are Mr Arafat,Mr Rabin and Mr Peres. I asked a Rabbi, an Imam, and a priest and all of them said violence was never mentioned in any religion, and I wonder why all this violence is commityted in the name of religions ?. If you read any religious book I don't think violence was mentioned in any of those wholly books. Let us pray for peace, I think some day we will live in peace not only in the middle east but the whole world. Regards, Ali
1388.5		METSNY::francus	Mets in '94	`Tue Mar 01 1994 19:28`	7
	Well Islam does have the notion of Jihad Chritianity does have the notion of converting the infidel Judaism has the notion of destroying Amalek, destroying the Cananite nations. So all religions do have some aspect of violence in them.
1388.6	who is Israel Shahak?	ITAI::LEVI	L. Rosenhand	`Tue Mar 01 1994 20:46`	28
	I'm not familiar with Israel Shahak, but it is quite evident that his words are pure poison. "Guerilla" activities are the exclusive domain of Palestinian and Hamas groups. "Terrorist" is reserved exclusively for the Jewish settlers. Review the text. I'll take a quote right at the beginning which simply doesn't wash: "Violent assaults upon the Palestinians in the Territories are in an overwhelming majority perpetrated by Jewish religious settlers,.." If I may assume that the most violent assault is murder, then it is Hamas, the Fatah Hawks and other PLO splinter groups that Mr. Shahak should be complaining about. In this regard, I can't agree with those who have placed their trust in the PLO and the Rabin/Peres government to make a "PEACE". Assuming that a self-governing authority is achieved, an immediate concern for the Palestinians is that there will not be an election in the territories. That control will remain with Arafat indefinitely. Can anyone remember the atrocities of the last PLO mini-republic in the southern Lebanon before 1982? I'd like to see Mr. Shahak's report on the terror imposed on Christians, Moslems and Druze in that time period.
1388.7	Peace is the solution	WFOV12::AWKAL		`Wed Mar 02 1994 15:45`	34
	Hi This is a reply for entry 5 and 6 , I am a Moslem and I read Quran it looks like non of the Ayahat of Quran preach violence . for the Jihad yes , only in self defence , also it is mentioned in the Quran spreading Islam should be done in a peaceful way About christianity and Jewdiasm I am not deeply involved with these religion but I respect them as I respect Islam because the pillar of these religions is don't hurt another human, I would like to talk about religion but I am not this good at it . I would like to ask this question . If the Middle east problem was treated and solved 20 or 30 years ago , how you think the middle east will look like now ?. We could blame violence on bothsides. Jews and Arabs lived in peace for thousands of years, why they couldn't live in peace now ?. I think we should give peace a chance , we really need moderate leaders in the middle east, also we should remember that we came to this world empty handed and we go with empty handed nobody taking land ,money or bulding to the grave. let us live in peace the short time we are on earth and work together to improve our standard of living and help others that they are less fortunate. Recently we muslims worked with a jewish organization to help relief efforts to Bosnia these helps went to Muslims AND Jewish trapped by the Serbs, this is an example of what we could achieve if we work together. Regards, Ali
1388.8		BLUFSH::FALSAFI	Aram Falsafi DECrti Engineering	`Wed Mar 02 1994 18:51`	35
	The whole point in posting the base note was not to ask for condemnation of what that lunatic did. That pretty much goes without saying. The point was to highlight the conditions in the occupied (yes, occupied) territories that make such acts possible, including the almost-complete settler impunity for crimes committed against Palestinians. Who is responsible for these fanatics being there? Who gave this guy the gun and bullets he used in the massacre? Why are settlers still allowed to walk through the streets of Hebron during curfews that are supposed to apply to them also (this according to a BBC report two days ago)? It's the whole APARTHEID SYSTEM in place that is responsible for these crimes. Accroding to a BBC report this morning, the Israeli government's reaction was to disarm a grand total of 7 Israeli settlers. They disarm 7 fanatics that should have never been allowed near a kitchen fork, never mind a gun, and we are supposed to be impressed. Personally, I'm trying to find out if my tax dollars helped pay for the bullets. re: .1 Your so-called historical fact of everything west of the Jordan river being Israel is not accepted by a single country in the world. Even South Africa refused to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel at the same time that Israel was helping it get around all sorts of economic and military embargoes. If the occupied territories are to become part of Israel like you want them to, should the inhabitants become Israeli citizens with the same rights as other citizens? Or are they to be ethincally cleansed out of there like their relatives were in 1948 and 1967? Maybe we can compromise and have them be second-class citizens living in semi-independent "homelands".
1388.9		COVERT::COVERT	John R. Covert	`Thu Mar 03 1994 06:17`	28
	>Christianity does have the notion of converting the infidel Never by force. Any use of force to convert has always been heretical. The teaching has always been to shake the dust from your feet when you encounter those who will not listen. From "Hooray for Yiddish" by Leo Rosen: At least three popes (Clement VI, Boniface IX, Nicholas V) were scandalized by conversion-via-horror, threats of death, the expropriation of worldly possessions, and the seizing of Jewish children as hostages. But the ecclesiasts in Spain and Portugal persisted. As you can see, even a Jewish author writes that the Inquisition was contrary to the teachings of the central doctrinal authority of the Church. But kings have always been more powerful than popes, and there was nothing the popes could do to stop the secular authorities of the Iberian peninsula from perverting Christianity to justify the slaughter, which was actually carried out for commercial rather than religious motives. Paragraphs 2104-2109 of the current Roman Catholic catechism specifically state that all people have the right to religious liberty and that noone may force anyone to act against their own conscience with respect to any matter of religion. /john
1388.10	Lets take the right approach	TAVIS::JUAN		`Thu Mar 03 1994 14:34`	36
	Re: .7 & .8 I read Ali's note and I agree that only through moderate leadrers and being ready to compromise we will be able to reach peace, for you and for us. And only this peace will be long lasting. I read Aram's note and I feel that he is only pointing at "the other" side as responsible. For as long as the responsibility and the shame will reside in the "Other" camp, for as long as the "Other side" is the enemy, there will be no peace. For as long, Aram, that only the Israeli's will be held as responsible for everything, your people (and my people) is going to suffer. Only when you will be ready to shout in public: "Some of my people are lunatics, irresponsible, and I reject and despise their deeds" we might find a common ground to look and even strive for peace. On the same vein, for all the Aram's on the Jewish side, for as long as we will keep seeing all responsibility of this conflict on the Arab side, there will be no peace for us. Not all settlers are Goldsteins. No all settlers are murderers. Neither all Arabs, nor all Palestinians. Lets get rid of all killers, reject their supporters, sit down and negotiate our "divorce". And as most divorces, lets do it not so much for us but for our children. For my children and your children. I'd rather dance in a yougsters marriage and say he did compromise, than to write on his grave: He was right. Shalom. Saalam to all. Juan-Carlos Kiel DEC Israel
1388.11	peace	WFOV12::AWKAL		`Thu Mar 03 1994 18:23`	20
	Yes Juan, that is the voices I like to hear,yours and people like Mr Zucker in the Israeli Kinesset. We Arabs and Israelis should learn how to reject violence and punish violators on bothsides, it was an ugly crime but we have to work together to get over it and comfort the families of the dead people also to confort the family of that jewish lady that got killed a week or so ago. Emotions, circumstances, nationalism and twisted religions are factors shapping the Middleeast daily life and politics.Aram is right it was a terrible crime but incidents like this shouldn't steer us away from the peace process those brave leaders we got that they started . If we let emotions shape our life we will continue fighting for ever. We could destroy a building in one second and to build it sometimes takes years, Arab and Israli existed together hundreds of years ago and I bet they will exist for millions more. Regards, Ali
1388.12		TAVIS::JONATHAN		`Thu Mar 03 1994 22:47`	266
	At the outset of this article, I want to say unequivocally and in the most emphatic way, that the act that was perpetrated in the Cave of the Patriarchs (Mearat HaMachpelah) last Friday morning was evil in every sense of the word, and an unspeakable act against defenceless people who were praying at that time. This crazed act of murder is as far away from Judaism and basic humanity as one can imagine. However, without, in any way or form, condoning the deeds of this one man, who was most likely in a state of insanity at the time, it is impossible to view this action in a sterile manner totally divorced from the time, atmosphere and environment in which it happened. I write as a resident of the city of Efrat, which is mid-way between Bethlehem and Hebron, in the ancient land of my forefathers. I write, as a descendant, according to family tradition, of King David, who was king of Israel in Hebron for 7 years and in Jerusalem for 33 years, three thousand years ago. I write as a Jew, who had the rare privilege, of all the generations of my family since the time of the Jewish Exile at the Roman destruction of the Temple, to come back to our ancient homeland and raise a family on the very soil that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob walked. I write as the grandson and nephew of Jews murdered in the Holocaust, who dreamed of being part of a free national entity, living in a country that belonged to them, but unfortunately never got to see it. Dr Shahak's views are well-known in Israel for a long time, and I did not bother to read the 900-odd lines of the note which Mr Falsafi posted in the base-note. Shahak is on the radical far far left of politics in Israel, and a miniscule number of people in the country hold his views. Before addressing the points in .8, I would like to give readers a brief rundown of Jewish-Arab relations, just in the particular city of Hebron in modern times. Unfortunately, many bloody chapters of the relations between Jew and Arab have been written in Hebron. Maybe Mr Falsafi needs reminding of the carnage, murder, rape and pillaging that was inflicted on the Jewish community which had existed peacefully with the Arabs in Hebron for centuries, in August 1929 when 67 men, women and children were murdered brutally by their Arab neighbours. The mobs went wild mutilating bodies beyond recognition, and setting fire to holy scrolls of the Torah. When the Jewish presence was renewed after the Six-Day War, acts of violence against Jews were again the norm in Hebron. On Sukkot 1968, a hand grenade was thrown at people in prayer at the entrance to the Cave of the Patriarchs, wounding 47 people among them children. The day before Yom Kippur 1976, a wild Arab mob (maybe I should say Palestinian, but that's another story), broke into the Cave of the Patriarchs and destroyed holy Torah scrolls and other holy artifacts. In March 1980, a Yeshiva student Yehoshua Salome was stabbed to death in the marketplace of Hebron. In May 1980, four terrorists from Hebron opened up with murderous gunfire from automatic weapons and killed 6 people and wounded 15 others, after they had finished praying at the Cave of the Patriarchs. My brother-in-law and his 4 year old son managed to escape physical injury. In July 1983, in the middle of the day, Yeshiva student Aharon Gross was hacked to death, by terrorists in the main square of Hebron on his way to the Cave of the Patriarchs. I remember this well, because I was so affected by this incident that it was the first and only time that I went to the funeral of someone completely unknown to me. In July 1993, Erez Shmuel was murdered on his way to the Cave of the Patriarchs on Friday afternoon for prayers. In December 1993, Mordechai Lapid and his son Shalom were cut down and murdered by terrorist bullets as they stood waiting for a bus in Hebron. Three other sons were injured in the same attack. Dr Goldstein, the murderer in last Friday's incident, was a good friend of Mordechai Lapid and was the first on the scene to administer help. Maybe Mr Falsafi would like to tell readers what "Itbach al-Yahud" means. To save him the bother, it means "slaughter the Jews". This is what the Arab mob was ranting for half an hour at the Cave of the Patriarchs on Thursday evening, hours before Goldstein went on his killing outrage, as the Jewish worshippers were inside reading the Book Of Esther on Purim. Oh yes, and one other thing, leaflets were found at the site on Friday morning from Hamas advising the Arab population to stock up on food for two weeks. Apparently, they (the Hamas) were about to perpetrate a massive terrorist action on Friday themselves, and they were warning the people to prepare for a long curfew. An Arab labourer warned his Jewish employer on Thursday, the day before, not to go into Hebron on Friday, as a big terrorist attack was planned, and the Arabs had been told in advance to prepare for a long curfew. Practically, every person in the country knows that a terrible terrorist action is about to be done in revenge (as if the terrorists needed any excuses up to now). Mr Peres, himself will say that the dead are "the sacrifices of peace", and Mr Rabin will let everyone know, in his authoritative way, while the bodies are still warm, that "Hamas terrorists will not kill the peace process". And the rest of the whole world will say nothing, because it's only news when "man bites dog". All the breast-beating and mea culpas that we see and hear in Israel, and the world-wide condemnation will be gone. Remember the 405 bus- attack, the terrorist action at Lod Airport, the Maalot school massacre, the Munich Olympic athletes brutality (they put the flag down to half-mast, but the Games had to go on), the terrorist killing in the synagogue in Istanbul, and on, and on, and on....not to speak of almost daily stabbings and killings against any Jewish man, woman or child. re .8 > The point was to highlight the conditions in the occupied > (yes, occupied) territories occupied by whom - see above. > that make such acts possible, including > the almost-complete settler impunity for crimes committed against > Palestinians. This act was unlawful and despicable as I have already said. It was an isolated, albeit terrible, incident by one man acting alone. I have no doubt that had he survived, he would have been tried and imprisoned for life, which is a lot more than if the shoe had been on the other foot. Every Arab/Palestinian terrorist knows that if caught alive, he will sit a maximum of a couple of years in jail, until he is traded in some outrageous bargain of 1100 terrorists for the returned bodies of Israeli soldiers or in a "confidence-building gesture" by the government. Vide the acts of the past few days, with more to come. > Who is responsible for these fanatics being there? I object to being called a fanatic and demand that you retract that comment. One man acts, and you cast a terrible slur on a whole community - this is the essence of racism, prejudice and anti-Semitism. > Who gave this guy the gun and bullets he used in the massacre? I carry a gun with bullets every day I travel to work - it is for the safety of my family and myself. The gun is licenced and I have a licence to carry it. BTW, the gun belongs to Digital, and was issued to me because, unfortunately, the roads I travel on, have people who don't like me and have tried more than once to kill or maim me and my family. See note 719.3 for a chronicle of events up to 1989. I just got tired of entering any more. > Why are > settlers still allowed to walk through the streets of Hebron during > curfews that are supposed to apply to them also (this according to a > BBC report two days ago)? Don't believe everything you hear on the BBC - it's not holy gospel, to borrow a phrase. No curfew was placed on the Jewish population, however, believe me, everyone in the area is s*tting his pants, including me, because we know that something terrible is about to happen. We travel only in convoys, and even then we are stoned. I got stoned twice two days ago, and last night my wife and I took the bus into Jerusalem, because the bus windows are thick carbonated plastic and also because there's safety in numbers. My kids are traumatized every time we travel out of Efrat, isn't that a great way to grow up? > Accroding to a BBC report this morning, the Israeli government's > reaction was to disarm a grand total of 7 Israeli settlers. They > disarm 7 fanatics that should have never been allowed near a kitchen > fork, never mind a gun, and we are supposed to be impressed. The government says it is acting to protect the security of Arab residents, and it is to be given credit for that. It is not out to impress you, Mr Falsafi. If only the government and security forces could disarm and lock up the Arab/Palestinian terrorist gangs before they spray pregnant women with gunfire or axe 80 year old Jewish orchardists to death or stab Jewish students in a schoolground. Anyone, Jew or Arab, threatening violence should have the strictest measures taken against them, by the authorities. > Personally, I'm trying to find out if my tax dollars helped pay for the > bullets. You seem worried - I would be more worried as a freedom loving democratic citizen of the world of the mad onslaught and rise of Islamic fundamentalism in Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Egypt, Algeria, Libya, Sudan, Syria, in Israel itself, and in what you define as "the occupied territories", and what I call Judea and Samaria or just Yesha. BTW, as you seem to be an American taxpayer, Mr Falsafi, what do you have to say of the alliance between the Palestinians and Saddam Hussein just three short years ago? What do you think of the large numbers of the Arab population of the "occupied territories" and within Israel, who stood on the rooftops, dancing and cheering, every time a SCUD missile fell on populated civilian areas, whilst we sat in sealed rooms cowering with our gas-masks, kids frightened as hll, screaming and crying. You can read my notes on my first-hand experiences of Desert Storm if you like. (Notes 1024.7, .29, .41, .43, .70). Oh well, people have such short memories, and it wasn't nice of me to hit below the belt, and remind them, was it now? Oh and one other thing, Mr Falsafi, what do you think of the Arab gentlemen who blew up the Twin Towers building. Tut, tut. > re: .1 > Your so-called historical fact of everything west of the Jordan river > being Israel is not accepted by a single country in the world. Isn't that too bad, because we have the oldest deed-title in the world to this land, the Bible. > Even > South Africa refused to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel at > the same time that Israel was helping it get around all sorts of > economic and military embargoes. Someone cleverer than I, once said "Politics make strange bedfellows". Besides, every nation has the inalienable right to choose where its capital will be. Sounds stupid, doesn't it? > If the occupied territories are to become part of Israel like you want > them to, should the inhabitants become Israeli citizens with the same > rights as other citizens? Excellent idea to make the territories part of Israel - should have been done long ago. Too bad the current government doesn't agree with that. Nor any previous one, for that matter. Tell me what is wrong with leaving the Arab inhabitants with their Jordanian citizenship as they had, before 1967? Do not the US, France, England, Holland have foreign citizens living in their countries? As long as they behave themselves as decent folk do, they are welcome. >Or are they to be ethincally cleansed out of > there like their relatives were in 1948 and 1967? Yes, this is exactly what the representatives of the Arab/Palestinian population would like to do to me and my neighbours. I am referring to those representatives, who don't advocate use of violence to exterminate me and my family, thus solving their problem. Do not worry, they are not alone. Quite a few ministers in the Israeli government would like to "ethnically cleanse" the Jews out of Judea and Samaria. And to let you in on a secret, even some of the people (Jewish) reading this notesfile think it's a great idea, too. Don't you agree with them? > Maybe we can > compromise and have them be second-class citizens living in > semi-independent "homelands". The way this government is going, they are not going to agree to any such compromise. Heaven forbid. If anything they will ditch me and my neighbours to be fifth-class citizens in some tiny Palestinian state, with no hope of economic viability, making it the twenty-third Arab country. Besides returning to borders which the Foreign Minister of Israel in 1967, Mr Eban, who happened to belong to the same political party that rules today, defined as Auschwitz. Shalom Shalom v'ein Shalom. Jonathan Wreschner
1388.13	Drop the past	TLE::JBISHOP		`Fri Mar 04 1994 18:10`	30
	Speaking as a relative outsider in this, I'm not made very hopeful about the prospects for peace by these exchanges. Until people drop their focus on past horrors, they are not going to get peace in the future. Let me draw your attention to a somewhat parallel case: Germany and France have had two major wars this century, other wars in the last century, and a history of conflict and atrocities going back to the time of the Roman Empire. Any citizen of either side could easily come up with a long list of authentic atrocities committed by the other side. The two are now allies and form the core of the European Union (as the European Community is now called). It can be done. One of the things they had to do was give up the past. Not in the sense of forgetting it, but in the sense of saying "what's done is done--we won't hold on to resentments, we won't try for revenge, we apologize for our crimes and forgive yours, we are starting over". It wasn't easy--and I'm sure there are still Germans/French who still resent and hate and can't forget the harm done to them or their family or friends. But you can't build peace on a base of a list of "bad things you did to me". So, maybe one side is worse than the other, maybe some acts actually were justified, maybe not--so what? There's plenty of blood to go around. -John Bishop
1388.14	y	WFOV12::AWKAL		`Fri Mar 04 1994 18:40`	15
	Hi John Drop the past, words made of gold I bet If you ask a Palestinian he or she will give us a longer list about what the Israli did to them. We really have to forget the past, and give the brave leaders the chance and the time to achieve peaceful solution to the problem. What those leaders put themselves into is an act of bravery more than any military leader, because they are exposed to assasination all the time. regards, Ali
1388.15		POWDML::SMCCONNELL	Next year, in Jerusalem!	`Fri Mar 04 1994 19:06`	25
	re: .8 Aram, I said "simplistically" re: the east of the Jordan line. Interesting reading on this topic is "Myths and Facts" by a number of authors. If I can remember, I'll post an entry with the ISBN number and perhaps a couple of quotes. As to what I would have done? I very much like Juan's compassionate (and perhaps personally painful) view of the need to "divorce". Essentially, you've got brothers/cousins trying to live in the same house together and both need their own space. Forcing two peoples to live together when neither wants to is not the answer (from a secular perspective) and giving up Israeli land, even for noble motives, is not the answer (from a Biblical perspective). Biblically, people from the nations could join themselves to Israel and they were to be treated well by Israel. Those wishing to live in Israel as law-abiding Israeli citizens should be able to do so. I do not believe it is necessary (or right or advisable) to create another Palestinian state in Judea and Samaria or within any other part of Israel. Steve
1388.16	Good luck keep on honouring your G-d with blood and tears	GIDDAY::SETHI	Oh what a feeling .....	`Mon Mar 07 1994 09:12`	121
	G'day All re .5, >Well Islam does have the notion of Jihad >Chritianity does have the notion of converting the infidel >Judaism has the notion of destroying Amalek, destroying the >Cananite nations. All of one true G-d bit has caused so much suffering in the far east and in other parts of the world for the native people. If all of this does exist I hope it stays as far away from us as possible. On the other hand it could just be peoples misunderstandings. If so it has caused such pain and sorrow elsewhere, so it's best to get things clear before inflicting damage on others. One thing I have learned from all of this that the people who say they believe in the one true G-d and there's is the only cannot agree. G-d help us all and save us from this madness. This is not even honouring G-d it's like a competition to see which group has more members. More members equals more business. A rather sad summary of the whole affair. By the way in my country (India) where we gave shelter to the Jews, Parses, Tibetans, etc. we see the G-dest religions giving us hell. Covering us to save our souls, taking our land in the name of the One True G-d. My family died in the partition from my fathers side of the family only my grandfather managed to get away from the horrors. His crime he was a Hindu in Multan (now in Pakistan) a very holy city for Hindus. My mother told me as a young girl she saw the rivers in the state of Punjab turned red as the blood of the victims of murder flowed from Pakistan to India. More Hindus died than the 6 million Jews but no one knows. It looks like Jews have a monopoly over being victims of genocide, the Muslims of being misunderstood and victims of Jewish/Christian plot hence the creation of Israel and the Christians are full of self righteousness. Boy what a bunch of joker !!!! Wakeup you silly sleepy heads and see what you have done are doing and will do. Perhaps then we will have a chance for real peace. Really the more I see of you the less I want to be associated with the two legged animals. A man is only a man when he wakes up and see what his position is in respects to G-d, we are just his servants. We have nothing to give him except for our love. What G-d gives anyone the right to do such crimes ? Is this what your religion taught you all ? Is this not an offence against G-d ? Are we not all loved equally by G-d ? To put it in a nutshell I thank G-d everyday of my life that I was born as a Hindu and will G-d willing died as one. The more I hear of the rather war like religions of the middle-east the more I want to turn my back on them. To this day I have not found peace, love, compassion, honesty etc. in these religions. Perhaps you the people who follow such religion would be better off looking at yourselves and correcting your mistakes, than wondering around the world telling others there is a "false" G-d. Thanks but no thanks, you may keep your G-d I only know of one G-d, who certainly does not encourage such behaviour on anyone's part. >So all religions do have some aspect of violence in them. You referred to the 3 religions only. Are they the only ones ? Do you mean to say that you are the only ones with a monopoly over God ? What happened before Abreham (sp) discovered the one true G-d ? What happened before Mosses was given the tablets containing the commandments ? Come to think of it did your G-d say "Thou shall not kill" ? What do we see all around us ? I hope that some common sense will pervade rather than the orthodox we are right you are wrong attitude. This is what has caused such suffering. I respect your right to believe in G-d the way you want to now let's see the same from others. You are the pits self indulgent, self pitting, narrow minded people. I had to get all of this off my chest. I hope at least a hand full of people would have learnt a lesson from all of this. There is only one G-d and we are his servants let's love G-d and spend less time killing one another. For those who think that this is my country etc. Well actually it all belongs to G-d. We never made anything G-d made everything he is the owner of everything. We are just using and abusing his property we are no better than thieves. Have any of you thought of the damage that the three religions have done the world over ? The pain and sorrow that has been created by your selfish attitudes. If it's not religion it's colour, if not colour it's race, if not race it's something else. About time people woke up !!!! Reminds of this weekend when my car was damaged in a church car park, I am not a Christian I rent a car space because the money goes to feed the poor. I have problems parking in my car space because the good people who attend church have no respect for reserved parking space. To cut a long story short when I told the father what had happened he lost his temper at me. I was trying to see if he knew who might have damaged the car I was hoping someone would have left a message etc. He was threating to sue me for libel if I mentioned the churches name in the police report !!!! I tried to calm him down by saying that we believe in one G-d trying calm down. I again mentioned to him that there is one G-d, his reply was that to the effect that I was different because I was a Hindu !!! Do we have to live like this ? I don't understand you nor do I have the time to. Attitudes like this are the cause of all evil and problems. Can we not look at each other as people as G-d's servants ? He is the only one who can judge us we are too fallen and sinful. Who can say that he has not thought badly of another, envied another, hurt another etc. I am in a catch 22 situation. Because I don't believe in your one true G-d what I say is the devils words and to be discarded. On the other hand if I don't say a thing I feel I am not helping to wake up people. Either way the 3 religions of the middle-east win, so I have said my bit. Good luck and keep on honouring your G-d with blood and tears. Regards, Sunil
1388.17	To Sunil	WFOV12::AWKAL		`Fri Mar 11 1994 15:34`	29
	Hi Sunil Lot of crimes was commited in the name of religions and it is happening now all over the world in Ireland , in lebanon,in latin America,in India and I could go for ever and the list will get longer and longer. If we go in detail blaming this religion and this religion about violence and say this religion did this and this did that we will argue probably till the day of judgement. It looks like some religious clergy are using religion to achieve a financial or political gain using innosent followers to steer them the way they wants to . To solve all these problems religious leaders should communicate more often and meet periodicaly to solve problems and tension arises ,this way they will be on top of every thing , also government should encourage such meetings because believe me most of the problem starts because of lack of communication,and this is an example . One time a reporter asked a Lebanese fighter why you are fighting he said I don't know , Imagine they don't know why they are fighting . and this is going on in most religions. Let us all reject violence and violators we have no place for criminals the world is in a shamble the way is now, hope for peace because every living thing has the right to live happy and in peace. Regards, Ali
1388.18		TAV02::KREMER	Itzhak Kremer @ISO	`Mon Mar 14 1994 09:10`	102
	Terrorism in the Mideast: For Israel, its shameful; for the Palestinians, its policy. by Charles Krauthammer, syndicated columnist. from The Philadelphia Inquirer, 3/8/93 ############################################################################### The Jewish reaction to the massacre in Hebron by a lone Israeli gunman was instant and overwhelming. "There is no understanding, no forgiveness, and no atonement for this horrible act," said the president of Israel. "I am shamed over the disgrace imposed upon us by a degenerate murderer," said the Prime Minister. In synagogues throughout the world, congregation and clergy offered expressions of contrition and regret. Eight years ago, Palestinian gunmen burst into the largest synagogue in Istanbul, barred the doors to prevent escape, then murdered 22 worshippers. In how many mosques throughout the Palestinian world were expressions of contrition and regret offered? And how did the Palestinian leadership react? PLO spokesman Salah Khalaf said this: "We are against the murder of innocents, even if they are Jews." Four Islamic and Palestinian groups claimed "credit" for the attack. Which was the norm. After bloody attacks on synagogues in Copenhagen, Antwerp, and Rome, various Arab groups rushed forward to claim the honor. At a time when the world stands still to judge Israel, one is not supposed to make comparisons. It is considered bad form to point out the double standard by which Israelis and Palestinians are judged. Consider: On Feb. 18, Tsippora Sasson, 33 and five months pregnant, was driving home with her husband and two children, age 6 and 9. Palestinian gunmen waiting in ambush attacked the car. They shot her once in the head and once in the abdomen. Hours later, she died. This murder occured seven days before the Hevron massacre. In the Washington Post, it merited five sentences on page A-45. The New York Times gave it three. Yet there was nothing prejudicial about these news judgements. Ever since the PLO's pledge to renounce terrorism was consecrated by the Handshake on the White House lawn, Palestinians have murdered an average of one Israeli civilian a week. When something happens every week, it goes on the back pages. Sound news judgement. But news judgement is one thing, moral judgement another. It is a perverse moral judgement that because acts of Palestinian are so common, they escape condemnation, indeed notice. There is no balancing one death against another, one massacre against another. There is no excusing any murder. That is precisely the reaction of Israel to the murderer in its midst. And it is precisely not the reaction of the Palestinians--and of a self-righteous world--to Palestinian murderers. Mordechai Lapid and his 19-year-old-son are shot by Palestinian gunmen. They bleed to death in the arms of a doctor named Baruch Goldstein. Such terrorism is attributed to Palestinian rage or frustration. Or to the "cycle of violence," as if this absurd geometrical analogy explains anything. Of course, it is not meant to explain. It is meant to excuse. But never Israelis. How appalled we would be--we should be-- were a report to begin with "Baruch Goldstein, an Israeli religious fanatic, a doctor recently unhinged when a friend and his son murdered by Palestinians died in his arms, today opened fire..." The U.N. security council -- silent after synagogue attacks in Istanbul, Paris, Vienna, Antwerp, Copenhagen, and Rome; mute at the murder of Sasson, the Lapids, and countless other Jews -- prepares itself to reprove Israel over Hebron. The double standard is scandalous, yet accepted as a matter of course. The Hebron massacre was the work of one deranged fanatic. He represented at most the fringe of a fringe. Meir Kahane, leader of the Kach Movement to which Goldstein belonged, competed four times in Israeli elections. The most he ever got was 1 percent of the vote. Yet even that was too much for Israel. In 1988 kach was barred, because of its Racism, from ever running for Parliment again. Palestinian terror is not the work of a fringe. It is mostly the work of Hamas, a Palestinian movement so popular that Yasir Arafat is wary of West Bank elections out of fear that Hamas would win. Nor, like Kach in Israel, is Hamas pariah to the Palestinian mainstream. Four days after the PLO-Israel handshake in Washington, the PLO negotiated a truce, consecrated in a "Document of Honor" . The partnership is cozy and convenient to both sides. The PLO does the negotiating, Hamas does the killing (with occasional free-lancing by Arafat's Fatah Hawks). The PLO issued no apology for the murder of Tsippora Sasson. Hamas claimed credit. It distributed leaflets in Gaza pledging to "turn every day into hell for the Israelis." Sasson's murder was not some random spasam but part of an open, ongoing strategy of terror. Hamas generally kills in ones or twos. Goldstein's atrocity had greater scope. For that he will surely occupy a circle in hell even lower than that of the killers of Tsippora Sasson. But the world is not content to judge Goldstein. It is judging Israel because of Goldstein. Yet what, in fact, is the moral difference between Israeli and Palestinian terrorism? For the Israelis, it is a matter of shame. For the Palestinians, it is a matter of policy.
1388.19	conversion, force and the Church	ITAI::LEVI	L. Rosenhand	`Tue Mar 15 1994 20:10`	23
	re: <<< Note 1388.9 by COVERT::COVERT "John R. Covert" >>> > >Christianity does have the notion of converting the infidel > Never by force. Any use of force to convert has always been heretical. If only this were true. But facts stand in the way. Several weeks ago, the Jerusalem Post recounted the story of the forcible abduction by Vatican officials of a 6-year old Jewish boy from his parents' home. This took place in Italy about 100 or so years ago. Though there were numerous Christian leaders that criticized this action and pressure was placed in the political realm at the time (kings over popes), it was the Vatican who persisted and the boy was never released. When the boy reached manhood a family member was allowed to talk to him for the first time in many years. The young man had been so thoroughly brain-washed that he tried to convert his family.
1388.20		NOTIME::SACKS	Gerald Sacks ZKO2-3/N30 DTN:381-2085	`Wed Mar 16 1994 16:14`	9
	re .19: There's a fascinating book on the history of Jews in Italy called "The Pope's Jews." There was one case where a Catholic maid working for a Jewish family secretly baptized their baby. The Church seized the baby. The family never got him back. I believe this was in the late 19th or early 20th century.
1388.21	well documented fact?	POWDML::SMCCONNELL	Next year, in Jerusalem!	`Wed Mar 16 1994 17:05`	38
	re: .20 I haven't seen this book, but would like to... That said, how well documented is this? There are some very well documented cases of "christian anti-semitism" (a sad oxymoron) in certain Papal Bulls, writings of the "Church Fathers", forced 'conversions', etc., but I've yet to see any documentation on kidnapping (though I've heard the accusation before) and I've been researching stuff like this for a few years now (is research ever complete? ;-). I think we need to be careful to refrain from speculation while at the same time, be diligent in exposing wrong-doing. If that order is reversed and people become diligent in speculating and careless in exposing wrong-doing, evil and baseless accusations like the blood libel come to be accepted on thier face as "fact", depsite a lack of truth and evidence. "Protocols" is another example of this. If this kind of thing (kidnapping of Jewish children by "christians" for "conversion") has actually happened, there are no words strong enough to condemn that. It should be documented, exposed, and condemned! However, if there is no proof of such things, I don't think we should be casual about making such statements. The past two millenia have been filled with enough hatred and mistrust based on misunderstanding; we don't need to add to that score. And to be clear, I'm not accusing you of being careless here, Gerald, I'm just stating my general view on the need for accuracy. I want to know if this actually happened; but I want to know factually... Thanks, Steve PS - have you got an ISBN number for this book and/or, a source (e.g., Israel Bookstore?)
1388.22		NOTIME::SACKS	Gerald Sacks ZKO2-3/N30 DTN:381-2085	`Wed Mar 16 1994 23:17`	3
	It seems to be out of print. I read it in 1987 before I went to Italy. I think I got it out of the New York Public Library. Perhaps your local public library has it or can get it through inter-library loan.
1388.23		POWDML::SMCCONNELL	Next year, in Jerusalem!	`Wed Mar 16 1994 23:29`	5
	OK - thanks. I'll see if I can find a copy somewhere. Of course, if anyone reading the file has a copy and would be willing to loan it to me, I'd appreciate it! Steve
1388.24		METSNY::francus	Mets in '94	`Wed Mar 16 1994 23:29`	4
	Is everyone forgetting about the Spanish Inquisition?? It was convert or be exiled; often convert or die.
1388.25	not into revisionism; but want facts...	POWDML::SMCCONNELL	Next year, in Jerusalem!	`Wed Mar 16 1994 23:40`	24
	No one is forgetting that sad fact. I'm simply saying that I've heard the kidnapping allegations before as well as the inquisitions, crusades, decress against Jews, etc., and to date, have yet to find documentation that supports the kidnapping allegations; in spite of finding voluminous documentation supporting the other sins I've outlined above. View it this way, if you would - have you ever heard people speak of the "blood libel" as though it were historical fact? Have you ever heard people claim that on Tashlikh, Jews were throwing poison into the drinking water to kill the Gentiles? Have you ever heard people blame Jews for starting the Black Death? Not one of those (and many other) accusations is credible; yet there are some who ignorantly continue to believe them and repeat them so others will believe them too. I just want to know one way or the other whether the kidnapping stories are actually true - at this point in time, I don't know. I've heard the accusation and seen no proof yet. I'm no revisionist; I should hope if you've read anything I've written in this file that you're aware of that. Steve
1388.26		TAV02::JEREMY		`Thu Mar 17 1994 09:04`	11
	Re: .25 > Have you ever > heard people claim that on Tashlikh, Jews were throwing poison into > the drinking water to kill the Gentiles? If that's the case, I wonder what the Jews in Flatbush are up to when they say Tashlich at the fountain on Ocean Parkway? Maybe to kill the pigeons? Yehoshua
1388.27	Mortara Case - Forced conversion	TAVIS::JONATHAN		`Thu Mar 17 1994 13:18`	21
	I would like to assure Steve that kidnapping by Christians of children for forced conversion is no fiction, by any means. The case that Levi mentioned in .19, and Gerald referred to in .20, was the kidnapping of a young Jewish boy in Bologna by the name of Mortara in 1858. The case received world-wide attention and there were pleas by many statesmen, as well as the Jewish community for the return of the boy. Pius IX was very active in this matter, and flatly turned down all the humanitarian appeals. Apparently, the boy was very gifted and received a very strict Catholic education. He rose very high in the Church, and became a canon in Rome. He was very active himself, sadly, in efforts to convert Jews. He died in 1940. If you want more on this celebrated case, look up the Encyclopedia Judaica under Mortara, where there is a bibliography on this. The Jerusalem Post had a 3-page story on this very affair about 6-8 weeks ago. BTW the JP is available on CD-ROM now.
1388.28		POWDML::SMCCONNELL	Next year, in Jerusalem!	`Thu Mar 17 1994 16:55`	16
	re: .27 I subscribe to the International (Weekly) edition of the Post and I don't remember seeing that story; it must be in your local version. I've seen the ads for JP on CD ROM and I'm thinking of getting one - I think they have an archive that does 5 or 10 years (?). As for Mortara - I have to plead ignorance and while I am looking forward to reading the sources quoted here, I am hesitant at the same time. I do not want to believe that this could have happened; it makes me sick. Thank you for the pointers. Steve
1388.29		NOTIME::SACKS	Gerald Sacks ZKO2-3/N30 DTN:381-2085	`Thu Mar 17 1994 17:03`	1
	The Jerusalem Post on CD ROM is quite expensive -- several hundred dollars.
1388.30	Two references	MLNCSC::MISLER		`Thu Mar 17 1994 23:47`	101
	I can add two more references to those given earlier. 1) History of Jews by Paul Johnson ISBN 88-304-0997-9 (italian edition) in chapter 4 The Ghetto (I cannot tell you the exact page because I have the italian edition). This book is written by a non Jew (but clearly he likes Jews) and seems to me a very seriuos work, even if I found a small error (he says about Hetty Hillesum diary that it was written in Auschwitz, while it has been written in Westerbork, the Dutch transit camp for Auschwitz, but it is a small error which does not change the meaning of his writing). I quote from his book : "....for example, in the night between the 23th and the 24th of June 1858, a Jewish child six years old, Edgardo Mortara, living in Bologna with his family, was sequestered from Pope police and carried to Rome in the House of Cathechumens. A christian servant testified that that five years earlier, thinking that the child was going to die, she baptised him. According to the Papal States law, police and Church used their rights and parents could not oppose to it. There has been a choir of protests from all the world, not only from Jews, but also from Christian mens, in official positions in the Curch or in public life. But Pope Pio IX refused to surrender and the child remained in catholics hands.(ref 1) This violence, never repaired, conducted directly to the foundation in France of the "Alliance Israelite Universelle", founded : "...to defend the civil rights and religious freedom of Jews..." and to the foundation of other specific Jews organisations in other countries......" (ref. 1 It is not very clear, I think there is a print error, but should be Baron - Social and religious history of the Jews - New York 2) History of Jews in Italy by Attilio Milano ISBN 88-06-12825-6 (italian) Chapter 7 The age of recovery (or rescue? - i am not sure about the translation) from 1789 to today. The author is a Jew who lived in Rome, until he emigrated in 1939 in Palestina. He was not a professional historian. he had a degree in economics and law, but in the kibbutz where he lived in Israel he collected one archive of history of Jews in Italy, coming back every year for some time to Italy to make researches in archives and libraries. His book is very good and well documented. I quote from him : "...In June 1858 in Bologna, a child of six years named Edgardo Mortara, was taken during the night from his home by the Pope police, immediately carried to Rome, closed in a religious christian institute far from any possible contact with his parents.These fighted immediately with all their possibilities for the return of their son; but vainly. The reason adopted was that five years earlier a christian servant, thinking that the newborn she was looking at was going to die, baptised him in secret to give him eternal safety. The act made from the Pope police following an order from some higher people, was, without doubt, a case of a child kidnapping; but the Church refused to acknowledge it, saying that the baptism of a child who risked to die was valid even if given "invitis parentibus". So it was necessary to take away the new baptised from his parent's influence to grow him like christian. Previously similar facts did already happened, and the Holy Office was always inflexible in his thesis; but all these cases had been stifled before they came to the public opinion. In this case there was a large interest and sovereign catholics and protestant from all Europe, personages and dignitaries from all the world tried to convince the Church to give up his position not accetable in the new times; but again the result was negative. When Mortara became adult, he entered in the order of "Agostiniani" and became a missionary for the rest of his life. The sound of this fact had just calmed down when, in July 1864 in Rome, a young boy, an apprentice shoemaker, of eleven years, named Giuseppe Coen, with a trick were induced to enter in the Hospital of the Catechumen. Also in this case nothing could help; not the death because of pain of a sister, the mother who became mad, the strong involvement of the French ambassador. The Pope and the Cardinal Antonelli did not withdraw from their decision. Later Coen entered in the Carmelitan order. According to a report fron the austrian ambassador to his king, this fact played a role in the cooling of relations between France and the Holy See which ended, years later, into the quicker entry of italian state in Rome..." (Ref. 2) Ref 2 : On the case Mortara there is a rich bibliography. The author remembers only the most recent study on the details of kidnapping : G. Volli - Il caso Mortara - Rassegna mensile di Israel - XXVI -1960 Binder 1 On the case Coen - L'educatore israelita - XII 1864 and XIX 1870 and F. Ceccarelli - La riconsegna del giovanetto Coen alla famiglia L'Urbe - XII - 1949 - Binder 5 Sorry for my bad translation, but it is late and I have no time to review my writing. I would like also to add some comments. Perhaps I will do it tomorrow. Good night Donatella
1388.31		POWDML::SMCCONNELL	Next year, in Jerusalem!	`Fri Mar 18 1994 16:40`	12
	re: .30 Donatella, I want to thank you for these references - and yet at the same time, I want to scream at the top of my lungs.... Sickening.... There are no words. Steve
1388.32	Context	TLE::JBISHOP		`Fri Mar 18 1994 16:42`	13
	Note that this happened in the "Papal States", a mini-country run by the Pope. At that time there was no Italian nation-state, and Italy was divided into many mini-countries. The "entry of Italian state into Rome" refered to in the second extract is part of the story of how one of the mini-countries (Piedmont, I think) became the nation we now call Italy. I don't say this to excuse anything, but to give some context--1858 may have been part of the modern world in the US and England, but was still part of pre-modern history in Italy. This kidnapping happened in a theocracy of medieval origin, not in "Italy". -John Bishop
1388.33		POWDML::SMCCONNELL	Next year, in Jerusalem!	`Fri Mar 18 1994 18:16`	7
	Yes, and other important factors were the calls from Jewish and Chrisian people & leaders to do the right thing. While this is important and commendable, it does not excuse the fact that a handful of people actually did carry out this act. That anyone would do such a thing is sickening. That a Pope would is unspeakable...
1388.34	Some more references.....	MLNCSC::MISLER		`Thu Mar 24 1994 21:59`	22
	I found two more references to the Mortara case : 1) Jewish History Atlas by Martin Gilbert - Weidenfeld and and Nicolson - London (Map 43 - in the italian edition - forced conversions) Marin Gilbert is a teacher at Merton College in Oxford. He is author of many books on contemporary history and of many historical atlas. 2) Cecil Roth - The History of the Jews of Italy - Jewish Publication Society of America - Philadelfia 1946 p. 471-472. (Quoted fron Susan Zuccotti - L'Olocausto in Italia) R. 32 Thanks John for pointing out the context. I did not realize that context is not so obvious to American as it is to European. So I added a few notes on that, but I opened a new topic because I think that the title of this is very inappropriate. R. 33 Steve, I would like to make some comments about this subject, but for the same reasons of the previous topic, I prefer to open a new topic. I will do it in the next days, when I find time to do the translations.. Donatella
1388.35	the latest	CUPMK::STEINHART		`Wed Apr 06 1994 19:37`	8
	The suicide car bombing in northern Israel was on the news this a.m. Terrible. Especially the children. Sigh... We're with you. L
1388.36		SCHOOL::SIMON	Curiosier and curiosier...	`Wed Apr 06 1994 19:46`	5
	This news took only four seconds on ABC News this morning. I guess if the killing was done by the Arabs, it is not worth reporting for the networks. I wonder if the international community and Israel government will demand international forces for better protection of the Jews...
1388.37	BBC surpised me	BOSDCC::CHERSON	the door goes on the right	`Wed Apr 06 1994 20:49`	9
	Well a known biased news source, i.e., the BBC, reported that Zahal forces went out to defend Arab villages in the area against possible reprisals. Bit surprised to hear them mention that, they still think it's 1948 and are helping the Arabs in fighting Israel... Afula hits too close to home for me, I used to live in Beit Alpha, used the central bus station many times. /d.c.
1388.38	what's new?	TAV02::FEINBERG	Don Feinberg	`Thu Apr 07 1994 13:23`	21
	After the cover on Newsweek a couple of weeks ago (everyone knows which one I mean), I wonder if there will be a similar cover next week, on the subject of Hamas? The BBC said last nite that there was Security Council condemnation. That turned out to be a personal condemnation by the president of the SC. Wonder if there will be a resolution? And interview with leader of Hamas from Rabat-Amman last nite: Q: "...what about attacks on Israeli civilians?" A: "... all Israeli soldiers and settlers are legitimate targets for our actions..." Q: "...but this attack was within the old Green line..." A: "...they can be anywhere in Palestine..." don feinberg
1388.39	More attacks - but nobody cares.	TAVIS::JUAN		`Thu Apr 07 1994 14:51`	38
	Yesterday an arab terrorist, a member of Hamas, made a suicide attack against a bus. The attack was done at the hour children leave school. Seven inocent people were killed and many were injured. Today we are burying them. There can be no understanding nor forgiveness to terrorists that kill inocent people. I cannot take b.s. explaining they are freedom fighters. Terror is terror. From either side. Yesterday was the attack on the bus. It had a few minutes coverage - after all this is natural - is only Jews that are being killed. Yesterday, a soldier was fired upon. Again, this has become normal. Yesterday, two incendiary bombs were thrown against a bus. They did not hit, nor cause any deaths - so this is less of a news. Yesterday, stones were thrown against a car. Just stones. Only stones. It was the driver's fault he lost control and had the car turn upside down. Today, a terrorist opened fire against people waiting in a bus stop. Two were injured. One of thje bystanders opened fire and killed the terrorist. Terror is terror. Let us all together condemn that terror. But it could have been different. Today, the Day of Remembrance for the Victims of the Holocaust ant the Heroes of that time, a woman is going to receive a special mention as one of the righteous of the world. She is a Moslem of Sarajevo, that during the war saved and sheltered many Jews. The State of Israel offered her shelter now, when Sarajevo is suffering and she has come to Israel, she made "Aliyah", she came as an emigrant. It could have been different. For us and for them. And for the whole world. But it seems that nobody cares. When we are hurt, nobody cares. Regards, Juan-Carlos Kiel
1388.40		TAVIS::JONATHAN		`Thu Apr 07 1994 15:39`	42
	The attack in Afula yesterday killed 7 and wounded 52. Fifteen are in serious condition, mainly with severe burn injuries caused when the car bomb packed with 100kg of explosives and nails exploded. A nurse who was tending the wounded in the hospital, did not even recognize her own son, who was brought in. Juan, do you still believe that Hamas crap, that the media and government tell us every time there is an outrage. Like Hamas are the bad guys, Fatah are the good guys. I just don't buy that stuff anymore. The terrorist (maybe today's jargon, I should say freedom-fighter) came from Kabatiya which is a Fatah stronghold with no Hamas influence. And yet they broadcast on the radio minutes after the attack that it ws done by Hamas. Fatah and Hamas and all the other organizations bent on the destruction of Israel, are one and the same, and must be dealt with accordingly. They all have the same end-result in mind. Today there was a stabbing in Gush Katif, a stabbing at the Erez checkpoint, a stoning in which the driver lost control of his car and overturned moderately injuring him, and then the shooting attack at Ashdod junction, in which at least one man was killed, besides the terrorist who was shot dead. Oh yes, and our new-found ally and friend, Mr Arafat refused to condemn yesterday's attack in Afula in which 6 women (three of them teenage girls) were murdered. I might add that neither Mr Rabin nor Mr Peres had much to say, either. Might look like admission that their whole Peace-Plan is not exactly what they intended. Just while I am at it, last week there were two terrorist murders - one in Bet Ayish near Gedera, and one in Petah Tikva. The victim in Petah Tikva was attacked from behind by two young b---ds with axes. He worked with them on a building site, and was seventy years old. He had to die like this, after having being one of the few survivors from the Sobibor concentration camp. Jewish blood is cheap. Unfortunately, I cannot see things getting any better with the current policies and policy-makers of this government. It makes me puke.
1388.41	I Care, but don't know how to change things	KAHALA::JOHNSON_L	Leslie Ann Johnson	`Thu Apr 07 1994 17:53`	33
	>> It could have been different. For us and for them. And for the whole world. >> But it seems that nobody cares. When we are hurt, nobody cares. Juan-Carlos, I care. But I don't know what to do. I do pray about it. Last night we watched a program about the Holocaust -- actually it was about the terrible indifference and deceit by the U.S. State Department and Immigration as regards rescuing the Jews from the horror of the internment, starvation, suffering, and death unleashed upon them by the Nazi regime. The total lack of both compassion and integrity was awful, terrifying, despicable, and shameful. I am sure that those who deceived the people of the U.S. as to the true horrors happening in Europe and who willfully blocked the immigration and and rescue of hundreds and thousands of people will have to answer for that crime on the Day of Judgement, on some Rosh HaShana in the future. We could have bombed and destroyed the gas chambers at Aushwitz and we did not. Unfortunately, I think the same sort of thing is happening in Bosnia, though on a smaller scale. But again, we, the U.S. and the rest of the world, are standing by while one ethnic group seeks to wipe out and destroy another. We talk and threaten, but what have we actually done to stop this ? I am glad that Israel has offered alliya to this woman from Bosnia who protected Jews during the Holocaust. I pray for the ending of the bloodshed in Eastern Europe, and for the bloodshed in the the land of Israel. I saw the news report last night of the bus that was attacked by the suicide car bomb and cried for the innocent children hurt and killed, and for their parents and grandparents. I think I will at least voice my concerns to our government by writing to Clinton and the representatives and senators from New Hampshire. Leslie
1388.42		NOTIME::SACKS	Gerald Sacks ZKO2-3/N30 DTN:381-2085	`Thu Apr 07 1994 19:16`	5
	re .41: There's a significant difference between the Bosnian situation and the Holocaust. In Bosnia, there are three ethnic groups trying to kill each other. The Jews weren't trying to destroy the Germans.
1388.43	Our condelences to your people	WFOV12::AWKAL		`Thu Apr 07 1994 19:32`	21
	Hi every body It is a disaster, the contious act of violence in the middle east, these crimes that is done to innocent civilians on bothsides and the worse of all is commited by the name of religion if religions encourage violence I am not religious any more . This incident came at the worse time when Arabs and Israelis came into an agreement for the pullout of the Israeli army and the agreement on a Palestinian self rule land. I condemen this and all acts of terror against any human in the middle east . Most Arabs don't believe in violence and who do these crimes are not Arabs. Again I wish a lasting peace in the middle east my condolences to the family of every person got killed or got injured in any violence act. Regards, Ali Awkal
1388.44	this is not peace	ITAI::LEVI	L. Rosenhand	`Thu Apr 07 1994 20:15`	17
	Choosing Arafat a partner in "peace" was clearly a mistake. In my thinking it was an act of cowardice by the Labor/Meretz government. I can understand Peres and Beilin, Meretz and their ilk, but I can't fathom Rabin. Regarding Jonathan's comment (.40) about PLO-good/Hamas-bad ploy: Weren't the 2 arab youths who axed an elderly man fulfilling a 'rite-of-entry' into the Fatah Hawks. This was reported maybe 10-14 days ago. Fatah Hawks are members of Arafat's PLO main group. I mentioned this before, but what will happen in Judea and Samaria once Arafat and his henchmen have a ruling hand? Is the world so rushed for "peace" that it will allow a terrorist organization to rule over 1.8 million people (Arabs and Jews).
1388.45		BOSDCC::CHERSON	the door goes on the right	`Thu Apr 07 1994 21:02`	17
	Arafat was not "chosen" as a partner for peace, he's all there is to talk to. All preceding governments, whether Likud or Labor, have always tried to deal with (an old american ghetto term) "handkerchief heads" in the territories, i.e., the elders/mukhtars, etc. Either you do something about it or you let a cancer grow and grow. I'm not 100% supportive of this process, I don't trust them anymore than any of you. Trying to convince the world that Jordan is really Palestine won't work, and the world really isn't interested in the troubles between the Arabs and Jews anymore, they just want it to go away, like Yugoslavia. What will happen when Arafat rules in the territories? There will be a mini-civil war, that's what. It could actually be worse for the PLO in the long run. /d.c.
1388.46		POWDML::SMCCONNELL	Next year, in Jerusalem!	`Thu Apr 07 1994 21:17`	7
	We do care....but as Leslie said...there is not much one can do but pray (which is a lot) and write letters, which unlike our prayers, will likely go unheard. May G-d comfort those who mourn in Zion. Wouldn't now be a good time for Moshiach?
1388.47	Sorry if I offended anyone	KAHALA::JOHNSON_L	Leslie Ann Johnson	`Fri Apr 08 1994 01:42`	24
	re: <<< Note 1388.42 by NOTIME::SACKS "Gerald Sacks >>re: .41 >>There's a significant difference between the Bosnian situation and the >>Holocaust. In Bosnia, there are three ethnic groups trying to kill each >>other. The Jews weren't trying to destroy the Germans. Gerald, I do acknowledge that Holocaust stands alone in the vastness of its atrocities against a single group of people who did nothing to provoke or harm their murderers. And I didn't say the Bosnian situation was exactly like the Holocaust, I said it was SORT OF like the Holocaust in that innocent and helpless civilians are being killed because of ethnic hatred. Most of the news I've been hearing has all been about the Serb attacks on the Bosnians, and from what I've heard on the news, the Bosnians mainly seem to be trying to escape or dying. I mourn the Holocaust, I mourn the Bosnian situation, and I more the continu- ation of attempts to annilate the Jewish people and the state of Israel. What can we do about it, any ideas anyone ? Leslie
1388.48	just my opinion...	POWDML::SMCCONNELL	Next year, in Jerusalem!	`Fri Apr 08 1994 18:41`	11
	re: offensive The only offensive thing is that innocent people are being killed daily, and have been for millenia in the name of a "god"; more often than not, a "god" who bears no resemblance to HaShem. Besides, Elie Weisel has also made a connection between the Bosnian situation and the Holocaust (no doubt, acknowledging their different circumstances that ultimately end up in bloodshed - both deplorable). Steve
1388.49	Terrorism in Hadera	TAVIS::JONATHAN		`Wed Apr 13 1994 18:55`	14
	Five people were killed this morning on an Egged bus at Hadera bus station when a bomb on the bus exploded. The terrorist who allegedly put it there was also killed. The bus was travelling from Afula to Tel Aviv. Today is Yom Hazikaron, Rememberance Day for Israel's fallen soldiers, and the country is solemnly remembering its nearly 18,000 fallen soldiers in cemetries around the country. Hamas is taking credit for this. On the radio this morning, there was a short item about an agreement which was about to be signed between Hamas and Fatah in Gaza. This underscores my note of a few days back.
1388.50		TAVIS::JONATHAN		`Wed Apr 13 1994 19:15`	40
	re .43 > It is a disaster, the contious act of violence in the middle east, these > crimes that is done to innocent civilians on bothsides and the worse > of all is commited by the name of religion if religions encourage > violence I am not religious any more . I appreciate your condolences, Ali, and your notes indicate your sincerity. However, the phrase you use "innocent civilians on both sides" is a little off the mark. I know what Goldstein did to innocent people at prayer, and this act was condemned loudly and clearly by all. But, daily Arabs are stabbing people, stoning people in cars, axing old people, and blowing up buses. re .44 > Regarding Jonathan's comment (.40) about PLO-good/Hamas-bad > ploy: Weren't the 2 arab youths who axed an elderly > man fulfilling a 'rite-of-entry' into the Fatah Hawks. This > was reported maybe 10-14 days ago. Fatah Hawks are members > of Arafat's PLO main group. Yes, and the Arab apprehended about three days ago for the axing to death of an 80 year old man sitting on a park bench, hours after the attack in the Cave of the Patriarchs was also reported to be a Fatah member. > Is the world so rushed for "peace" that it will allow a > terrorist organization to rule over 1.8 million people (Arabs > and Jews). This comment reminds me of Jimmy Carter's dumping of the Shah in the name of "human rights". Look what we got instead. re .45 > What will happen when Arafat rules in the territories? There will be a > mini-civil war, that's what. It could actually be worse for the PLO in > the long run. Is this what Israel is giving up the territories for? So that there will be a civil war on its doorstep?
1388.51	RE:50	WFOV11::AWKAL		`Thu Apr 14 1994 16:30`	27
	Re: 50 As I mentioned before millions of Arabs believe in peace and denounce violence, also I met several Israelis in the U.S and Europe and all wants peace, but still I couldn't talk for the Palestinian or the Israeli, they live in the Middle east and they have all the right to talk and decide for them selves either peace or violence. All the crimes you mentioned are terrible axing old people, blowing buses, you ask why it is happening. I am not a psychologist or psychiatrist, but of what I know about the situation I could tell you that the biggest motive for crimes like this is the daily violence, the environment the Arabs and the Israelis lived in for years, also this viloence will continue as long as there is no peace. This time is the best time for peace because the brave leaders like Mr Clinton, Mr Rabin, Mr peres, and Mr Arafat these are the leaders that that they will compromise to achieve peace. I wonder why religious leaders on both sides refusing this peace process could be because they are not consulted or promised more power after peace or what?. It could be a good idea if we get them together to talk about their demands and what they could input into the peace preocess to make it the way they are comfortable with . Regards, Ali Awkal
1388.52		TAVIS::JONATHAN		`Fri Apr 22 1994 16:36`	43
	Yesreday the body of a 20 year old soldier on an Officer's Course was found dumped at Bet Hanina (just north of Jersualem) with stab wounds in the back. Calls from those opposed to this so-called "peace process" are for the complete cessation of talks. Yet, the government continues on its merry way, and says because of the increased terror, the talks must be finalized quickly. This is a complete and utter capitulation. Israel was always in the vangaurd against terrorism and against giving in to its demands. This current government has thrown all those priciples and a lot more out the window. As I have said before, this whole process from last September's infamous handshake on the lawns of the White House, is rotten from the core. I wonder what all those who were in favour of it, and hailing it as a great feat, are saying now. Yesterday's victim of Arab terror was the 49th, since September - a dramatic increase. Today's newspapers carry details of another agreement between Fatah and Hamas, after last Sunday's accord in Gaza came to light. Let's not forget that one Rabin's and Peres's reasons for initiating this whole disaster, was that the Fatah would protect Israel from Hamas terrorists once they took control. I can just see it, in my mind's eye. The previous note mentioned Mr Arafat as a brave leader and ready for compromise. What's brave about him - Israel saved him at the last minute from political oblivion. His movement was on the ropes last August/September. As for his compromising, I say BAH. He did not even abrogate the articles in the Palestine Covenant which call for the destruction of Israel. Yeah, lot's of compromise on arch-terrorist's Yasser's part. When, oh when is the government going to come to its senses??? Every man, woman and child here wants peace, but this process is not bringing us peace, but the next war. Mark my words.
1388.53	So what's _your_ solution?	TLE::JBISHOP		`Fri Apr 22 1994 23:08`	21
	re .52 Ok, you think the current peace "process" is flawed. What's _your_ suggestion for achieving long-term survival for Israel in its current environment? "Suddenly the PLO gives up and becomes a soccer club" is not a solution: you aren't allowed to have other parties do things foreign to their own naturre. It seems to me the alternatives are continued war (alternating between hot and cold), or some kind of accomodation. Do you think that a permanent state of war will work? It's also not unlikely that those who don't want peace are doing extra terror-strikes now, deliberately to cause people like you to have your current opinion. The government line you call "capitulation" is partly a response to that concept. -John Bishop
1388.54	RE:52	WFOV11::AWKAL		`Mon Apr 25 1994 21:26`	34
	Hi RE: 52 As Barnard Shaw said " progress is impossible without change: Those who cann't change their minds cann't change any_thing ". I think we should give peace a chance Arabs and Israelis should change and compromise to achieve peace. Yes in my belief Mr. Arafat is a brave man because by accepting peace as a permanent solution to the middleeast conflict he has to be brave beacause he is exposing his life to danger at any time from the radical organization , also Mr Peres and Rabin also they have the same problem with the radical groups in Israel, also Mr Clinton taking very brave steps to achieve peace in the middleeast and Bosnia. As John mentioned in 52. if you don't wants Mr Arafat what is the alternatives, the state of war will solve no problem on the contrary will create more missery for both sides . This was said by one of the American writer after the civil war in the U.S who I don't recall his name he said " The tragedy of war is that ' It uses the best in human to inflict the worse on human". My friend I think the world is sick of wars and especially the middle east, and I think Arafat is the moderate leader that Israel could deal with. Regards, Ali Awkal
1388.55	shifting sands	SQGUK::LEVY	The Bloodhound	`Tue Apr 26 1994 12:16`	12
	>also Mr Peres and Rabin also they have the same problem >with the radical groups in Israel, While it is true that the Palestinians have a habbit of murdering those they disagree with, fortunately this has not been the way within Israeli politics. Regarding Arafat, the problem that Israel has it that to make Peace it needs to negotiate with someone who has authority in the Palestinian camp. Looking around, Arafat is the only one there. Malcolm
1388.56	RE :54	WFOV11::AWKAL		`Tue Apr 26 1994 18:56`	26
	> While it is true that the Palestinians have a habbit of > murdering those they disagree with, fortunately this has not > been the way within Israeli politics. Who guessed that Dr Goldesten will do what he did , people are the products of their environment I don't think Israelis differ a lot from Palestinians both people got the radicals and the moderates. > Regarding Arafat, the problem that Israel has it that to make > Peace it needs to negotiate with someone who has authority in the > Palestinian camp. Looking around, Arafat is the only one there. I think the majority of the Palestinian people trust Mr Arafat,like the majority of the South African people trust Mr Nelson Mandela there fore he is a good choice to negotiate with , I like to remind every one that the peace with Egypt is holding and the two people saved lot of lives, the same could happen between Palestinians and Israelis. Regards, Ali
1388.57	PLO and peace don't mix	TAV02::KREMER	Itzhak Kremer @ISO	`Wed Apr 27 1994 22:26`	138
	Re: .53 > Ok, you think the current peace "process" is flawed. Flawed? It's rotten to the core! > What's _your_ suggestion for achieving long-term survival > for Israel in its current environment? Israel's long-term survival is not dependent on Arafat and his PLO hoodlums. Retention of the Golan Heights and the highlands in Judea and Samaria is a far greater assurance of survival than any agreement with the PLO. > "Suddenly the > PLO gives up and becomes a soccer club" is not a > solution: you aren't allowed to have other parties do > things foreign to their own naturre. Correct. And since it's the PLO's nature to murder civilians, advocate violence, lie and deceive - I don't expect much else from them. > It seems to me the alternatives are continued war > (alternating between hot and cold), or some kind of > accomodation. Do you think that a permanent state of > war will work? Nobody wants a "permanent state of war". That's not the issue. Even if there are no alternatives (I say there are), the real question is whether the PLO deal is better or worst than the status quo. Consider the following: - Arafat has stated that this deal is nothing more than the implementation of the "phased plan" to destroy Israel. - Arafat has promised to abrogate the clauses in the PLO charter calling for the destruction of Israel but the charter still stands intact. - Arafat refuses to publicly condemn violent acts against Israeli civilians. (Rumor has it that he did condemn the last massacre in Hadera but only after extensive arm twisting by Clinton and other world leaders.) - The PLO has made it clear that the future PLO "police force" will not be responsible for protecing the Jewish residents of Yesha. They have proclaimed that they will not act against the Hamas. - Arafat has repeatedly demanded to free jailed Hamas murderers as a condition to signing the agreement. (The Hamas is still advocating a continued armed struggle to destroy Israel.) - Terror is on the rise since the signing of the Oslow agreement. - Even the most moderate Palestinians have repeatedly stated that without Arab rule over (Eastern) Jerusalem, there will never be peace. Even the most leftist Israeli officials have repeatedly stated that Jerusalem is the red line - i.e. it will remain forever united and under Jewish control. With this in mind, Israel is still handing over to the PLO all of Judea, Sameria and Gaza including the strategic highlands. I can go on but I think you get the general idea. Even the miserable status quo is better than the future this agreement has in store for us. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Re: .54 > As Barnard Shaw said " progress is impossible without change: Those > who cann't change their minds cann't change any_thing ". Hitler sure changed a lot but I wouldn't call that progress. > I think we should give peace a chance Arabs and Israelis should > change and compromise to achieve peace. Agreed. But not at any price. > Yes in my belief Mr. Arafat is a brave man because by accepting peace > as a permanent solution to the middleeast conflict he has to be brave > beacause he is exposing his life to danger at any time from the radical > organization , That would make the Jewish residents of Yesha superheros. The Hamas has issued a death warrant on all Jewish residents of Yesha. Their lives are exposed to danger on a daily basis and they don't have bodyguards to protect them. > As John mentioned in 52. if you don't wants Mr Arafat what is the > alternatives, the state of war will solve no problem on the contrary will > create more missery for both sides . True, war is hell. But the quest for peace is a lame excuse for a one-sided deal with a terrorist organization that still hopes to achieve Israel eventual total destruction. Remember Munich? Chamberlain also boasted of bringing "peace in our time". Years later he explained: "everything would have been all right if only Hitler hadn't lied to me". -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Re: .56 >Who guessed that Dr Goldesten will do what he did , That's just the point! Noone would have guessed it! It's not expected from the Israelis -- it _is_ expected of the Arabs. Since the beginning of the initfada, the Arabs have committed thousands of acts of terror including over 200 murders of Israelis and some 900 murders of their own people. Violence from Muslim fundamentalists plagues countries from India to the USA. Israelis from the entire political spectrum have publicly and unequivocally denounced the handful of cases in which Jews committed violent acts against innocent Arabs. No one had to beg us or threaten us to condemn them -- it is a natural reaction for Jews. >people are the >products of their environment I don't think Israelis differ a lot >from Palestinians both people got the radicals and the moderates. Moderate and radical are relative terms especially when talking about the Palestinians. Arabs can walk freely, without fear in any Jewish settlement -- be it Tel Aviv or Tekoa. The opposite is not true. The most moderate PLO member would like to "liberate" all of "Palestine" and make it Judenrein. (Have you forgotten? PLO = "Palestine Liberation Organization") Yes, there are true Palestinian moderates. About 1000 of them have been brutally murdered by their PLO and Hamas brethren. The others don't dare speak out. They dread the fate that awaits them when those you call moderate take over. -Itzhak
1388.58	What would work for you?	TLE::JBISHOP		`Thu Apr 28 1994 01:32`	50
	re .57 What (as I asked a long time ago in another note), are the defensible borders of Israel? What parts must stay, what parts can be traded off without much risk? You mention the Golan, for example, as a requirement--what about Gaza and the Jordan valley? What about the Negev? What would be needed to achieve security? Does it require moving non-Jews out of certain areas? Which areas? This is a serious question--I'm not trying to make a rhetorical point, but to find out from someone on the ground what Israel's requirements are. My reading of history tells me that that particular part of the world doesn't have a clear defensible unit, that it is usually included in a larger state based in either Egypt, Mesopotamia or Anatolia, and that it tends to be the location of the battles between such bigger states. My understanding of the current settlement is that there are large numbers of non-Jews inside Israel proper, and larger numbers in the occupied territories or whatever they are called, and that they in general don't like (or won't help support) Israel, even if they are not actively opposed, and that they consititue a large minority in Israel proper and half or more than half of the whole when the territories are included. Put together, this seems to imply that a Jewish ethnic state is going to have a very hard time if it can't set up some lasting structure of peace supported by outside powers. Otherwide (in a permanent state of war) it will eventually lose one of the "hot" phases, and be wiped out. Of course, if the whole point of the ethnic state is to have populations in particular places (e.g. Hebron), then the defense burden is increased, as the places aren't chosen with a view to a good military perimeter. This is only a local variant of why there's an Israel in the first place, though, so I guess another approach would be to ask what the minimum set of holy places is. -John Bishop
1388.59	re: 57	WFOV11::AWKAL		`Thu Apr 28 1994 22:33`	113
	> Hitler sure changed a lot but I wouldn't call that progress. I don't think Barnard Shaw ment the changes Hitler did, Hitler and his followers were a real professional criminals not to Jews alone but to the whole world, we try to change things to make it better, and if it dosn't work we always could go back to the old ways. > Agreed. But not at any price. I think the price of peace is very very low if it is compared to the price people pay for wars, in the 1967 war 100,000 thousand Egyptions die, in 1972 war 8,000 thousand Israeli die and probably 50,000 thousands Egyptions and Syrians die, do you like this trend to continue ?, who is suffering from all these wars?, the only loosers are the poor masses on bothsides. I think if we compromise a little we all could be winners. > That would make the Jewish residents of Yesha superheros. The Hamas has > issued a death warrant on all Jewish residents of Yesha. Their lives > are exposed to danger on a daily basis and they don't have bodyguards > to protect them. I think the peace agreement state that citizens on bothsides should be protected, and if any organization or party still insist on violence they should be punished severly. > True, war is hell. But the quest for peace is a lame excuse for a > one-sided deal with a terrorist organization that still hopes to > achieve Israel eventual total destruction. If you think it is one sided deal that is you right to think the way you wish, I think this deal is good not only to Arabs and Israelis but to the whole world. > Remember Munich? Chamberlain also boasted of bringing "peace in our > time". Years later he explained: "everything would have been all right > if only Hitler hadn't lied to me". Hitler was a sick person. Even if Arafat is not telling his true intention, Israel could refuse this peace, also now we got the U.N to oversee and observe. Be sure that the peace process is going the right way like the peace with Egypt. Add to this Israel is the strongest nation militarly in the Middle east I don't think Palestinian could do any damage to Israel even if they wants to . -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > That's just the point! Noone would have guessed it! It's not expected > from the Israelis -- it _is_ expected of the Arabs. Since the beginning > of the initfada, the Arabs have committed thousands of acts of terror > including over 200 murders of Israelis and some 900 murders of their > own people. Violence from Muslim fundamentalists plagues countries from > India to the USA. The PLO are not responsible for the acts of others, and the PLO couldn't control everybody, if a group of people wants to achieve their aim by violent means they should be punished severly. > Israelis from the entire political spectrum have publicly and > unequivocally denounced the handful of cases in which Jews committed > violent acts against innocent Arabs. No one had to beg us or threaten > us to condemn them -- it is a natural reaction for Jews. Millions of Arabs denounce violence and few who really wants this violence to continue. > Moderate and radical are relative terms especially when talking about > the Palestinians. Arabs can walk freely, without fear in any Jewish > settlement -- be it Tel Aviv or Tekoa. The opposite is not true. Arabs got beaten, and there property got damaged and their houses blown up by Israelis, and some of them were sent to Lebanon with 50 dollars in their pocket, they were never tried for any crime except they were suspected of colaborting with Hamas. > The most moderate PLO member would like to "liberate" all of "Palestine" > and make it Judenrein. (Have you forgotten? PLO = "Palestine Liberation > Organization") Also Israeli radicals shouts death to the Arabs and kick the Arabs from Israel completely. The PLO are willing to negotiate peace, so that is good step and they change, and I think they will respect the peace agreement, and if they don't, then they will be committing the biggest mistake in their life. > Yes, there are true Palestinian moderates. About 1000 of them have been > brutally murdered by their PLO and Hamas brethren. The others don't dare > speak out. They dread the fate that awaits them when those you call > moderate take over. You said it 1000 got killed in the name of peace, this means not all Pal- estinians wish violence. I think the Palestinians are getting beaten and tens of thousands are in Israeli prisons even without trial even amnesty international asking the Israeli government for explanation on the torture of Lebanese prisoners in El-kiyam prison, and why their families couldn't visit them?. I think peace will be beneficial to the Israeli side as much it is for the Arabs. I think the U.N are very serious this time to achieve peace, everyone of us is entitled to his opinion, but for me I will always wish peace upon humanity not only in the middle east but all over the world, I think peace is the wish of God . Ali
1388.60		TAV02::KREMER	Itzhak Kremer @ISO	`Sun May 01 1994 09:25`	117
	Re: .59 >we try to change things to make it better, and if it dosn't >work we always could go back to the old ways. Did you ever try to unscramble an egg? >> Agreed. But not at any price. > >I think the price of peace is very very low if it is compared to the price >people pay for wars, in the 1967 war 100,000 thousand Egyptions die, in >1972 war 8,000 thousand Israeli die and probably 50,000 thousands Egyptions >and Syrians die, do you like this trend to continue ?, First of all, get your figures straight. The combined casualties of all the Israeli wars for both Arabs and Jews did not reach 100,000. In the 6-day War (1967), approximately 10,000 Egyptians and less than 800 Israelis were killed. In the Yom Kippur War (1973 -- not 1972!) the Egyptian lost about 15,000, Syrians 3,500 and Israelis 2,600. You don't have to inflate the numbers to make your point. >who is suffering from >all these wars?, the only loosers are the poor masses on bothsides. >I think if we compromise a little we all could be winners. What exactly is the PLO's "compromise"? The recognition of Israel? -- we exist without their recognition. Again I repeat, control of the Golan Heights and the Central Highlands will do more to prevent Israeli casualties than any pact with the PLO terrorists. >I think the peace agreement state that citizens on bothsides should be >protected, and if any organization or party still insist on violence >they should be punished severly. OK, then the Hamas and Fatah Hawks should be severly punished. But unfortunately Arafat does not agree. >Hitler was a sick person. So is Arafat. >Even if Arafat is not telling his true intention, Israel could refuse this >peace, Right -- but she is not refusing it. That's what's so frustrating. >also now we got the U.N to oversee and observe. They're purpose is to make sure that the Jews don't misbehave. They'll have no affect on Arab terror activities. >Be sure that the peace process is going the right way like the peace with >Egypt. I'm sure it's NOT going the right way. >Add to this Israel is the strongest nation militarly in the Middle east >I don't think Palestinian could do any damage to Israel even if they >wants to . Now you've got it! Arafat's reasoning is that because Israel is so militarily strong, there is no way the Palestinians can destroy her today by force. So they're doing it diplomatically. That's what Arafat calls the "phased plan" -- grab what you can now, and wait for an opportunity to finish the job. Military might does not guarantee survival. In the Yom Kippur war, Israel was close to annihilation. It was Nixon's airlift, the Golan Heights, the Sinai desert and G-d's grace that prevented Syria and Egypt from entering Tel-Aviv. >The PLO are not responsible for the acts of others, and the PLO couldn't >control everybody, if a group of people wants to achieve their aim by violent >means they should be punished severly. But shouldn't the PLO be responsible for their own acts!!?? Since the signing of the Oslow agreement, Fatah members were involved in at least 37 terrorist incidents resulting in 6 Israeli dead and 24 wounded. Although the Fatah is under the direct command of Arafat, he did not even reprimand them, let alone expell them from the organization. Instead, Arafat is working to free all Palestinian terrorists from prison!! >Millions of Arabs denounce violence and few who really wants this violence >to continue. Millions of Arabs condone violence against Israelis. Millions of Arabs want Israel destroyed! >> Moderate and radical are relative terms especially when talking about >> the Palestinians. Arabs can walk freely, without fear in any Jewish >> settlement -- be it Tel Aviv or Tekoa. The opposite is not true. > >Arabs got beaten, and there property got damaged and their houses blown >up by Israelis, and some of them were sent to Lebanon with 50 dollars in >their pocket, they were never tried for any crime except they were >suspected of colaborting with Hamas. They were Hamas leaders and activists who openly advocated and abetted terror. Are you comparing the daily stonings, fire bombings, stabbings and shootings of Israeli civilians with the measures taken against terrorists? >> The most moderate PLO member would like to "liberate" all of "Palestine" >> and make it Judenrein. (Have you forgotten? PLO = "Palestine Liberation >> Organization") > >Also Israeli radicals shouts death to the Arabs and kick the Arabs from >Israel completely. You label those Israelis as "radical", but the PLO you label "moderate". That's precisely the double standard I'm referring to. -Itzhak
1388.61	Re: 60	WFOV12::AWKAL		`Mon May 02 1994 22:09`	13
	Re: 60 People with your mentality created Hamas, Plo, Hezbolah, and probably the radical jews . when I read your reply you sounded like you are angry from 99 % of the people on this earth. I think peace will prevail if you like it or not it is not up to you or me, it is for the majority to decide, exactly like what happened in South Africa. I don't think my dialogue with you is going to lead us to any constructive results.
1388.62		TAV02::KREMER	Itzhak Kremer @ISO	`Tue May 03 1994 11:28`	21
	Ali- >People with your mentality created Hamas, Plo, Hezbolah, and probably >the radical jews . I'm happy to see that you are finally grouping the "moderate" plo together with the Hamas and Hizbullah. I presented opinions backed by facts. I didn't resort to personal insults. Do you have any valid arguments against my claims or did you open this discussion only to serve your personal agenda? >I don't think my dialogue with you is going to lead us to any constructive >results. Certainly not with your attitude. Besides, this is an open discussion for anyone -- you are free to participate or withdraw at anytime. Hoping for a true peace, -Itzhak
1388.63	A different view	TAVIS::JONATHAN		`Tue May 03 1994 13:52`	77
	Re: 61 >People with your mentality created Hamas, Plo, Hezbolah, and probably >the radical jews . >when I read your reply you sounded like you are angry from 99 % of the >people on this earth. Ali, you are beginning to get on my nerves. When you resort to personal insults - you are in a bad way. You lump together PLO, Hamas, and Hizbullah with Jews whose views do not toe the government line, and whom you label as radical. Good that you put together PLO and Hamas in one boat - this is exactly what I said in one of my notes (.40) a month ago. And the main headline on yesterday's front page of Yediot Aharonot quoted the Israeli C-of-S General Barak as saying "PLO and Hamas have the same objective: a Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital". You mouth/write sweet platitudes about peace and majority rule etc. Where do you get your updates on the current situation on the ground from? Weekly issues of Newsweek which are stale and in any case biased? Or from CNN newscasts which show you exactly what the reporter and photographer edited and showed you? I happen to live on what you call the West Bank, in Efrat, and I can tell you straight facts from what's happening round about - as well as what the government-run radio and TV or the newspapers decide not to report or to playdown. Have you been under attack, whilst driving, from terrorists throwing rocks and iron bars as I have? Have you had your skull fractured from rocks, like two of my neighbours? Did you hear about the two terrorists at Neve Dekalim who lay in wait for a young 23-year old mother of two. She closed the front door of her house on the way to synagogue last Saturday week with her two children, 13 months and 3 weeks old, and was stabbed brutally in the chest, neck and arms until the blade of the knives broke? Do you know that the current government coalition is at present 53 out of 120 members of the Knesset? Do you know that three members of the Labour Alignment were expelled last week for breaking away to contest the Histadrut Trade Union elections? No - of course not. You just mouth sweet nothings about peace and decision of the majority from wherever you are. Not only is the general population split down the middle over this whole process - nobody is calling it a" peace" process anymore - but the government does not even have a majority coalition. It relies on a few Arab MKs, whose loyalty to the Jewish state and the Zionist ideal is very suspect, put mildly. >I think peace will prevail if you like it or not it is not up to you This is NOT peace. Repeat again after me, this is NOT peace. This is the weak-kneed attitude of the men currently in power, to the well- constructed Arab media onslaught and determination. [BTW, you mentioned South Africa - did you know that 200,000 (yes TWO HUNDRED THOUSAND) people have been killed in the last couple of months in the fighting in Rwanda - nah, the media is not interested in that - Jew/Israel bashing is much more fun]. >or me, it is for the majority to decide, exactly like what happened in >South Africa. Well, I guess we Jews, should just pack our bags and move on again, because 4 million Jews are definitely not a majority compared with the hundreds of millions Arabs round about. >I don't think my dialogue with you is going to lead us to any constructive >results. My friend, I am not trying to convince you of anything. I am trying to let the people who read these notes, and may be gullibly taken in by what you and others write, have a different perspective on the situation. Jonathan Wreschner
1388.64	Look at the bigger picture	TLE::JBISHOP		`Tue May 03 1994 19:16`	29
	re .63 So what's _your_ suggestion for a peace settlement, Jonathan? I keep asking this, and no-one seems to have a suggestion, which is odd. Living in Israel, you may have a better idea than I do of what would seem "fair enough" to all sides to be viable. Killing people is bad, but if you just focus on individual acts, you'll be caught in a cycle of revenge which won't end. And you miss the context of the act. If I try to imagine what it would take for me to be willing to kill a young woman in front of her children, I have to assume the killers are very strongly motivated and believe they have no other way out. You can't assume that somehow there are a lot of psychopathic sadists just waiting around the Arab areas for an excuse--they are not just "sickos", they believe what they are doing makes sense. I can sense the anger and fear that you feel. Can you put it aside for a second to imagine what you would do if you were a Palestinian in the territories? I suspect they are angry and fearful, and have a long list of bad things done to people they know, too. Please note: I'm NOT saying "murder is ok if you're scared". I'm saying "revenge won't bring an end to war" and "if you're stuck deep in your own feelings, you can't see the big picture". And the big picture here is that Israel will eventually lose a war, if it keeps fighting wars. -John Bishop
1388.65		TAVIS::JONATHAN		`Tue May 03 1994 19:36`	71
	re .64 > So what's _your_ suggestion for a peace settlement, Johnathan? > I keep asking this, and no-one seems to have a suggestion, which > is odd. I am preparing an answer to this, and you also asked for defensible borders. If you reread my note (.12) you will get a fair idea of what I think. > Killing people is bad, but if you just focus on individual acts, > you'll be caught in a cycle of revenge which won't end. You have a serious fallacy here. There is NO cycle of revenge. You might find this hard to believe, but the most that ever happens is a wimpy little demonstration by a few people who are angry that there is no personal security. > And you miss the context of the act. Jeepers creepers, do I read you right??? There is a way to condone such an act??!! And if you saw a Nazi snatching a child from a Jewish woman's arms in order to smash its head on the ground, you would also say I "miss the context of the act"???? > If I try to imagine what it would > take for me to be willing to kill a young woman in front of her > children, I have to assume the killers are very strongly motivated > and believe they have no other way out. These people, if you still want to use that term, are animals. Maybe that's not being fair to the animals - I can't think of any species that does these things to its kind. What sort of strong motivation are you talking about?? They are criminals of the worst lowest order. Do you think of the Boston Strangler or other serial sadistic killers as being strongly motivated??? > You can't assume that > somehow there are a lot of psychopathic sadists just waiting > around the Arab areas for an excuse--they are not just "sickos", > they believe what they are doing makes sense. See above - why can't I assume that people who act like this are not just plain killers. They aren't decent folks, no matter how strongly motivated you think they are. They do these things for two main reasons. One, they are promised paradise by their religious leaders, and two they know that nothing much will happen to them if caught. They will sit a few years at maximum in jail, with their friends, learn new methods of killing Jews, and then be released. Did you know that Arafat demanded, and is getting, the release of thousands of such terrorists in the current negotiations? > I can sense the anger and fear that you feel. Can you put it aside > for a second to imagine what you would do if you were a Palestinian > in the territories? No thanks, I have to deal with my frantic wife who worries sick every time I leave the house and don't call her that I have arrived safely at my destination, and with my kids who sit nervously in the backseat with windows up as we drive through bad areas. > And the big > picture here is that Israel will eventually lose a war, if it keeps > fighting wars. Since time immemorial, people have been fighting over this tiny area. It won't change now - even with Mr Peres's "great prophetic visions". The way you phrase your statement you seem to be blaming Israel for the permanent state of war. Israel has fought and won every war imposed on it, and woe betide us, if that ever changes. Yes, it would definitely solve a lot of problems if every Jew, man and woman, young and old, were to pack their bags and just disappear. Then the state of war would cease to exist.
1388.66	responses to .65	TLE::JBISHOP		`Tue May 03 1994 22:52`	60
	re .65 I look forward to the proposed borders, thanks. In .12 you mention the Bible as your title-deed. You do understand that many people won't credit this as sufficient? Not only does this idea require belief in the Bible as true, it requires a set of other beliefs that are arguable (e.g. that current Jews are the descendants of Bibical ones; that current Jews are keeping the covenant; that there has been no change to the covenant; that the interpretation of which land should be literal--you get the picture). I don't wish to argue any of these points, as long as you agree that they are not items of universal agreement. re "cycle of revenge": --------------------- I think you have to count jailings and other police actions as the Israeli part of the cycle. While you think of them as justifiable police actions, they may think they are not justifiable at all. You think Israel is a legitimate government, they (some of them) think it is an occupying power with no legitimacy. re context: ---------- I'm not a believer that to understand all is to forgive all. When I ask for context, I'm NOT suggesting that you condone the act. I don't condone it. But consider that context changes how one feels about acts: that's why we distinguish between natural death, death by accident, manslaughter, negligent homicide, murder in various degrees and during war between killings in battle and out. You context seems to be that "they" are just wild animals. Their context might be (I don't know, but I suspect) that they are fighting a war against an overwhelmingly powerful and evil foe. In that case, your context is a barrier to fixing things, as it will cause you to fail to understand what's going on in their minds, and to mis-predict, and to fail to be able to negotiate or defend efficiently, whichever you choose. While people like Jeffery Dahmer and Ted Bundy do appear from time to time, they are _rare_; you don't get large numbers of terrorists by recruiting psychopaths. There just aren't enough of them. re "imagine": ------------ Note that you don't have to agree with your opponents to understand better what drives them. But you do have to get out of a purely reactive, emotion-based mode of thought about how wicked they are and how much trouble they are making for you which treats them as just plain evil, as though they were the "bad guys" of children's cartoons. I'm sorry your wife is frantic and your kids are nervous. If I lived in an area like that, I'd move--surely you can move out of Efrat to some place safer in Israel proper (you did say Efrat was in the West Bank, I think). Why are you staying _there_ in particular? -John Bishop
1388.67	Re: 62 & 63.	WFOV12::AWKAL		`Wed May 04 1994 16:36`	148
	Re: 62 & 63 >Ali, you are beginning to get on my nerves. When you resort to personal >insults - you are in a bad way. I am not trying to insult you, and if you got hurt from my reply I am very sorry. >You lump together PLO, Hamas, and Hizbullah with Jews whose views do not >toe the government line, and whom you label as radical. Good that you put >together PLO and Hamas in one boat - this is exactly what I said in one of >my notes (.40) a month ago. I am not defending the PLO policy or actions but to me it looks like they are serious this time to achieve peace, and I don't think the PLO still have the mentality that they had when they started the movement, and that is why I think they will be a good partner for peace, but if we continue saying they are terrorist and they are this and that, peace will never advance. The whole world wish peace for the Middleeast and the future will show who is honest and who is not about this peace. >And the main headline on yesterday's front page of Yediot Aharonot quoted >C-S General Barak as saying "PLO and Hamas have the same >objective: a Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital". I still think they will respect the peace agreement, and go by it, and if the PLO dosn't that is their big mistake. Probably general Barak concluded that HAMAS and the PLO have the same objectives because of what is happening these days. >You mouth/write sweet platitudes about peace and majority rule etc. >Where do you get your updates on the current situation on the ground from? >Weekly issues of Newsweek which are stale and in any case biased? Or from >CNN newscasts which show you exactly what the reporter and photographer >edited and showed you? I read several magazines ,and you are right I watch CNN and I think most of what I see and read is done by honest unbiased media. >I happen to live on what you call the West Bank, in Efrat, and I can tell you >straight facts from what's happening round about - as well as what the >government-run radio and TV or the newspapers decide not to report or to >playdown. >Have you been under attack, whilst driving, from terrorists throwing rocks and >iron bars as I have? >Have you had your skull fractured from rocks, like two of my neighbours? >Did you hear about the two terrorists at Neve Dekalim who lay in wait for a >young 23-year old mother of two. She closed the front door of her house on the >way to synagogue last Saturday week with her two children, 13 months and 3 >weeks old, and was stabbed brutally in the chest, neck and arms >until the blade of the knives broke? I think that is terrible and things should change for you and the Arabs to the better, these incidents increases tension, and that is why I always stress that a true peace is the solution for all these missery. O.K what do you think should be done to make it better for every body?. You and the Palestinian live in that part of the world and you are the people who got the right to decide what is best for you. >Do you know that the current government coalition is at present 53 out of >120 members of the Knesset? Do you know that three members of the Labour >Alignment were expelled last week for breaking away to contest the Histadrut >Trade Union elections? >No - of course not. You just mouth sweet nothings about peace and decision >of the majority from wherever you are. >Not only is the general population split down the middle over this >whole process - nobody is calling it a" peace" process anymore - but the >government does not even have a majority coalition. It relies on a few Arab >MKs, whose loyalty to the Jewish state and the Zionist ideal is very suspect, >put mildly. All these problems will be solved when the Israeli people feel safe and also the Palestinian should be safe and have a hope for a better future The Israeli leadership accepting and working for peace, I am very confident that they know what they doing and they are working for the welfare of both people, THE STATUS-QUO couldn't go much further. >I think peace will prevail if you like it or not it is not up to you >This is NOT peace. Repeat again after me, this is NOT peace. >This is the weak-kneed attitude of the men currently in power, to the well- >constructed Arab media onslaught and determination. [BTW, you mentioned >South Africa - did you know that 200,000 (yes TWO HUNDRED THOUSAND) people >have been killed in the last couple of months in the fighting in Rwanda - >nah, the media is not interested in that - Jew/Israel bashing is much more fun]. Look at Mr De-Clerk of South Africa inspite of all the presure from the white minority he went ahead with the peace process Could some problem but things will improve when white and balck or Arabs and Israeli understand each other better. >or me, it is for the majority to decide, exactly like what happened in >South Africa. >Well, I guess we Jews, should just pack our bags and move on again, because >4 million Jews are definitely not a majority compared with the hundreds of >millions Arabs round about. Jews, Moslems, and christians existed for hundred of years and they will exist thousands more, Jews got the right to live in that part of the world as much as Arabs, and christians . >I don't think my dialogue with you is going to lead us to any constructive >results. >My friend, I am not trying to convince you of anything. I am trying to let >the people who read these notes, and may be gullibly taken in by what you >and others write, have a different perspective on the situation. I am only trying to ease the tension between the two sides if I can, and I am not trying to convince any body with peace , peace is a standard in every human but, our society turn us to peace loving individuals or violent individuals. Ali- >I'm happy to see that you are finally grouping the "moderate" plo >together with the Hamas and Hizbullah. >I presented opinions backed by facts. I didn't resort to personal >insults. Do you have any valid arguments against my claims or did you >open this discussion only to serve your personal agenda? Sorry again if you felt insulted by me, I never ever like to insult any body, and I don't like any body to insult me, sorry again. >Certainly not with your attitude. Besides, this is an open discussion for >anyone -- you are free to participate or withdraw at anytime. >Hoping for a true peace, What is the peace that you like to see in the Middleeast?.
1388.68	Peace at last.	WFOV12::AWKAL		`Thu May 05 1994 19:59`	139
	Hi The attached is remarks by Mr. Rabin after the signing of the Cairo agreement. Nice words to Arabs and Isrealis, as Mr. Rabin mentioned some Arabs and some Israelis will not like this agreement but time will prove that this is the best thing that was ever done to the two people. Regards, Ali ----------> ================================================================================ Note 197.0 Statements and Comments on the Cairo Agreement No replies SOFBAS::MAYER "Internet: The Buck Starts Here!" 117 lines 4-MAY-1994 16:43 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ===================================================================== Israel Information Service Gopher Information Division Israel Foreign Ministry - Jerusalem Mail all Queries to [email protected] ===================================================================== REMARKS BY PRIME MINISTER YITZHAK RABIN AT SIGNING CEREMONY OF THE GAZA-JERICHO ACCORD CAIRO, MAY 4, 1994 We witnessed, you witnessed, the world witnessed, the tip of the iceberg of the problems that we shall have to overcome in the implementation of even the first phase of the Declaration of Principles -- to overcome 100 years of animosity, suspicion, bloodshed. It's not so simple. There is an opposition on both sides to what we are doing today, and it will require a lot -- a lot on both sides -- to make sure that we will succeed and achieve peaceful coexistence, and in addition to the coexistence, to bring about a permanent solution. Today we signed the 'Gaza-Jericho first' agreement, which is the first phase of implementation. It is a very daring project, and we are committed by my signature today to make sure that it will work, that we will achieve our goals. We will be able to overcome all these problems. You have heard many beautiful speeches. Allow me, after saying what I have said by now, to turn in Hebrew to the people of Israel. (Translated from Hebrew) On a winter's day in 1889, 105 years ago, the blacksmith Avraham Mialovsky was murdered in his clay hut in Wadi Hadin. Avraham Mialovsky was the first victim in the history of the Jewish community in the land of Israel, in modern history, since we returned to the land of our forefathers, after 2,000 years of exile -- the first victim in a bloodstained conflict between us and the Palestinian people. Since Avraham Mialovsky was killed, our grandfathers, our fathers, we, our children and even our grandchildren have known virtually nothing except blood and bereavement, and for 100 years this blood has given us no rest. What did we want? We wanted to return to the land of our forefathers, to the land of the Bible. We wanted a homeland, we wanted a home, we wanted a refuge, we wanted a place where we could place our heads, we wanted to live like every person, like every people -- we wanted to live. The war over the land of our forefathers deprived us of the best of our sons and daughters, it elicited from us great spiritual and physical resources, and channeled all our strength and efforts to directions we did not seek, to directions of pain, and we deeply regret this. Even in our most difficult hours, our hearts contract at the sight of the destruction, at the hatred, at the sight of death. But even in our bitterest moments, we knew that the tears of our bereaved mothers were no different from the tears of other bereaved mothers, that they are salty and painful in every family, that the cries of anguish are the same, even when they are voiced in different languages. We decided to try and put an end to this terrible cycle of pain. We decided to look ahead to a different future. On September 13, 1993, on the lawn of the White House in Washington, we decided to embark on a new course. Tomorrow, we will begin the implementation of the Declaration of Principles. The purpose of the agreement and its implementation, at this stage in Gaza and Jericho, is to achieve a dual goal: To allow the Palestinian authority to conduct the lives of the Palestinians and to maintain public law and order in their towns. Our goal is maintain security for Israelis wherever they may be, especially in the wake of the coming change in Gaza and Jericho. Unless Israelis are guaranteed security and the Palestinians are given new hope, the goals of the agreement will not be achieved. Very much depends on the Palestinains. We are embarking on this new course with great hope, with great desire, and know that it contains wonderful opportunities, but also heavy fears. We are confident that both peoples can live on the same piece of land, each under his own vine and fig-tree, as our prophets foretold, and grant this land -- a land of stones, a land of gravestones -- the taste of milk and honey which it so deserves. I appeal now to the Palestinian people and say: Our Palestinian neighbors. One hundred years of bloodshed implanted in us hostility towards one another. For one hundred years we lay in wait for you, and you lay in wait for us. We killed you, and you killed us. Thousands of our graves, thousands of your graves covering the hills and valleys are painful milestones in your history and ours. Today, you and I stretch out our hands in peace. Today, we are beginning a different reckoning. The people of Israel expect you not to disappoint us. Give them new hope, that we may flourish. It is not easy to forget the past. But let us try to overcome the bad memories and the obstacles in order to light a new, unique, historic horizon -- an opportunity which may never come again for a different life, a life without fear, a life without hatred, a life without the frightened eyes of children, a life without pain, a life in which we shall build a home, plant a vineyard and live to a ripe old age, side by side as neighbors. We all hope that we shall wake up tomorrow morning to a new day, to a new future and a new opportunity for our children. For them, we had to fight. For them, we have to achieve peace. I thank all those who lend a hand and helped us reach this day -- the heads of state, statesmen, the soldiers who fought and the soldiers we hope will not have to fight; and special thanks to our host, to the President of Egypt, President Mubarak, the leader of the great Arab country that set the precedent that peace can be achieved, peace can be maintained, peace can bring peoples together. Allow me to thank the Secretary of State of the United States, a true friend of Israel, and the Foreign Minister of Russia, the representatives of Norway and other that assisted so much. On a spring day in 1994, two weeks ago, Second Lieutenant Shahar Simani, aged 21 of Ashkelon, was killed. His body was found by the roadside near Jerusalem. A thread of blood links the Jewish people from the murder of the blacksmith Avraham Mialovsky 105 years ago to Second Lieutenant Shahar Simani two weeks ago. I pray that Shahar Simani will be the last victim for us all, Israelis and Palestinians. The new hope which we take with us from here is boundless. There is no limit to our goodwill, to our desire to see a historic conciliation between two peoples who have until now lived by the sword in the alleyways of Khan Yunis and the streets of Ramat-Gan, in the houses of Gaza and the plazas of Hadera, in Rafiah and Afula. A new reality is being born today. One hundred years of Palestinian- Israeli coniflict and millions of people who want to live are watching us. May God be with us.
1388.69	Giving up Territories	TAV02::FEINBERG	Don Feinberg	`Mon May 09 1994 13:58`	16
	If anyone is interested: I have a copy of a recently (2 years ago?) declassified report from the US Department of Defence / Joint Chiefs of Staff on their assessment of defensible borders for Israel. No politics are included -- it's purely a military analysis. Their conclusion: Israel would be stupid to give up any of the present territories. (References on request) don feinberg
1388.70	I'd like to see it!	TLE::JBISHOP		`Mon May 09 1994 16:10`	4
	Fascinating! Can you post more details, or send me a copy if it's possible? -John Bishop
1388.71	WSJ article re: Peace...	POWDML::SMCCONNELL	Next year, in Jerusalem!	`Wed May 11 1994 20:30`	85
	(re-entered, hopefully, without typos...any here are mine, s.m.) From the Wall Street Journal, April 11, 1994 AN ARAB POLL: UNPREPARED FOR PEACE, by Hilal Khashan There is good reason to doubt that Arab public opinion is ready for peace with Israel. Survey research I conducted among 1,000 Muslim Lebanese, Syrians and diaspora Palestinians on the eve of the signing of the Sept. 13, 1993, agreement between Israel and the Palestine Liberation Organization suggests that the leaders are very far ahead of the masses when it comes to contemplating peace with Israel. This implies that Arab leaders risk deligitimizing themselves, perhaps dangerously so, if they persist with current policies. To begin with, of the respondents who favored the peace process, not one single person (italics, s.m.) gave a positive justification for peace with Israel. Respondents variously see peace as the only available alternative at the present, or as a chance to recover some territory occupied by Israel since the Six Day War, or as an opportunity to put a halt to "Israeli aggression." But the most popular view sees the peace as an interim measure for Arabs to reorganize themselves and strike at Israel later. In all, more than 90% of those who support peace say they would cease to support it if Israel were weakened in the future. These results force us to conclude that Arabs who support the peace negotiations see them leading to a truce, not to a lasting peace. Also revealing are the alternatives to direct negotiations that Arab respondents offer. Three-quarters of them call for immediate military confrontation against Israel. The remaining one-fourth call for maintaining the present situation of no peace, no war, pending the time when Arabs can attain their objectives. This prompts two comments. When three-quarters of the respondents look forward to war, it hardly augurs well for the cause of true peace. And when Arabs call for military action against Israel, they demonstrate themselves to be out of touch with reality. If Arabs could not destroy Israel during the peak of superpower polarity, they are unlikely to do so in a time of U.S. predominance. From these data, I conclude that Arabs - even those who advocate it - are not ready psychologically for peace. Views of Israel's long-term plans after a peace agreement bear out this conclusion. The respondents worry most that peace will enable Israel to become the Middle East's economic superpower, followed by concerns that it will try to obtain the lion's share of the region's water resources and instigate sectarian conflict. Many Arabs charge Israel with fomenting the Lebanese civil war, compounding the Kurdish question in northern Iraq, and aggravating the rebellion in southern Sudan. They perceive a grand Zionist scheme to create mini-states replacing Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, and Egypt. Such suspicions of Israel should be dying vestiges of the Arab-Israeli conflict's early days; that they remain vibrant indicates intellectual stagnation and points to a failure to understand the complexity and dynamism of politics. The respondents, two-thirds of whom are professionals, have fallen victim to uncritical political evaluations. This study has produced sobering results. The respondents show little understanding of the meaning of peace, much less an appreciation of its possible benefits. Quite the contrary, they see peace as surrender and display attitudes that suggest that the conflict with Israel has yet a long life ahead. The survey findings point to strong anti-Israel sentiments remaining in Arab political culture. The leadership bears considerable responsibility for this state of affairs. Since the early 1920s, it has heavily socialized the populations to suspect Jews, hate Zionists, and then to see the destruction of the state of Israel. And when Arab leaders finally chose to take part in peace talks with Israel, they did not adequately prepare their people for what might ensue. Their "peace by stealth" consists of one step forward, two steps backward. Leaders once exaggerated their tough stance against Israel; now they underestimate the implications of peace. Arabs today are in a state of muted rebellion, feeling abandoned by their leaders and bypassed by modernity and political liberalization. Genuine peace is not improbably, but it demands profound resocialization. Americans can help by promoting mutual interaction, cooperation and understanding so that peace eventually stands on its own. Otherwise, the quiet that prevails in the Levant these days could very well be a calm that precedes the storm. --------------------------------------------- Mr. Khashan is an associate professor of political science at the American University of Beirut. This article derives from a longer study in the inaugural issue of Middle East Quarterly.
1388.72	same depressing prognosis	CUPMK::STEINHART		`Wed May 11 1994 21:54`	5
	This Wall Street Journal article (thanks for transcribing, Steve) is consistent in its message with the Boston Globe magazine article I described in note 1412.8. L