Conference taveng::bagels

I would guess a combination of the following reasons:

1) Intermarriage.
2) Conversion to Judaism. Over the years there were quite
a few incidences. (Remember the "Megilla" ?)
3) Natural selection.i.e. I would like to see a blond
tribe prosper in the arabian desert.

    Wouldn't it be the same for all?
    
    My mother's doctor is of Italian decent...very Italian name.  He is
    tall, strawberry blonde hair and heavenly blue eyes and a strong
    pointed nose.
    
    One day he laughingly told my mother that the Vikings raped Euopean
    women way back and occasionally a blonde haired, blue eyed, fair
    complexion baby would show up.  
    
    So it would certainly be feasible that somewhere along the lines the
    Vikings landed in Palistine or Jerusulem.
    
    One of my friends who is black told me how many African Americans are
    fairer skinned than others is because of how the plantation owners
    would visit the areas where the slaves lived and babies were born of 
    both.  This is portrayed in Roots and in Queen recently seen on
    television.
    
    But my question is where did the characteristic of the nose being large
    come from?  As far as I can find out, there were no intermarriages in
    my bloodline...so where did I get this tiny shicksey nose and the
    typical myopic Jewish eyes.  I got nothing to hold up my coke bottle
    bottom trifocle lenses!
    
    me
    I agree with .1 that a blond in the desert wouldn't prosper in the
    Arabian Desert.   Wouldn't a darker skinned person stay dark or even
    get darker in that area.

    2000 or so years of Diaspora can lead to quite a large number of
    additional phenotypes...even if we assume there was a *single*
    phenotype prior to the Roman exile...which is a shakey assumption at
    best.
    
    Daniel

    	Being Jewish is a religion not a race. Are all blacks Muslims? Are
    all French Catholics. Are all Jews Israelis. Are apples, oranges.
    There are people who's religion is Jewish. These people are among
    others, French, Italian, Spanish, Chinese, Dutch, Iranians,
    Palestinians, Americans, Mexicans, Zulus and some day even Martians.

    			Arnie

.4

Arnie,

There are 3 factors that make your comparison to other religions/races/ethnic
groups inappropriate:

1) Judaism has not (in the last 2000 years) been a proselytizing religion.
   You won't see large numbers of people from various ethnic groups joining
   the Jewish people because noone has been asking them to.

2) Judaism strongly discourages intermarriage, to the point where many
   would have been shunned by their families for doing so.

3) Throughout most of the period of the galut in most locations there were
   strong disincentives from the surrounding culture for anyone to join up.

Because of the above, it is reasonable to presume that the vast majority of
Jews have a most of their descent from Jews of the mid-east.  However, genetic
factors that result in varied appearance can become dominant in an isolated
sub-group even with a fairly small intermarriage rate.

In the end one must conclude that being Jewish is not JUST religion but bears
many of the characteristics of a race/culture/ethnic group (or as a group of
related races/cultures/ethnic groups).

Gav

    Well, those are the "official" postions, yes...but let's be realistic.
    
    My home town (Sharon, MA) is nearly 70% Jewish.  In Sharon, there are
    *very* few people I knew who looked particularly Semitic.  In fact,
    most of us looked to be fairly typically Slavic, which makes sense
    considering that most Jews of our region are the descendents of
    immigrants from Slavic nations.
    
    Two millenia is nowhere near enough time to "evolve" from a Semitic
    phenotype without a large infusion of otehr phenotypes over the years. 
    And of course, that is assuming a single Jewish phenotype prior to the
    Diaspora which I believe is shakey at best.
    
    Daniel

Daniel,

You took the words right out of my mouth. 

I agree in part with all the replies so far which can explain 
for SOME of differences. 

But it still remains a fact that Jews from Eastern Europe have 
that "Easatern European" look and Jews from Yemen are very 
easily recognizable as are Jews from Moroco or Syria etc.

The previous replies cannot explain all of these characteristics.

Thanks,

Cb.

I think a lot of this can be attributed to what .2 alludes to: rape.

I agree with .8, partially. According to Jewish law, the child is Jewish if
the mother is Jewish so in cases of rape, there is no question about the
religion of the child. However, I don't really believe that rape can
fully explain why Ethiopean Jews look just like other Ethiopeans, American
Jews (by-and-large) look just like other Americans, Chinese Jews look like
other Chinese, etc etc etc. Were there really THAT many cases of rape?

Personally, I think that intermarriage has been a lot more prevelant than
the official party line admits. You can read about intermarriage in the
Hebrew Bible itself! I feel that intermarriage and, to some extent,
conversions accounts for the observed appearance of Jews.

One further point. The original 12 Hebrew tribes could well have been
genetically distinct. Some tribes were farmers, some were hunters. I wonder
how Moses could pass as an Egyptian prince if his skin was the same color as
mine? My point here is that genetic diversity is nothing new to Judaism.

Dave

> genetic diversity is nothing new to Judaism.

Of course.  Genesis 25:25 describing the birth of Jacob and Esau,
sons of Isaac and Rivka, descibe him as red-haired.

That's going back pretty far.

In hostile environments, I think conversion and intermarriage would be very
rare and rape (unfortunately) would be relatively common.  Throughout
galut, hostile environments have been more prevalent than friendly ones.

The Ethiopians claim to be descendants of the tribe of Dan, but it seems
more likely to me that they're the descendants of converts.

The Chinese Jews intermarried so much that they disappeared.

I'm not sure what Americans look like, so I don't understand your comment
that American Jews look like other Americans.

The twelve tribes were all descendants of one man, Yaakov.  Of course,
his sons married women from various nations, so this may be the origins
of certain racial differences.

> Some tribes were farmers, some were hunters.

Not racially based.  Hunters?  Fishermen, maybe, but it's very difficult
to hunt kosher -- you have to trap the animal without injuring it and
then schecht it.

> I wonder how Moses could pass as an Egyptian prince if his skin was the
> same color as mine?

What makes you think he passed for an Egyptian?  If you're thinking of
Tziporah calling him an Egyptian, he was probably wearing Egyptian
clothes, and she probably hadn't seen many Egyptians.

    .11
    
    I'm afraid that there is a major departure of assumptions here....
    
    I can't really find it in me to accept the Biblical origin stories as
    much more than that: collective origin mythology.  My understanding is
    that archeology supports evidence of several migrations from the
    Trans-Jordan region, resulting in the emergence of a loose affiliation
    of tribal units called Israel by circa 1200 BCE.  But I know of no
    scholarly source that credibly affirms the story of the Patriarchs and
    the mass Exodus.
    
    So discussing from the assumption that Jewish phenotype variations have
    occured since the single originator, Abraham, isn't going to work for
    me.  Sorry.
    
    Daniel

    re .6
    
        
>    My home town (Sharon, MA) is nearly 70% Jewish.  In Sharon, there are
>    *very* few people I knew who looked particularly Semitic.  In fact,
>    most of us looked to be fairly typically Slavic, which makes sense
>    considering that most Jews of our region are the descendents of
>    immigrants from Slavic nations.
    
    I have never been to Sharon, but there is a problem with your
    suggestion. I am not the most able person to describe a "typical"
    Semite or a "typical" Slav, but I know that Slavs themselves
    have no difficulties recognizing Jews in their midst. In fact
    there is a Russian proverb that suggests that antisemites
    beat the Jews not based on and about their Jewish documents
    but based on and about their faces.
    
    Surely there are many East European Jews who carry some Slavic
    genes and some who look like Slavs, but this does not apply
    to the overwhelming majority of EE Jews who look like "EE Jews" 
    and not at all like Slavs.
    
    Finally, what do you mean by "fairly typically Slavic"?
    
    Regards,
    Alex

    I'm the first to admit that my Jewish education is severely lacking. 
    Now, however, I'm really confused.  So Alex could you please explain
    Semitic Jews or Slavic Jews.  Jews are Jews from where ever they come
    from.  
    
    Again, I may be terribly naive.  If not, I am definitely lost.  From 
    where would Semitic Jews originate?
    
    I've been to Sharon many times.  In fact, I'll be buried there some
    day.  I have a second cousin very active in the reform Shul.  I've
    noticed while there the town appears to be sectionalized drastically. 
    Seems to a stranger to be very clique types.  Those I met were either
    very friendly or very rude.  Never have met any middle of the road
    types.
    
    Sharon may be like most every where.  Good/bad/indifferent is all
    around us.
    
    Still, back to the original question.  What makes Jewish people look
    different?  
    
    And my question, where did this shicksey nose come from?  It's pretty
    obvious from where I get my fat a**.  My whole family is this way....
    All of us have rear ends that leave a room 10 minutes after we do.
    
    :-)
    
    me

    There are a few Jewish appearance traits that are somewhat common, such
    as the large nose, but they are far from universal.  The Eastern
    European Jewish genetic base is quite diverse.  
    
    If the author of .14 REALLY wants to know where she got her small nose,
    I'd suggest she look through a family album.  ;-)  Oh, and she implies
    that being short-sighted is a Jewish trait; I never considered this a
    Jewish trait.
    
    Genetics is quite complicated in humans.  Given even a low rate of
    intermarriage and rape, you could still expect to see a proliferation
    of types over time.  On the other hand, Tay Sachs is a genetic disease
    identified with Eastern European Jews (and French Canadians, oddly
    enough).  So, there is clearly SOME genetic commonality, if only in a
    hereditary disease.
    
    Laura

RE:  .13
    
    >I know that Slavs themselves
    >have no difficulties recognizing Jews in their midst. In fact
    >there is a Russian proverb that suggests that antisemites
    >beat the Jews not based on and about their Jewish documents
    >but based on and about their faces.
    
    The ease in recognizing people's backgrounds comes not solely from a
    person's face, but from many cues, both broad and subtle, ranging from
    clothing to speech, to eye contact (less likely from one who is
    socially less powerful), to gestures.
    
    I think if you photographed 100 Jews and gentiles from a given country of
    origin, such as Russia, they would be very hard if not impossible to
    distinguish, provided that they all wore the same clothes, had the same
    haircut and facial hair styles, and looked straight at the camera.
    
    Laura
        

RE: .14
    
>    I'm the first to admit that my Jewish education is severely lacking. 
>    Now, however, I'm really confused.  So Alex could you please explain
>    Semitic Jews or Slavic Jews.  Jews are Jews from where ever they come
    
    I've only used the term "East European Jews", so I cannot possibly
    provide an explanation. By "EE Jews" I mean the Jews who live in
    Poland, Belarus', Ukraine, Romania, Russia and adjacent countries.
    Most of Jews in these areas are Ashkenazim, i.e. "Germans Jews", the
    Jews who migrated via Germany since roughly the XIII century. Most
    of them have either the German or Polish sounding names.
    
RE: .16
    
>    >have no difficulties recognizing Jews in their midst. In fact
>    >there is a Russian proverb that suggests that antisemites
>    >beat the Jews not based on and about their Jewish documents
>    >but based on and about their faces.
>    
>    The ease in recognizing people's backgrounds comes not solely from a
>    person's face, but from many cues, both broad and subtle, ranging from
>    clothing to speech, to eye contact (less likely from one who is
>    socially less powerful), to gestures.
    
    Of course. However, I believe that the facial features of East European
    Jews are easily recognizable in the context of the local population, 
    even if the person in question is dressed as a szlachcic.
    
    Alex

RE: .16 and others
    
>    >have no difficulties recognizing Jews in their midst. In fact
>    >there is a Russian proverb that suggests that antisemites
>    >beat the Jews not based on and about their Jewish documents
>    >but based on and about their faces.
>    
>    The ease in recognizing people's backgrounds comes not solely from a
>    person's face, but from many cues, both broad and subtle, ranging from
>    clothing to speech, to eye contact (less likely from one who is
>    socially less powerful), to gestures.
    
	I can't resist relating this story to you.

	As is known to some of you, my partner and I have been spending
	a large fraction of our lives in E. Europe the last two years.

	Significant to the story is this:  those of you who know me know
	that I am easily "identifiable" -- kippa, full face beard, ...
	However, my partner has no kippa, has a goatee - rather European -
	and is generally "not identifiable." We think, ha ha.  :-)  :-)

	One trip, about a year ago he was in Moscow. On the way out of the 
	hotel, in the evening, some woman ran up to him on the street, 
	and started pointing, gesticulating, and screaming "zhid, zhid...."

	Pretty amazing.

    re .18
    
    I believe it. I've been told that in the past it was not that uncommon
    to observe some "Aryan" (former) Soviets who would routinely point out
    Jews in the streets. As a hobby it seems...  The situation was
    aggravated during Stalin's years, when general distrust and paranoia
    were common, and especially after the "Doctor's plot" when no "honest
    citizen could trust a Jew".
    
    Alex
    
    Disclaimer: I am not implying in any way that Slavs in general are
    somehow genetically or culturally prone to be anti-semites. Clearly,
    the Soviet anti-semitism was politically induced and encouraged
    (under the tables).

    I feel uncomfortable with this discussion, though I don't have the time
    (or maybe the patience) to fully explain why.  I think it touches a
    nerve relating to the very anti-Semitism and Aryan beliefs that have
    been alluded to.
    
    I guess I feel that what makes us distinct is not any particular facial
    features or other body types, but a unique cultural heritage which may
    or may not have some subtle hereditary component in the "neshamah".
    
    I would welcome a personal introduction from Mr. Allister.  I just did
    a search on note 32, and didn't find him there.  Alex, I'm just not
    sure where you're coming from, so I don't know how to hold your
    comments.  Thanks.  
    
    Laura
    

    re .20
    
    Laura, I do not understand what in my posts makes you feel uncomfortable.
    Are you suggesting there is something sinister in my posts? I hope not.
    
    >...Alex, I'm just not sure where you're coming from, so I don't know how
    > to hold your comments.  Thanks.  
    
    My comments are written to be taken at face value and I try to make
    them self-contained. I do not think you should be interpreting my notes
    based on who I am. What I write, I write without ulterior motives. If
    you do not understand what I wrote or meant, pls ask either here or in
    email. Furthermore, I make it a point NOT to read 32.* -- I prefer to
    learn about noters based on what they say, not who they claim they are.
    "Judge me not by the colour of my skin ..."
    
    Regards,
    Alex
    
    NB If you insist on titles, and I hope you don't, it's "Dr." 

    RE:  .21
    
    Didn't mean to say you aren't nice.  I don't know you at all.
    
    A writer's background influences how one interprets his statements,
    especially given a paucity of information.  After awhile in Notes, one
    gets a sense of acquaintence, despite the medium's limited
    capabilities.  I don't yet have that with you, nor do I know you
    personally.  This is why I asked to know more about you.
    
    Laura
    
    
    

     Jews certainly cannot be defined as a genetic race.
     (race has a non-biological definition as well).

     The Jews are a nation with their own unique, inseparable religion.
     The fact that Judaism accepts converts from all races is proof that
     it cannot itself be a race since one cannot change his race by
     ritual.

     As early as the exodus from Egypt, 'a mingling of nations' joined
     the ranks of the newly formed Hebrew nation. Many key personages in
     Jewish history are the descendants of converts (King David for
     example).

     Many Jews possess some 'typical' Jewish characteristics because
     these are probably the dominant traits which survived after 3500 or
     so years of Jewish history. Since in any generation converts were
     *relatively* few and since they would naturally tend to marry
     born-Jews, most Jews today are probably de facto somehow descendant
     from the original Hebrews. But you can also be a good, legitimate
     Jew without a single Hebrew gene. I don't think anyone can say for
     sure what is an original Hebrew facial feature and what was aquired
     through conversions. 

-Itzhak          

    
    According to Halakah a Cohen is not allowed to marry a convert.
    A Cohen also can trace his genetics back to Aharon. 
    
    That does not preclude him marrying a daughter of a convert.
    
    I do not find that I can recognize Cohens as more 'Jewish' in their 
    looks :-) 
    
    Make of this as you will
    
    Malcolm

    So says a Levite? ;-)
    
    Don't forget that a lot of us who are identified by names as Cohenim
    are not.  My last name is "officially" a priest's name, but it was
    given to my family by Ellis Island.  We had to explain this to our
    rabbi when he wanted my father to do the first blessing over the Torah
    reading a couple of years back.
    
    "Nobody here but us Israelites..."
    
    Daniel

    While conversions from Christianity and Islam are now rare, and
    most (all?) Jewish sects (branches?) don't proselytize, the ancient
    world saw many conversions to Judaism in the centuries before
    Christianity got going (source is a Scientific American article).
    There were several tribes of Jews in Arabia, as well as the Khazars
    in Ukraine, for example.
    
    I have read that before the time of the Roman conquest of Judea it
    was already true that more Jews lived outside of Israel than inside.
    
    So the genetic diversity was there two thousand years ago.
    
    Moses most likely was in Egypt during the end of the time of the
    Hyksos, who were were non-Egyptian invaders apparently related to
    the Jews and other Semetic peoples of the Fertile Crescent.  He would
    have looked like lots of other people, even if not like a pre-invasion
    Egyptian of the Old Kingdom.
    
    Colin McEvedy, in the Penguin Atlas of Ancient History, suggests that
    it was the re-establishment of a native Egyptian dynasty that made Egypt
    uncomfortable for the Jews and sparked the exodus to Israel.
    
    		-John Bishop

RE: .9

>I agree with .8, partially. According to Jewish law, the child is Jewish if
>the mother is Jewish so in cases of rape, there is no question about the
>religion of the child. However, I don't really believe that rape can
>fully explain why Ethiopean Jews look just like other Ethiopeans, American
>Jews (by-and-large) look just like other Americans, Chinese Jews look like
>other Chinese, etc etc etc. Were there really THAT many cases of rape?

So what do Americans look like anyway?

~Caryn

    So what do Americans look like?
    
    Overweight, sloppy grooming, wear jeans and tshirts... ;-)
    
    Laura

    Re: -1
    > So what do Americans look like?
    >
    > Overweight, sloppy grooming, wear jeans and tshirts... ;-)
    
    You mean Israelis don't you ? :-)
    
    	Yaacov

.27>	So what do Americans look like anyway?

Well, I've been told by Israelis that I look like an American.  And if you want
more convincing evidence:  My brother, while dressed in his Israeli army
uniform, was identified by a total stranger (Israeli) as an American.

I suppose that a Chinese Jew might be equally puzzled if he were told that he
looked like other Chinese.

    While I was youth-hostelling in Europe, I could almost always
    tell the Americans from a distance: as mentioned, they were
    more sloppily dressed.  They were also louder, but they weren't
    overweight--but this was a select group after all, those who
    were willing to go to hostels.  The American tour groups were
    even more obvious, and they were overweight.
    
    		-John Bishop

.30>I suppose that a Chinese Jew might be equally puzzled if he were told that he
.30>looked like other Chinese.

There is the (possibly well-known) joke about the American Jew who was in
Hong-Kong for Rosh Hashanna, and went to a local shule. Everyone there (besides
the American Jew) looke Chinese, but they davened just the way he was used to
back in Brooklyn. At the end of the davening, he told the Rabbi that he was
astonished to find that their davening was just like he was used to. The Rabbi
said "Are you Jewish? Thats funny, you don't *look* Jewish".