Conference taveng::bagels

>    The first question is about how accurately could it be determined by
>    the Jewish calendar when Passover was celebrated between the years 20
>    and 50 AD? What day of the week were they on? Is it realistically
>    possible to find out about this?
    
    Passover is always celebrated as stated in your bible on the "15th day
    of the first month" and that is the 15th of Nissan.  As for where that
    appears on the Gregorian Calnedar it depends on the year.  The first
    night of Passover can be on any day of the week and was probably on all
    seven days between the years in question.  Since the Gregorian Calnedar
    nor it's inaccurate predecessor the Julian Calnedar did not exist in
    those years, any references into those systems is probably irrelevant. 
    
    Mark

Actually based on the calendar now in use the first night of Passover
can be Monday, Wednesday, Friday, Saturday (first day can therefore
be Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday, Sunday).

First night of Passover is never Sunda, Tuesday, or Thursday

But the calendar wasn't fixed that early.  At that time, the New Moon was
determined by witnesses.

I'd say the answer is that you can figure out what day of the week it was
plus or minus a day.  You just need to do the astronomical calculations.

my comments were meant for the present.

when did we start using the calendar now in use??

    Thank you for your comments so far. What about the rythym of months in
    a year (I'm talking about a year as in the scriptures.) Is there not
    sometimes 12 months in a year and sometimes 13? Is there not a rythym
    to this? And a moon-month, is there a rythym of 28 day months and 27/29
    day months? 
    
    And does anyone know about the calendar being the year 5754. How was
    this number arrived at?
    
    Anyway, they aren't probably such easy questions. I appreciate your
    help. 
    
    By the way, who believes in the year 5754 as being accurate? How
    accurate?
    
    
    Best wishes
    
    Rodger

    From my understanding, the current Hebrew Calendar was compiled by
    Hillel, and has been in use ever since.  The fact that we celebrate
    most holidays for multiple days is because of the uncertainty.
    
    Mark L

    There is a leap year 7 times in 19 years. 
    That's for the extra month. 
    
    Malcolm 

months are on either 29 or 30 days. There are 2 months than can be either
29 or 30 days, the other months are always the same number of days.

re: 5754

there are a number of ways that this number can be arrived at, depends on
the assumptions that are made. There are people who believe that the
world is only that old. Others work with different interpretations of
what a "day" really meant during creation.

yf

    Thanks Y Francus,
    
    re: 5754
    
    Concerning the different interpretations concerning the creation days,
    did this interpretation come AFTER the 1800's (Evolution Theory) or was
    it something doubted even before it?
    
    Rodger

    Hi .
    There are some interpretations about the way the world was created :
    The famos one of them is that Go-d started from nothing and created the
    	present world at exactly 7 days .
    The secound one is that everithing was created on 7 days but days means
    	not 24 hours day but a creation peroid .
    The Third one is that Go-d created the world several times and
    	destroy it until the present shape .(that theory is Aprox from 60 AC)
    	From that Theory, you can find findings that don't belong to these
    	days world (maybee Dinozaurs...)
    Anywais even with Creation theries the Evolution can live for example ,
    	you can find a theory from the 60's (AC) that there is a conection 
    	between the Monkey and human beengs.Another point of view is that
     	we don't know if the creation was like "Poof" or by progression step
    	by step.
    Even if you belive in 7 Days creation it dosn't meen neccesserily that after
    	those days the creation stoped .
    Those Theories are from the last years of the Scound Temple - The days
    	of the Tana-im who wrote the Mishna (One of the famos of them is
    	Rabbi Shimon Bar-Jochay who wrote the "Zohar" boook)
    
    Other theory-(very modern one)is that the extream changes - after the
    	creation - the flud in Noach days ,Metheors,things we don't know about
     	etc. influenced the findings we see today - so we can't exactly
    	measure the exact age of them by Carbon14 .
 
    \Avri

    Hi,
    
    This seems a more appropriate note for my questions. First, please
    forgive me for my statement in 1381.79, "perhaps this was overlooked?"
    I did not mean to insult anyone with that statement. As I thought about
    it, it may have, and I apologize. It is perhaps a matter of different
    interpretation? I do not claim to know much, as the more I know, the
    more I discover I do not know. 8^)
    
    I thank you all for your explanations in 1831. I have learned even more
    from your patient efforts to help me see things in a different light
    than what I'm accustomed. I'm not here to make any enemies, only
    friends. We do share certain beliefs, and the ones we don't shouldn't
    be a reason to allow walls to be built. If you do not share this view,
    I shall resume my read-only status, and remain silent.
    
    My question is, in many faiths, the motivation to share one's beliefs
    differ, from uncaring desires of "quota", to honest,"caring for the
    others well-being", thinking, theirs is the "only right way." In my
    short life, I have had many different faiths knocking at my door,
    desiring to convert me to "their way of thinking." I have never had,
    nor heard of, a Jewish person "evangelizing." The only conversion I've
    heard of was due to an inter-faith marriage. Have I missed something?
    If not, why is this so?
    
    Shalom,
    
    Bob            

I have no idea of the authoritative reason for this, but it is Jewish
tradition to NOT evangelize. I can suggest two possible reasons: first,
the "other" guys do it so _we_ don't. The other reason is that it is
a burden to have to observe the 613 mitzvot (commandments). Why attempt
to inflict that burden on someone who only needs to observe 7 commandments
to be worthy of heaven?

Dave

P.S.

I almost forgot another, probably better, reason. In previous centuries
it was downright dangerous for a Jew to attempt to evangelize. Neither
Christians nor Moslems took kindly to that sort of thing. Once Jews decided
to refrain, "not evangelizing" entered the tradition, from where only an act
of G-d can get it out.

Dave

Jews have had a tradition that goes back long before christianity even
existed that we do not try and convert people.

Hi Dave, 

Thank you for replying. Your answers bring to my mind more questions.

>the "other" guys do it so _we_ don't.

Why not? If Judaism is the only accepted way to eternal life, why would you
desire to keep it to yourselves, and let all others have eternal death?

>a burden to have to observe the 613 mitzvot (commandments). Why attempt
>to inflict that burden on someone who only needs to observe 7 commandments
>to be worthy of heaven?

First, it is my understanding of the Bible there are 10 commandments to observe.
Why do you say only 7? And, since I am motivated by love, and concern for others
and their eternal destiny, even if there were 6,130, it would be hard not to
inflict such a burden, taking the consequences into consideration.

And as far as Christians, we have an even more difficult commandment to observe
than the 10. That is to love others as we believe Jesus loved us. as in laying
down our lives for our brothers. And although I try I fall pitifully short.

I suppose if faced with a scenerio of "the death of one, for the lives of many" 
(Spock, in a Star Trek movie) I would have to be an absolute madman to do such, 
unless I was sure beyond a shadow of a doubt that my sacrifice would produce 
great positive results. Even more so in an "eternal consequences" situation.

In .13, you seem to show fear of persecution or even death of "evangelizing"
due to it being dangerous. Isn't it the highest honour of many "great faiths"
whether right or wrong, to suffer persecution, or die for their G-d, thinking 
they have a far better after-life?

I think it would not take something as dramatic as an act of G-d, perhaps only
as simple as an act of one's own will. 

re .14
    
Where did this tradition originate?
    
Shalom, and I pray G-d's blessings on you both for answering.

Bob
    

    Please let me correct a statement I just made.
    
    >And as far as Christians, we have an even more difficult commandment
    >to observe than the 10. That is to love others as we believe Jesus loved
    >us. as in laying down our lives for our brothers. And although I try I 
    >fall pitifully short.
    
    This, second to Love G-d above all, with all heart, soul, mind, and
    strength. And I have fallen pitifully short here, also. For one who
    has loved, at times, women, cars, and other things more than life
    itself, they indeed are a difficult set of commandments, whether it be
    7, 10, 613, or 630! I appreciate forgiveness greatly!!!
    
    Shalom,
                                                           
    Bob

    
    where did you get this?
    
>>Why not? If Judaism is the only accepted way to eternal life, why would you
>>desire to keep it to yourselves, and let all others have eternal death?

    Do you think that is part of Jewish thought? 
    
    Amy
    

    Amy,
    
    My guess is that Bob is asking why a Jewish person wouldn't seek
    converts from the Nations *IF* Judaism understood itself to be the sole
    way of eternal life.
    
    Bob,
    
    I believe that normative Judaism today teaches that Jews may attain
    righteousness by observing the Jewish Torah (the 613 mitzvot, among
    them, the 10 written by G-d Himself directly onto stone tablets) and
    Gentiles may attain righteousness by observing the 7 commandments of
    what is called the Noachic Covenant (no strangled meat, sexual purity,
    etc.).  Rabbi Schneerson's Messianic announcement (see 1381.0) speaks
    to this, as does the 15th chapter of Acts.
    
    Steve
    
    PS - please feel free to correct any misrepresentations if I've made
    one.
    

Strangled meat?  I think you mean "ever min hachai", eating [part of] a live
animal (e.g. Rocky Mountain oysters).

    As far as Jews are concerned, non-Jews can be righteous without
    following the commandments of the Torah which were given to the
    Jews.
    
    The seven commandments referred to in previous notes are those
    given to Noah.
    
    To simply, perhaps excessively, the Jewish religion does not teach
    that it is the only way to an eternal life.  Certainly not for
    non-Jews.  Converting people does not save them, it gives them more
    responsibilities - and, historically in most parts of the world it
    makes them a minority, with all the risks and discriminations that
    go with it.
    
    Traditionally, non-Jews are discouraged from converting.  If they
    want to convert anyways they are, traditionally welcomed and treated
    as though they had always been Jewish.
    
    				Paul
    

    re: .19
    
    Sorry...you're right.  (I'm not sorry that you're right - you know what
    I mean).
    
    Eating an animal that is still alive/has its lifeblood still in it
    (Gen. 9).

RE: several previous:

Jews number the 10 Commandments differently than Christians. We consider #1
to be (have to paraphrase, can't remember exactly) "I am the L-rd...". This
is not a "commandment", it is simply a statement; which is why we often refer
to them as the 10 "Utterances".

The 613 commandments are all the laws in the Hebrew bible. The number was arrived
at arbitrarily (one commandment for each day of the year, 365, plus one for
each part of the body, 248 as believed way back when...). You have to stretch
to make the number come out right - I believe there is more than one list of 613.

The 7 (as mentioned) are the commandments given to Noah, and therefore to non-Jews.
To tell the truth, I don't see how all 7 are derived from the chapter in Genesis,
but that's my problem.

Jews do NOT believe that ours is the only true religion. Jews do NOT focus on the
afterlife as the "main event" either. Non-Jews "go to heaven" if they follow
the 7 Noahide commandments, Jews if they follow the 613. Take your choice...

I am not so sure about the history of Jewish non-evangelism. My understanding is
that Christianity was attractive to evangelistic Jews because they wouldn't have
to require circumcision for the converts. There is also the business about the
forced conversion of conquered nations that gave us King Herod, the son (grandson?)
of a forced convert.

Regarding the teachings of Jesus: you will find the commandment to "love your
neighbor as yourself" in Leviticus 19 and the commandment to "love G-d with all
your heart and with all your soul" in Deuteronomy 6 (if my memory hasn't failed
me again). These are 2 of the 613. It's just part of the Jewish content of
Jesus' teachings and it's pure Torah.

Dave

    Hi Amy,
    
    I thought that was the basic philosophy of all faiths. I don't know if
    it is part of the Jewish faith, and that's why I asked, as a question.
    I'm painfully ignorant of your ways. In my first note in this
    conference, I stated I have been a believer in G-d since I was very
    young. Many of those years were spent in rebellion, away from any
    faith at all. But it didn't change the fact I knew He was there. I
    was always drawn back from my "backslidden" condition, by a love I felt
    that I could not explain. Many times I have thought to myself, "only
    G-d could give unconditional love." I have not always seen this, though. 
    
    I had "run" from G-d because of Bible readings in my early years. In
    reading about how "terrible" He can be, when provoked to wrath, it
    scared me, very much. I am still shaken when I read of some accounts of
    His anger. Basic decision, I don't want Him angry with me, so I am
    trying to learn how not to anger Him. That life may be good, and worth
    waking up, to face a new day with hope I can learn more. To find the
    way the blessings spoken of in Deuteronomy 28:1-14 can come upon me.
    I think I already know what the curses are like.
    
    Shalom,
    
    Bob                                                          

    Christianity's concept and goal of "eternal life" is not only not
    shared by Judaism, it is not shared by many other human religions.
    
    Ironically,  I think if you asked a Buddhist or a Hindu about this
    concept, their preference would actually be quite the opposite of
    yours, based on such ideals as "stopping the wheel of karma," and
    release from rebirth.  If this is alarming to a Christian, one must
    imagine that the entire weltanschaung is different.  
    
    Before I learned to speak French, I thought that other languages are
    just like English, a sort of one-to-one translation.  I was surprised
    to learn that one can say entirely different things in French, but that
    many English formations are missing.  I was even more enlightened when
    I learned some Hebrew and realized that the basic philosophical
    underpinnings are different.  
    
    Learning about such linguistic differences, one may infer vast gulfs of
    difference in philosophy between Christianity and Judaism.  Judaism, is
    not just a somewhat different form of Christianity, a sort of
    ur-Christianity, but is another animal altogether.  This despite some
    superficial similarities and historical ties.  Apples and oranges, so
    to speak.
    
    If you really want to learn about Judaism, it helps to have a
    completely  open mind.  Don't try to force it into the mold you know. 
    Make comparisons and contrasts after you learn, not before.  To the
    Christian mind, it is no less alien than Buddhism.
    
    Laura

re:.15
>...only accepted way to eternal life, why would you
>desire to keep it to yourselves, and let all others have eternal death?

To continue the points made earlier, it's possible to divide religions
into two broad categories.  Some are "catholic" (dictionary meaning,
applicable to everyone) and some are "national".  You never see a Shinto 
missionary, for instance, trying to convert non-Japanese.  Judaism and 
Shinto, and I think normative (not westernized "Hare Krishna") Hinduism, 
are national religions.  This is from the non-political meaning of "nation", a 
group of people joined by religious and linguistic tradition.  ("Nation-state" 
is the more common modern meaning, confusingly shortened.)

Thus the battle over "messianic Judaism" too.  Our religion makes no
sense outside of our nationality.  It's what the Lord told Jews to believe, 
NOT what he told the rest of the world to believe.  Those who adopt
christianity have broken with the nation.  Atheists generally have not.

I personally feel more religious kinship with Shintoism, shamanism and 
other tribal traditions, however odd, than with any missionary religion, 
because the point is not the beliefs themselves but the fact that religion is 
not to be imposed from without.

Hi,

First, I want to thank you for your patient understanding in being so kind as
to answer my questions. May G-d's blessing be on you for your kindness, and
willingness to share. I shall prayerfully continue to seek knowledge, as it
is an excellent cure for my ignorance. 8^) As far as waiting until I have
learned all, before making comparisons, I shall try, although I see this as
very difficult.

In trying to have an open mind, it is far easier than listening to those ideas
of eastern religions, whose teaching I have been taught to value as "way-off".
In seeking, as what I said before, the "roots" of what I have been taught all
my life, I can be much more open-minded, as I don't see Judaism as alien at
all. 

The reason for this is, my Bible has pages 5 through 800 as the part we all
agree on as the written word of G-d. Then pages 3 through 246 as the part we
don't agree on. So, we agree on the majority. Unlike eastern religions, where
the differences are *GREAT*!

I have been taught the main difference between many eastern religions and my
belief is they think they go to heaven because of what they have done, not by
what G-d has done. That seems to be a major difference between their ways, and
what we believe, where our trust is in G-d, who is ONE, not many, like Vishnu,
Krishna, Brahma, and a host of others.

There are others but due to work constraints, and project deadlines, I can't
get into that now. Many thanks for your assistance in this "seems to take a
lifetime" learning curve!

Shalom,

Bob