Conference taveng::bagels

    "Pamyat" means "Memory" or "Memorial", I belive, and is the name of
    an organization in Russia.  I thought it was an anti-Stalinist group
    dedicated to remembering those who died in the famines, labor camps
    and prisons during that era.  But I could be wrong--my Russian
    dictionary is at home.  And the character of the movement could have
    changed.
    
    There are some pretty nasty Russian nationalist groups--National
    Geographic had a short photo essay on one, and the Economist magazine
    covers them in its articles on Russia.  So far they're fringe groups,
    but there are millions of unhappy Russians for whom Communism has
    been discredited and for whom Capitalism is rapidly becoming
    discredited, as they think it is what they have now.
    
    		-John Bishop

    Pamyat is hypernationalist organization.  I'd say their parallel are
    the neo-Nazis in Germany but these folks are, from what I;ve gathered,
    more para-millitary.
    
    Daniel

    > "Pamyat" means "Memory" or "Memorial", I belive, and is the name of
    > an organization in Russia.  I thought it was an anti-Stalinist group
    > dedicated to remembering those who died in the famines, labor camps
    > and prisons during that era.  But I could be wrong--my Russian
    > dictionary is at home.  And the character of the movement could have
    > changed.
    
    John, you've been confused by the enemy! :-)
    
    "Pamjat'" is indeed "Memory", an ultra-nationalist group.
    
    "Memorial" is a group dedicated to remembering those who perished.
    
    The groups' intersection is, most probably, empty.
    
    Alex

    Steve,
    
    Pamyat is an ultra-nationalist organization that predates the fall of
    the Soviet Union.  One of their basic tennants is virulent and violent
    Anti-semitism (although I do not know if this is part of their
    charter).  I don't know how many of your families are from the Russian
    sphere of influence, but my father told me stories that he had heard
    from his grandfathers about the pogroms that were prevelant in their
    cities and villages in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. 
    Unfortunately, Anti-semitism is deeply rooted in Russian culture and
    predates the arrival of christianity in Russia 1000 years ago.  As
    awful as Soviet Jews were treated under various communist regimes, it
    was better than before and after.
    
    Mark

    Thanks, Mark.  I remember having some off-line discussions with Jem
    (Yehoshua) Steinberg a couple years ago on Russia and Pamyat. 
    Frightening stuff.
    
    Interestingly enough as we're nearing Pesah (and Jem and I talked about
    this as well), Jeremiah said:
    
    "However, the days are coming," declares the L-rd, "when men will no
    longer say, 'As surely as the L-rd lives, who brought the Israelites up
    out of the land of Egypt,' but they will say, 'As surely as the L-rd
    lives who brought the Israelites up out of the land of the NORTH and
    out of all the countries where he had banished them.'  For I will
    restore them to the land I gave their forefathers."  Jer. 16:14,15
    
    Moscow is of course due north of Israel.
    
    It seems like the door to Russian aliyah has been wide open and Jews
    have been "fished" out of the north (and other countries too) as
    Jeremiah later talks about in that same chapter.
    
    I'm wondering if the current situation in Russia, the political
    struggles and rumors of Pamyat's increased terrorism against Jews is
    bringing a close to the open door of aliyah?
    
    Steve

>    Unfortunately, Anti-semitism is deeply rooted in Russian culture and
>    predates the arrival of christianity in Russia 1000 years ago.

Were there any Jews in Russia before Christianity?  Of course, you have to
have Jews to be anti-Semitic (judging from the popularity of anti-Semitic
books in Japan).

RE Note 1319.5
    
    >    -< Russia is histrically Ant-Semitic >-
    
    Here I go again -- let us try to refrain from such generalisations.

    > Pamyat is an ultra-nationalist organization that predates the fall of
    > the Soviet Union.  One of their basic tennants is virulent and violent
    > Anti-semitism (although I do not know if this is part of their charter).
    
    This is correct.
    
    >  I don't know how many of your families are from the Russian
    > sphere of influence, but my father told me stories that he had heard
    > from his grandfathers about the pogroms that were prevelant in their
    > cities and villages in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. 
    
    True, but I would not go as far as saying that pogroms were "prevalent".
    
    > Unfortunately, Anti-semitism is deeply rooted in Russian culture and
    > predates the arrival of christianity in Russia 1000 years ago.
    
    Neither is anti-semitism "deeply rooted" in Russian culture nor does it 
    predate Christianity. I'll only state here that Duke Wolodymer, when 
    searching for the state religion, serious considered Judaism and Islam 
    along with Christianity in the Xth century -- hardly evidence of 
    pre-Christian anti-semitism. And yes, there were then Jews in, for 
    example, Kiev where on of the splendid city gates was called the
    Jewish gate and without any negative connotations...
    
    It is of course true that some Russian Imperial policies were clearly
    anti-semitic. However the ruling classes (and intellectuals) were not 
    unanimously supportive of these policies.
    
    > As awful as Soviet Jews were treated under various communist regimes,
    > it was better than before and after.
             ^^^^^^
    This is highly arguable, to say the least. For example, Imperial Russia 
    had college quotas for Jews that ranged from 3% (Moscow and St Pertesburg)
    to 6% elsewhere. If Moscow U. had 1% Jewish students under Brezhnev,
    I'd be surprised.
    
    What also distinguishes between the Imperial and Soviet Russia is that
    Imperial policies were in many instances overtly anti-Judaic, while 
    Soviet policies were covertly anti-semitic. That is, Imperial laws
    openly discriminated against observant Jews while converts were in
    many cases exempt from discrimination. The Soviet anti-semitism was
    covert. It was never documented and anti-semites could discriminate
    covertly any time they chose to. At least under the Czars the Jews
    knew which (legal or geographical) lines they could not cross.
    
    I am not arguing that there was no anti-semitism under the Czars,
    only that the Soviet anti-semitism was worse, with the exception of
    the pogroms that were tolerated in some cases by the Czarist authorities.
    For example, there were no pogroms in St. Petersburg, where also the
    largest and prosperous Synagogue existed despite the Pale. The Soviets 
    had their Gulags that (by some estimates) exterminated hundreds of 
    thousands of Jews. The Soviet system also managed to essentially
    destroy Judaism and Jewish culture in Russia. I do not need to tell
    you that Judaism suffered no such fate under the Czars.
    
    In Imperial Russia, with all its official anti-semitism, millions of
    Jews knew what Judaism was. They could learn and speak Hebrew and
    Yiddish and they could worship in synagogues. You all know what a sorry
    lot are the Soviet Jews in these regards. Stripped of the national
    dignity, atheist or apostate, more ignorant of their own language and
    culture than any other ethnic group of xUSSR, they were made so by the
    system, the system that also ridiculed and even persecuted these people
    for "rootless cosmopolitanism".
    
    "Better"... not!
    
    Alex

    re .2, .3
    
    Thanks for clearing up the "Memory"/"Memorial" confusion.
    
    Spasibo, ya ochin rad to znat' (rusty Russian attempt at
    "Thanks, I'm glad to know that").
    
    		-John

    
   re: .8
   >For example, there were no pogroms in St. Petersburg, where also the
   >largest and prosperous Synagogue existed despite the Pale.
    
    Would you please remind me of what the Pale is.  I learned this stuff a
    long time ago and have forgotten.
    
    thanks, Steve
    
    

    Jews were restricted to certain areas, called "The Pale of Settlement",
    if I've remembered correctly.
    
    		-John Bishop

    
    any particular reason for the name "Pale"?  I don't get it.
    
    /sl
    

    I don't know the Russian, but in English "pale" has a meaning of a
    fence made of vertical sticks (palings), as well as its more common
    "light color" meaning.  There was also a "Pale" around Dublin in the
    1000's within which no Irish could live.  So if it's a translation
    rather than a transliteration, "Pale" was picked to fit previous use.
    "Beyond the Pale" refers to that Irish pale, which originally refered
    to a stockade, i.e. a literal pale.
    
    But now you're at the limit of my knowledge on this topic.
    
    		-John Bishop

    Pamyat and antisemitism are also discussed in note 112
    of the USSR  (JENEVR::USSR)  notesfile.
    

    The Russian term is "cherta osedlosti", which roughly means the 
    "line of settlement" or, more conventionally, the "pale of settlement".
    
    I do not remeber when exactly the pale was formally established, but it 
    existed roughly since the late 18th century, i.e., since the partition 
    of Poland. The pale generally corresponds to the Russian-Polish boundary 
    circa 1650. I.e., apporximately the boundary between the contemprary 
    Russia and Lithuania, Belarus' and Ukraine.
    
    Jews were generally not allowed to resettle in the areas where they have 
    not already resided during the existence of Polish-Lithuanian Republic.
    There existed laws that regulated Jewish migration beyond the pale,
    e.g., for business reasons. 
    
    The Jews that already lived beyond the pale continued to live there,
    but there were legal restrictions on what they could do or own.
    For example, in Moscow and St. Petersburg, university enrollments
    were limited to 3%. Land could not be owned outside the pale.
    
    During the 19th century the pale laws kept oscillating between
    being more restrictive and more liberal depending on the whims of
    the then current cabinet of ministers. For example, in circa 1890
    10,000 recently legally settled Jews were required to leave Moscow.
    There were numerous other anti-semitic restrictions within and
    without the pale. Yet there were prominent members of the Russian 
    Imperial government that opposed the discrimination against the Jews, 
    e.g., Sergei Vitte early in the 20th century. There were more
    numerous others who blamed all Jews for the revolutionary activities
    of some Jews circa 1890-1917.
    
    As time showed, the apostate Jewish revolutionaries (along with the more 
    numerous non-Jewish revolutionaries of course) did as much or more harm 
    to the Jews as they did to Russia itself, Ukraine, etc. For example, 
    Kaganovich took as much pleasure in destroying Ukrainian culture as he 
    did in destroying Jewish culture in post-WWII USSR.
    
    As dismal as Russian Imperial record is, it was the Soviets who committed
    a Jewish cultural genocide and were on their way of committing a Jewish
    intellectual genocide in USSR.
    
    Many Jews originally supported the Russian revolution because of its
    promise to end discrimination and to establish equality. Clearly, some
    positive changes were made in the 1920's, but in the long run these 
    promises were not worth the paper they were written on.
    
    There are many Jews in the world whose ancestors fled from the czarist
    Russia and the anti-czarist legacy is rightly strong. But it is safe to
    admit now that Bolshevism was by far a greater devil than the Czar. 
    
    Alex

re:.15
I find it interesting that conditions for Jews in Russia/USSR
improved during the 1920s but declined afterwards.  This seems
to correspond to the Lenin-Stalin transition.

Stalin's chief rival, Trotsky (Lev Bronstein), was a Jew.  Stalin's
flavor of Bolshevism may have been influenced by his own prejudices
and that rivalry.

Had Trotsky succeeded Lenin, I wonder how things would have changed.

> I find it interesting that conditions for Jews in Russia/USSR
> improved during the 1920s but declined afterwards.  This seems
> to correspond to the Lenin-Stalin transition.
    
    Although Lenin died in 1924, he was a relatively passive figure since
    his stroke in 1921 or 22. During the Civil war 1919-21, the condition
    of the entire population was drastically worsened. All large and
    prosperous Jewish communities, e.g., in Odessa, suffered also because
    of the expropriation of the valuables and property by the Bolsheviks.
    
    The improvement after the Civil war was due to (1) the abolition of 
    the Pale and the legal disabilities and (2) the advent of the New
    Economic Policy (NEP) that allowed entrepreneurship.
    
    Jewish enrollment in universities increased drastically from 3%-10%
    in 1913 to 10%-20% in the 20's. Many Jewish merchants were also able
    re-gain during NEP part of the wealth that was lost. Jews also entered
    government service in significant numbers. Jewish cultural development
    also gained grounds.
    
    These imporvement were short lived. NEP was a temporary policy -- this
    was supported by essentially all Bolsheviks (Lenin, Trotsky, etc.) NEP
    was used to regain economic strength but by late 20s, NEPmen were taxed
    out of business or, worse, prosecuted as "exploiters".
    
    The Bolsheviks were also unanimously atheist. The persecution of all
    religion began even during the Civil war. Here the situation of Jews,
    after a brief period of being left alone, worsened to the level that
    was not even thought of under the czars. Synagogues were being closed,
    Jewish schools forbidden, etc. These condition never turned for the
    better under the Soviets. By the 60s, the Jewish who dared to learn
    Hebrew were prosecuted for "anti-Soviet propaganda"...
    
    In the area of culture Jews, along with other nationalities, enjoyed
    a brief period of cultural autonomy. But Bolsheviks were also
    unanimously centralist and even the cultural autonomy was seen as
    a threat. By the end of the 20s, the Jewish-oriented activities
    were under assault. Publishing curtailed, theaters closed,
    intellectuals persecuted ...
    
    Much is known about the 30s, so I am not going to be verbose here --
    Jews suffered not less than the non-Jews. Probably more. Because of
    the large percent of Jews in the party leadership and government.
    
    Skipping the WWII, late 40s and early 50s saw Jewish persecution in
    the form of the fight against "rootless cosmopolitans". By 1953 just
    being a Jew was a scary proposition. Stalin's death largely eliminated 
    the threat of physical danger for the Jews, but government sponsored
    anti-semitism continued.
    
    It is interesting that during the early years of Bolshevism some
    idealism found its way into the laws, for example, anti-semitic
    insults were subject to prosecution. Although the Soviet anti-semitism
    was never written into the law, the fact that the laws against
    anti-semitism disappeared served as a message to anti-semites.
    
    The quotas in higher education were never on the books, but since the
    30s, Jewish enrollment was declining to the point where by 1970s the
    top universities had less than 1% of Jews (cf. 3% in 1913). The
    relatively large percent of Jews among Soviet scientists is due to the
    times when Jews had better access to higher education in 20s, 30s or
    even before the revolution.
    
    Czarist laws encouraged Jewish assimilation (converted Jews were not
    subject to most of the restrictions). Soviet Union accomplished almost
    complete assimilation of the Jews. Among all xSoviet ethnic groups,
    Jews have the largest % of Russian speakers and the least % of native
    language speakers (Hebrew or Yiddish). Most Soviet Jews have no idea
    what Judaism is. 99% of Synagogues were closed. There was no Jewish 
    education in USSR (perhaps a couple of token schools). The expression
    "lo yodea tzura't aleph"  can be literally applied to xSoviet Jews.

>Stalin's chief rival, Trotsky (Lev Bronstein), was a Jew.  Stalin's
>flavor of Bolshevism may have been influenced by his own prejudices
>and that rivalry.
    
    Yes, this is possibly true.

>Had Trotsky succeeded Lenin, I wonder how things would have changed.
    
    I do not think that Trotsky's Russia would've been much more humane
    than Stalin's or Lenin's. All three were ardent supporters of Red
    Terror during the Civil War. The GULAGs did not start with Stalin.
    Jews were not only persecuted because of some key individuals who were
    anti-semites. The persecution was also due to the Bolshevik's
    totalitarian and atheist ideology.
    
    Alex