Conference taveng::bagels

If you can find a Jewish Calendar for the time period or the Jewish Almanac,
it will list candle lighting for Friday night.  As a good approximation, you
can take that time plus one hour for when the end of Shabbat is.  I would add
a little leeway after that just for surety.

Gav

Isn't it also necessary to add travel time?

FWIW, I have never heard of a Jewish wedding on a Saturday night.  Even in the
winter, the logistics are a problem.  Why not Sunday during the day?

I have.  I was to one in New Bedford that started at 9PM (reception was still
in full swing at midnight when we left).  If people are planning to go to
services at the shul during Shabbat, then they shouldn't have any problem
getting to the wedding shortly after havdalah.  If are expecting out of town
guests who are Shomer Shabbat you will certainly want to make sure they can get
lodging within walking distance of the shul (or some other shul of their choice
and then have sufficient delay after havdalah).

Obviously there are those who don't care, won't be at services and will drive
during Shabbat to get there.  If they are from out of town they would probably
also drive during Shabbat to get into town the day before anyway  8^{).

Gav

    My understanding is that Shabbat and holidays are defined to be out
    when you can see 3 stars in the sky.  I don't remember where I picked
    up this piece of information, but I've always used it as a guideline. 
    Of course, this causes problems if it's cloudy and you can't see the
    sky.
    
    		Danny

A kosher caterer would have problems cooking or heating food for a Saturday
night wedding.

I've been to weddings on Saturday night as well. In the winter when
Shabbat ends at 5:30 or even earlier it is not that big a deal for
a reception to start at 9PM or so. A bit late but not that bad 
considering that folks are generally off on Sunday.

    I've also been to a Saturday night wedding.  My own.  In January.  Of
    course, the only people at the wedding other than bride and groom were
    my immediate family, one other family that lived around the corner, and
    the Rabbi.  Caterers were not an issue.  :-)
    
    Sid

    I remember going to one Saturday-night wedding, back when our
    congregation met in an old house (before we built the schul).  It was
    in the late winter.  It's normally a problem, at least amongst more
    observant people, because of the temptation to begin the wedding
    preparations during the Shabbat.  A good approximation for when
    havdalah is would be an hour after you lit the shabbas candles (which
    you can look up in a Jewish calendar for your area).  Can you wait
    until the rabbi returns from vacation before making your decision?
    
    /Charlotte

    Hello,
    
    Mazel tov on the news! 
    
    When I married in Israel the Rabbi explained that it was not possible
    to get married at sunset This is because the marriage is a legal contract 
    so there must be no doubt on which date it took place. 
    
    In practical terms this is the difference between when Shabbath comes 
    in and when it goes out  (the 25th hour). These times are easily found 
    in a Jewish calendar.  
    
    Malcolm 

    I don't see any problem with a Jewish wedding on a Saturday night
    between, say, late October and mid-February.  Winter solstice is around
    December 25. 
    
    My calendar shows candle-lighting time of 4:23 for October 30, 1992 in
    Boston.  If you scheduled a ceremony at 7 p.m., that leaves ample
    leeway from sunset.   Isn't havdalah about an hour after
    candle-lighting time?  That would make havdalah at 5:23, leaving about
    100 minutes before the ceremony, enough time for people to arrive as a
    rule. Now, if you're in Miami, the sunset is so much later, this might
    prove a problem.
    
    Of course, the individual situation will vary.
    
    Laura

    Although this is a marriage between two Jews, this will be a reform
    ceremony without kosher food (a separate fish dish will be provided for
    those guests who are kosher). We are having a reception for only 100
    guests at a small country club. My options are to have a Sunday wedding
    starting AFTER 4 PM (their dictate) or waiting until the fall and
    having a Saturday night wedding (yes, there are such things). 
    
    My concerns: having a Sunday night wedding is not fair to my guests who
    have to get up early the next day (the guests live within the immediate
    area). On the other hand, it would move my wedding month from June to
    late Sept or October. Does anyone have a calendar for next year to
    check the dates of Sept 17, 24 or Oct 1? is there a rabbi in the house?
    
    I am realizing that this is more than just waiting for the sun to
    set... and perhaps I should go back to a Sunday afternoon wedding!
    
    Thanks for all your input!
    
    C

>================================================================================
>Note 1348.5                     When is sundown?                          5 of 5
>SOFBAS::MAYER "Reality is a matter of perception"     7 lines  20-JUL-1993 03:49
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>                                  -< 3 stars >-
>
>    My understanding is that Shabbat and holidays are defined to be out
>    when you can see 3 stars in the sky.  I don't remember where I picked
>    up this piece of information, but I've always used it as a guideline. 
>    Of course, this causes problems if it's cloudy and you can't see the
>    sky.
>    
>                Danny

Yes,  I have heard this also.  I seem to remember being told this as a very 
young child when I used to go to Sunday school.  I agree with a previous note
that logistically it is difficult to have a Saturday night wedding if 
you're Jewish and I have never been to one myself nor heard of anyone 
organising them.

My wedding was Sunday 11am and it was a wonderful day.  Although still 
tired we both found that it was nice to have a few hours of daylight for 
more photos and fun with close friends and family.  It was also less 
stressful for us to travel the next day with having had a normal nights 
sleep.

We also found that the guests left on a high.  The whole event finished on 
a high.  No-one was worried about having a late night and having to get up 
for work the next morning or anything like that.  It was very relaxed and 
EVERYONE enjoyed it.  Late Sunday nights for me are not good and most 
people I have spoken to on the topic agree.

Hope everything works out for you either way

Regards

Steve Bloom
DECdirect
Sydney, Australia
SNOV29::bloom   

re .12:

>    ceremony without kosher food (a separate fish dish will be provided for
>    those guests who are kosher).

If they're serious about kashrus, they won't eat fish cooked and served
in non-kosher dishes.

>                          Does anyone have a calendar for next year to
>    check the dates of Sept 17, 24 or Oct 1? 

I believe Sept 24 is a problem because it's Chol Hamoed Sukkot, and I don't
think you can get married during Chol Hamoed.

All three dates are before the clocks change, so it will be fairly late.
You can use similar dates from any year's calendar to get the approximate time
that Shabbat ends -- just make sure it's the correct location (which I don't
think you mentioned).

In the Boston area:

Candle lighting in 1992 for September 18, 25, October 2
was 6:31, 6:19, 6:07 so Shabbat was over at about 7:31,7:19,7:07.

In 1993 you will run into the following issues with the dates you mentioned:

Sept 17 is the shabbat after Rosh Hashana. (Rosh Hashana is Sept. 15,16)

Yom Kippur is September 24 so you probably would not
want to schedule a wedding for the evening right after
Yom Kippur ends. I am not sure anyone will want that.

October 1 is Chol Hamoed Sukkot and you cannot do weddings
on Chol Hamoed.

Sept 17 would be your only real option.

I have been to many weddings SUnday afternoon/evening and
never had a problem with needing to go to work on Monday.
5PM wedding is over by 10-11, not all that late.

    Shabbat lasts 24 hours plus one twelveth (1/12) of light time of the
    day, i.e., approximately 24 hrs 50 min in winter, 25 hrs 15 min in 
    summer.
    
    Leo

    My wife and I were married on a sunday @7:00 PM.  We got around the
    travel problem of guests and work issues by having the ceremony on July
    4th weekend.  Monday was the 4th so nobody had to rush home.
    
    I went to my cousin's wedding on saturday night during early spring and
    the ceremony started after 9:30 and the reception went on until 3:00.  
    
    Mark :>

    You are going to have to talk with the Rabbi if you are thinking
    about the Saturday between Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur.  There
    may be severe logistical problems, or the Rabbi may not be able
    to perform a wedding that weekend.
    
    				Paul

There seems to a machlokes as to whether you're talking about 1993 or 1994.
I assumed 1994, others assumed 1993.

Two relatives had Saturday Night weddings this year.

One was in March, during Standard Time.  It was on the late
side (something after 8PM) but workable.  The other was in
May, during Daylight Savings Time.  I didn't attend... but
I hear it started somewhere around or after 9PM, and since
it was a big production it ran VERY late.  BTW both were i
n the New York area where they tend to stay up later than in
Boston!

My recollection, which may be way off, is that candle lighting
time is posted as 18 minutes before nominal sundown.
   fred

> BTW both were in the New York area where they tend to stay up later than in 
> Boston!

talk about understatement.

                Just a hypothetical question... What if the wedding is held in
        Alaska on or about December 21 when the sun does not rise?

When above the Arctic Circle you go by the schedule of the nearest city that
DOES have sunrise/sunset. In a spaceship I suppose you would go by the schedule
of your city of departure. The Mars and Moon colonies will have some "interesting"
halachic questions to answer.

Dave