Conference taveng::bagels

    I found the movie very entertaining.  While I am not an expert
    on Hasidic teachings, culture, or interpretations of the Talmud,
    I found the relationships similar to the ones I recall many
    years ago in Boston.  I recall a Hasidic friend, and recall
    his family as extremely rigid in terms of how they orchestrated
    their lifestyle, but very warm, loving, and honest.
    
    I supposed I was shocked by some of the Hasidim I met in Israel, who
    struck me as zealots.
    
    As far a information on Kaballah, there are many books available.
    Most Synagogues that have Hebrew schools will have books in their
    libraries on this subject.
    
    Ron
    
    this subject

    
    The psychic notes file has many notes about the kaballah.  
    
    Most "new age" book stores will have many books on the kaballah.  
    
    There is also a woman in the Leominster, Mass area that does classes
    on it and readings using it...  If you are interested send me mail ...
    
    Regards,
    
    Sandy

    Steven,
    
    There are several Judaica book stores here in Atlanta, which may have
    books on the Kaballah.  Also try Oxford Book Stores both at Peachtree
    Battle and at Pharr Road in Buckhead which both have decent Judiaca
    sections.  If you want to know more come and talk to me.
    
    Mark

Why do people who haven't even studied Chumash think that Kabbalah is
for them?  Traditionally, Kabbalah isn't studied except by the most
accomplished talmidei chachamim, and then only after they've reached
the age of 40.  Even so, I'd venture to say that the vast majority of
over-40 talmidei chachamim wouldn't even think of studying Kabbalah.

This is not a direct answer to your question,but I suggest you to read the book
"The Earth is the Lord's - The Inner World of the Jew in East Europe",
written by Abraham Joshua Heschel and published in Yiddish by Shocken in
1946 in New York and in English by Abelard-Schuman,London,NY,Toronto 1950.

Heschel was born in Varsaw from a chassidic family.He went to England in 1938 
and after to the States.
He realized to be one of the last survivors of a positive,spiritual heritage
coming from the East european Jews;the vanishing niggun,the melody coming
from the world od the east European Jews that he wanted to make known to the 
world before it disappears.
Its book is at the same time didascalic and as such useful for people like me 
who had not a previous knowledge of it (there is one short chapter on the 
Quabbalah),but mostly poetic.It gives you not only the informations,but also 
the flavour of what this world was.
I have just finished reading it and I found it at the same time emotional and 
stimulating.

Donatella

    re .4 Gerald,
    
    I can think of a number of reasons. 
    
    The Kabbalah appears to offer a mysticism and spirituality 
    that will not be found when studying the intrucate laws of the
    chumash. 
    
    This is an appealing contrast to the rigours of everyday life. 
    
    Also, we are living in an age where all things must be instant. 
    Why wait till you're at least 40 and have met some unattainable 
    goal? 
    
    Malcolm

re .4 (again)

The reason people want to learn about Kabbalah is because they don't know 
anything about it.  Your comment about when it is 'appropriate' to learn 
kabbalah is based on the idea that people want to steep themselves in the 
learnings and mysticism.

In the case of the originator of the note, I interpreted his request as one 
of 'I saw something interesting, I know nothing about it, how can I learn 
more'  Perhaps after reading an introduction he will realize that the study 
of Kabbalah is not for him; but at least his curiosity will be satisfied.  
[I am, of course, putting words in his mouth and could be totally wrong]

_Susan (who knows nothing about kabbalah and keeps missing the introductory 
lectures that happen at the Tremont Street Shul)

    
    re .8:
    
    Thank you.  My understanding so far is that Kaballah is about a more
    mystical, in-the-moment experience of G-d in one's life.  In "A
    Stranger Among Us", there is dialogue between the chief male
    protagonist and a friend of his, in which the friend expresses shock
    that the protagonist is studying Kaballah.  The friend's comments
    articulated a viewpoint that (in my understanding of it) it is
    necessary to have studied the non-mystical laws and teachings for many
    years in order to benefit from studying the mystical teachings of the
    Kaballah.  There was a suggestion that it was a "no-no" to explore the
    Kaballah without such preparation.
    
    I do not accept this.  I assert that a person can have a true,
    in-the-moment, mystical experience of G-d in their life without needing
    to study the non-mystical laws and teachings for years.  Granted -
    years of study may yield greater understanding and wisdom.  This does
    not mean that laymen cannot benefit from the study of Jewish mysticism.
    
    Of course, I probably don't know what I'm talking about, but when it
    comes to such things, what human being really does?
    
    Steve
    

    Dear Steve,
    
    Obviously one may read and study whatever one likes.  There are many
    books available in English on the Kabbalah, and one need only stop in
    at the local bookstore.  There are many teachers who offer courses and
    seminars.
    
    What one would have great difficulty doing, is finding a qualified
    teacher.  For that matter, it is difficult to find quality texts on the
    Kabbalah in English.  Be aware that there are lots of schlock books on
    the subjects, published to make a buck and sold in the mystical "new
    age" bookstores.  
    
    Very few authors of English-language Kabbalah books have real
    qualifications in the subject.  Those who do publish usually keep the
    level rather shallow.  The deeper insights come from studying in Hebrew.
    
    The proscription against study of Kabbalah before one reaches a certain
    age has real bearing on Orthodox and Hassidic people.  They are limited
    not only by difficulties finding teachers and books, but by community
    pressure.  I believe the intention is to keep people focused on their
    family and communal responsibilites before branching off into what
    might ba a "mind blowing" experience.
    
    Laura

re .10:

I don't think communal pressure is a major factor.  I think the more you
know, the more you realize how little you know.  There are very few people
who *ever* reach the level of knowledge that prepares them to study Kabbalah.

My impression is that Kabbalah is not something you learn from books.
It's passed on one-to-one from teacher to student.

    
    re: .10-.11
    
    I think you folks bring up very valid points.  I will not expect much
    more than a cursory understanding of Kaballah from reading only an
    English translation (I have no interest in Kaballah as an "occult"
    topic).  And when it comes to spiritual traditions, a wise teacher *is*
    certainly essential for proper understanding.
    
    I have enjoyed this interchange immensely and appreciate your candid
    feedback!
    
    Steve
    

    Someone is bound to come down on me like a ton of bricks for what I am
    about to comment but here is my humble opinion:
    
    re: .4
    
    It appears to me that the "bloc" of people who are enthusiastic about
    Kabbalah could be describe as "new age transfers", i.e. those who were
    involved in buddhism/eastern mysticism/etc., and who would like to find
    similar qualities in Judaism.  
    
    As for me understanding each week's sidrah is complex enough without
    looking for hidden mystical/empirical meaning.
    
    Re: .8
    
    Check out my comment above, Susan.
    
    --David 

    
    David,
    
    no bricks from me, I think you've made an interesting observation that
    I do not entirely disagree with.
    
    Steve L.
    

>    I recently viewed the video of "A Stranger Among Us" with Melanie
>    Griffith and as a result have become curious about the Kaballah.
  
>    For those of you that have seen the film, I'm also interested in your
>    views as to how accurately the film depicted Jewish teachings (both
>    mainstream and Kaballah) and Hasidic culture/lifestyle.
  
I just saw this and thought it was quite ridiculous -- implausable and
unrealistic, and the acting and dialogue were awful.  But this isn't
the movie conference, so I won't comment on Melanie Griffith's acting
talents.  I'll just say the following:

If the movie became as popular as "10", it would probably do for
sales of "Kabala" what "10" did for Ravel's Bolero.  It seems to
depict the kabala as kind of a spiritual sex manual.  

The hasidim in the movie couldn't even "shuckle" right (the swaying
movement in prayer), and their attempts at yiddish accents were
comical.  The payos (sidecurls) looked pasted on and weren't even 
pasted on in the right place.  Minor inaccuracies -- I've never heard
of separate refrigerators for milk and meat.  Though I suppose it's
possible some people do that, it's unlikely they would scream (as the
chracter in the movie did) if you put the milk in the wrong fridge.
The Friday night dancing scene was a panic -- it looked like a wedding,
except I would guess that a hasidic sect so religious as to have 
separate refrigerators would not have a woman singing for everyone's
pleasure on Friday night.

In short, don't look to Hollywood for accurate descriptions of
Jewish life and learning.

I just saw the film last night and thoroughly enjoyed it.  I mostly disagree
with .15.  I think he is looking at nits.  Step back and look at the overall
scene.  The hassidim were depicted as a people who cared for one another and 
we (I feel) overly steeped in rules for everything in life.  There was a rather
accurate depicted of mainstream Judaism's feeling towards Hassidim in the 
character of Levine.  Mostly, the absolute impossibility of a "Hollywood" ending
for Griffith and Ariel was carried through to perfection.

Granted there were extremes, and probable inaccuracies.  But what I noticed as
a non-observant Jew who strongly identifies with my Jewish background and
heritage is that it portrayed us in a VERY favorable light and might lead
(through education) to a more tolerant society.

I, too, thought that there was an overemphasis (and probable mis-depiction) of 
the kaballah -- but then I am not a student of the kaballah.  I personally
found his explanation of predestiny with choice totally incongruous.  It is one
or the other - black or white.  Frankly, the choice aspect is one of the great
aspects of Judaism as it calls upon us to constantly strive to improve.

Just my opinions.

Shelly

    The author of the screenplay spent time in Brookline, MA and asked the
    Bostoner Rebbe if he could take pictures of his home and office (and
    him and his family). My wife and I saw the movie (before we knew of the
    Bostoner connection) and remarked to each other during the film how
    much it looked like the Rebbe's environment...even down to the PCs in
    the converted dining rooom/reception room.  Yes, the Rebbe has lively
    dancing at the end of his Shabbos Tish(Meal) and if you look carefully
    as you walk through the kitchen, you will see what looks like two
    refridgerators...though they are actually one fridge and one freezer.
    Hag kasher v'sameach
    
    ___Av

    I thought the two most beautiful scenes in the movie were the dancing
    at Shabbat, and the scene of the boy being taught how the Name of G-d
    is sweet.
    
    FWIW