Conference taveng::bagels

I also wonder about Aviv (Abib).

I recall that the Pachal sacrifice occured on the day _before_ Passover.
We do not observe this mitzvah today because it must be performed in
the Temple. Thus, the 15th of Nissan (the full moon) IS the first day of
Passover and is a day of rest (two days in the Galut).

I also recall that the starting day for the counting of the omer is the
2nd day of Passover. Originally there was some debate on which day is intended
to be day #1. I think the Shabbat that fell within Passover week was the
other candidate for day #1 (day #0?). I don't know why we settled on the
final choice.

Dave

The names currently used for the months of the Jewish calendar are much
later than the Torah.  I believe they're actually Babylonian names.  The
Torah generally just uses the number of the month.

As Dave points out, the Pesach sacrifice was actually brought during the
day on the 14th.  It wasn't eaten until the evening (i.e. the 15th) at
the Seder.

The question of when to start counting the Omer was a point of contention
between the Perushim (Pharisees) and Tzedukim (Sadducees).  The Sadducees
wanted to count from the Sabbath after the first day of Passover.

    Thanks for the input so far...
    
    Here's where I'm bogged down:
    
    On the 10th of Nisan, a yearling lamb is to be selected from the flock,
    inspected for 4 days, and at twilight on the 14th of Nisan, is to be
    slaughtered, it is the L-rd's passover.
    
    Where the reckoning of a "day" is from sundown to sundown, I am
    assuming that "twilight Nisan 14" is (for sake of argument) 6:00 p.m.
    (or sundown) April 5 (this year).  The 14th of Nisan would start
    sundown April 5 and last to sundown April 6 (when the 15th of Nisan
    starts).
    
    So the 14th of Nisan (sundown 4/5 - sundown 4-6) is not, according to
    Torah, a Shabbat - though it is "the L-rd's passover", a holy day.
    
    Where the 15th of Nisan (day one of Matzah) *is*, according to Torah, a
    Shabbat, my question is whether the 14th would be considered a
    "preparation day" for the Shabbat of 15 Nisan (in addition to its being
    a holy day, though not itself a Shabbat).
    
    In a practical manner, I suppose the seder would be eaten at twilight
    Nisan 14 (after sundown April 5) and the following morning (which is
    still Nisan 14 but is also April 6) would be a time for preparation for the
    Shabbat of 15 Nisan...Much like Friday morning (April 9/Nisan 17) would
    be "preparation" for the weekly Shabbat (sundown Friday April 9,
    twilight Shabbat Nisan 18).
    
    I hope I've explained the question properly.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Steve

This is off the top of my head -- I have no source books here at work,
and unfortunately I haven't had time to begin reading up in preparation
for the Seder.  It's been a while since I learned the tractate of the
Talmud that deals with this (Pesachim), and that was not in great depth
(Daf Yomi).

The Pesach was not slaughtered at twilight.  It was slaughtered in one of
three shifts in the morning and early afternoon.  The 14th is not a "Sabbath"
in the sense that creative work is forbidden.  There is (at least) a strong
custom not to do work in the afternoon unless that work is in preparation
for the holiday.

The Pesach had to be consumed after dark but (before midnight? all night?
I forget which.).  The entire animal (other than the parts that were burnt
on the altar) had to be consumed, and no bones were to be broken (obviously
the bones weren't consumed).  Only those who had prearranged to share the
animal were allowed to eat it.  They couldn't leave the room with any of it.
BTW, goats as well as lambs were allowed.

    Gerald,
    
    Thanks again.   Maybe connecting Exodus 12 with Leviticus 23 would help
    me get at the answer better.
    
    Here's a couple snippets from Exodus 12:
    
    vv2-5  on Nisan 10, take a lamb for your household, if household too small,
    share with a neighbor (in accordance with what each person will eat). 
    yearling male without defect, can be from sheep or goats.
    
    v 6  "Take care of them until the fourteenth day of the month, when all
    the people of the community of Israel must slaughter the lamb at
    *twilight*."
    
    	(in practice during Temple times, I understand that your
    explanation about the three shifts of slaughtering is correct)
    
    v 7  apply the lamb's blood
    
    vv 8 - 10  that same night (Nisan 14) eat it rosted with bitter herbs and
    matzah not raw or boiled, but roasted, all of it, leave none til
    morning and if any is left over, that must be burned.
    
    v 11 - eat is in haste it is the L-rd's passover
    
    v 14 - commemorate eternally as a festival to the L-rd
    
    (now here's where it gets tricky ;-)
    
    v 15 "For seven days you are to eat bread made without yeast.  On the
    first day" (is "first" Nisan 14 or 15?  I think 15 based on Lev. 23,
    but that's not clear until Ex 12:18) "remove the yeast from your houses
    for whoever eats anything with yeast in it from the first day through
    the seventh must be cut off from Israel."
    
    It seems the reference to day 1-7 is to Unleavened Bread, which
    according to Lev. 23 starts on 15 Nisan.
    
    v 16 calls days 1 and 7 of Unleavened Bread Shabbats and says, "Do no
    work at all on these days, expect to prepare food for everyone to eat -
    that is all you may do."
    
    Now - v 18 says:
    
    "In the first month" (Nisan/Aviv/Abib) "you are to eat breat made
    without yeast, from the EVENING of the fourteenth day until the EVENING
    of the twenty-first day."
    
    You see my question?
    
    In Exodus 12:18, the EVENING of the 14th DAY would suggest to me (if
    you're following along in an English calendar) He is talking about the
    point at which the sun begins to come down closing the 14th day of
    Nisan (which is April 6 this year) and from that point (just prior to
    the start of Nisan 15 which starts sundown April 6) and for 7 days
    forward, no leaven.  The 7th day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread begins
    then on sundown April 12 (Nisan 21) and ends sundown April 13 (just
    prior to Nisan 22) - making Nisan 21 a Shabbat.
    
    Perhaps the Hebrew text is clearer than the English.
    
    It would be fun to have a Hebrew/English Talmud for PC... ;-)
    
    Steve

After sundown on April 5th, the Hebrew date is Nissan 15. On Monday, the last
meal with leaven is supposed to be breakfast. Lunch should be with neither
leaven nor matzah. If you follow that rule, then you eat no leaven from the
afternoon of Nissan 14 to the end of Nissan 21 (Nissan 22 outside Israel).

I found the passages you quote to be vague to me too. The point of confusion
is between "evening" and "night". I guess "evening" comes just before sundown
and belongs to the previous "day". However this seems to contradict Genesis 1
where it says "... there was evening and morning, day 1...". I agree, the
difficulty may be only in the translation; I wish I knew too.

There is also a period of uncertainty between days. A holiday begins at sundown
while there is still light in the sky but ends when three (two?) stars are
visible the final evening.

Dave

re .5:

That's a terrible translation you've got there, Steve.  Translating "chametz"
as "yeast" in unforgivable.  "Chametz" is the result of letting any of
the five species of grain (wheat, barley, oats, rye, spelt) contact a
liquid for more than 18 minutes.  Kosher-for-Passover wine yeast is
commercially available.

To attempt to answer your questions...

Rashi and the Ramban (Nachmanides) explain Ex. 12:6 this way:  The term
that your translation calls "twilight" is "bain ha-'arbayim."  The literal
meaning is something like "between the evenings."  Although they differ
on how they derive their meaning, both Rashi and Ramban would translate it
as "afternoon."

Rashi on v.14 answers your question about which is the first day.  The original
pesach was eaten the night of the 15th (i.e. the night after the day of the
14th.)  The Jews left Egypt the next day (see Num. 33:3).  Ex. 13:3 says
"Remember the day you went out..."  We remember it as a Sabbath.  Therefore
we don't do creative work (other than that necessary for eating) on the 15th
and the 21st.

BTW, commentaries on the Torah by Rashi and the Ramban are available in
English.  Obviously, something is lost in the translation but IMO not
nearly as much as is lost in translations of the Talmud.  Self-study of
the Talmud doesn't really work, even in the original.

    Gerald,
    
    Thanks.  In a very old version of the Torah & Haftorah that I have (no
    date given, just the name of the publisher, Hebrew Publishing Company
    New York), the word is "leaven".  I have Aryeh Kaplan's translation but
    not handy at the moment.  I think he uses "chametz" but I'm not sure,
    I'll have to look it up.  Not sure calling "chametz" "yeast" is an
    unforgivable transgression ;-) but your point is noted...
    
    As for sudying Talmud, Jacob Neusner's book "Invitation to the Talmud"
    suggests the same - namely that Talmud isn't so much for reading alone,
    but it's meant to be argued between a number of people.
    
    AT any rate, thanks alot for all your helpful insights!
    
    Shalom,
    
    Steve

FWIW, that Chumash from Hebrew Publishing is probably Harkavy's translation
(assuming it's about 8" X 5" with a black cover).

Given the title of the main topic, I thought I'd hang this question here.

Is egg matzah permitted after the first two days of Passover? Since there
is no obligation to eat matzah on the remaining days, what is the problem?

Dave

    Usual rules: if it is the custom in your family to eat egg matzohs, you
    can eat them (though I believe they are not proper for use in the seder
    since they are not "poor bread" made from only flour and water). 
    Otherwise you can't, unless you are sick.  I just finished eating one
    myself.  On the other hand, my mother-in-law doesn't keep them in the
    house anymore, since Paul's sister married someone whose family does
    not eat them, and they are speding the whole holiday at her home; my
    little nieces and nephews will not get egg matzohs since "Abba" does
    not eat them.
    
    I eat whole wheat matzohs too (the pesachdig ones), which many people
    do not eat because they are usually baked with apple juice (or cider)
    instead of water.  Paul won't eat those, but it is, I think, a matter
    of his not liking whole wheat rather than feeling that they are not proper.
    
    /Charlotte 
    
    PS - You weren't in your cube when I came around with the "confection of
    the season" earlier (the famous nut balls!) but I'll go your way first
    next time (assuming there are any left...).
                                         

    re -1, please clarify for me:
    
    "if it is the custom in your family to eat egg matzohs, you can eat
    them (I agree that I don't think you are supposed to use them in the
    seder, although a book I just finished said that it was CUSTOM to eat
    the plain flour and water and didn't mention a mandate at the seder)
    Otherwise you can't, unless you are sick."
    
    Why would the rules be different depending on what your family did? 
    Since I consider my "family" to be my husband and I (as opposed to my
    family of origin) I don't know why we can't begin and adhere to our own
    traditions.  Is there something about eating egg matzahs which is
    forbidden unless you get some sort of "grandfather clause" leniency???
    
    My family or origin doesn't have any Passover traditions, so this is
    particularly important to me because I want to do things properly, yet
    avoid being pedantic...
    
    Thanks for the clarification.  
    
    Sylvia (who's tired of egg/wheat and regular matzah at this point...)

    For Passover, MATZO is defined as wheat and water kneeded and baked
    within 18 minutes.
    
    Since Egg "Matzo" is made of wheat, apple juice, and eggs they are NOT
    considered "MATZO" which can be used for the "official" matzos at the
    seder.  If one is sick, elderly, or a child and cannot eat regular
    matzo at the seder, one is allowed to use matzo dipped in water or
    ground up matzo or egg matzo (check with your local Rabbi).
    
    It is only a REQUIREMENT to eat matzo AT THE SEDER.
    
    ___Avi

RE: .13

That's fine. Now how about the intermediate days. Should I refrain from eating
egg matzah on days 3-8 of Passover?

Dave

    The Streit's Egg Matzos box has the following written on it:
    	Egg Matzos may be eaten only by the infirm, aged or
    	children according to the Shulchan Aruch.
    
    The Horowitz Margareten Egg Matzohs box (note that there are almost
    as many spellings of "Matza" as there are of C/Han/nuk/ka/h) has the
    following written on it:
    	According to Ashkenazic practice, all egg matzoh may be 
    	eaten only by the young, infirm or aged. If you are of
    	Sephardic ancestry, consult your Rabbi.
    
    So...CYLR...Consult your local Rabbi.
    
    BTW..The only time one can find egg matzahs in the store is around
    Pesach...so we stock up...it's great for Matzah Brie!!!
    
    ___Av