Conference taveng::bagels

    Hello again dear Sunil,
    
    Without knowing these particular books, I can't speak to the authors'
    biases.  I think perhaps you are overreacting.  You write that the
    authors wrote very little about the Jews in India; It is hard to do a
    balanced presentation of ANYTHING in just a few words.
    
    A recent novel, Flowers in the Blood, is a family history about the
    Jews in India, particularly the traders from Baghdad who settled in
    Calcutta.  I must warn the potential reader that it falls into the
    "romance" category, but it has enough elements of the historical novel
    and family saga to make it interesting.  Without knowing more about the
    history of the Jews in India, I can't say how well this book represents
    their history.
    
>   What offended me was that the Jewish
>    people have such negative attitudes towards Indians.  

    I don't think this is true.  It is too bad that the books you read
    were unbalanced, but please don't generalize from this about the 
    attitudes of the Jewish people.

>   Now the question is why do the Jewish people always seem to ignore the
>   positive when it comes to India ?  Is it because we are not the "People
>    of the Book" ?  

    Again, I think you are generalizing and coming to some false conclusions.
    In all my life in the Jewish community, I cannot recall any bias or
    negative attitudes toward India or Indians.

    Moslems and Christians have been (and many still are) prejudiced against
    "heathens" who do not share their beliefs.  The Jews hold a quite
    different point of view.

    In BAGELS we previously discussed Jewish attitudes toward the Hindu
    religion.  Maybe another noter can identify that string.

>   How about Jews from India telling us here what life
>   was/is like for them.  What were the major achivements and
>   contributions of the Jews in/of India ?  

    Yes, this would be interesting.

>   What are the attitudes of the Jews towards India today ?

    Remember when you ask this that the Jews are not a single, unified,
    political body.  It would be interesting to know the political, trade,
    and diplomatic stance of Israel toward India.  The attitude of Jews
    in various settlements worldwide can be quite diverse.    

>   With all the terrible things that happened to the Jews I feel that at
>   times you as a race of people forget the terrible things that have
>   happened to others.  

    In America, the Jews were very active in the black Civil Rights Movement,
    motivated largely by their identification with the suffering and 
    oppression of the blacks.

    Naturally, Jewish history books focus on Jewish history.  They don't
    aim to give a full presentation of the many people among whom the
    Jews have lived.  Probably the authors you read put a lot of stock in
    political participation, and slighted information about other aspects
    of life such as religious freedom and economic opportunity.  Further,
    Jewish histories focus on the larger settlements.  The authors may not
    have done much research on the Indian settlements and probably viewed
    them as peripheral.

    L

    Re: Moslems and Christians have been (and many still are) prejudiced
    against "heathens" who do not share their beliefs.  The Jews hold
    a quite different point of view.
    
    Maybe that's what it looks like from the inside, but it looks quite
    different from the outside.  There seems to be an unfortunately very
    strong thread running thru Judaism to the effect that non-Jews are
    less valued as human beings.  Just as an example, I note the recent
    discussion about whether giving one's word to a non-Jew is actually
    binding, and various comments about the life of one Jew being worth
    much more than the lives of numerous non-Jews.  Of course, there are
    plenty of Jewish people who find those ideas repellent.
    

    re:.0
    
    please keep in mind that the presence of Jews in India is rather
    "exotic" for the Jewish community as a whole as well as for non-Jews
    (Indian or other).  Consequently, little has been written, and I
    wouldn't be surprised if some of it was inaccurate.
    
    Also worth noting that at one time Israel had a Indian Jewish community
    (some of whom I met in 1971).  But even in Israel knowledge of Indian
    Jews was not widespread.  Even I am amazed and intrigued to read
    articles and books regarding Jews of China, India, Afghanaistan, etc. 
    
    You mentioned how Jews in India supported the British and how you felt
    "betrayed" by that action since the Jews were well treated yet the
    British were invaders.  Can't comment directly.  However, often Jews
    have welcomed other powers, even occupying powers, as liberators during
    times of oppression.  Excellent example is the Jewish response to
    Napoleon.  Napoleon liberated the ghettos through out Europe, allowed
    Jews to assume citizenship of their respective countries, and was
    responsible for allowing Jews to enter part of the European mainstream.
    
    
    re:.2
    
    Often Jews have been viewed as hostile to non-Jews, even regarding
    non-Jews as "inferior".  A couple of things should be noted.
    
    First, in the early centuries of the Diaspora Jews elected to maintain
    separate communities as a way of adhering to religion, Jewish law, etc. 
    Often such was viewed by non-Jews as an effort by Jews to resist
    becoming part of the larger nation state.  However, institutional
    Christianity, nationalism, etc. often encouraged rejection of the Jews
    as equals creating a cycle of one community not full accepting the
    other.
    
    Second, a reference regarding Jews not having to keep agreement,
    promises, etc, with non-Jews.  Never heard of such a thing.  What you
    may be referring to is accusations by non-Jews that during Yom Kippur
    Jews recite the Kol Nidre which allows Jews to aborgate agreements made
    the previous year.  This is only between Jews and G-d, NOT between or
    among people.  Jewish law always calls for Jews to honor agreements,
    commitments, promises made with individuals and communities.  Now the
    purpose behind the Kol Nidre was tied to oppression.  Kol Nidre was
    written during the time of the Spanish Inquisition when Jews were
    forced to convert to Catholicism or face the consequences.  Many Jews
    "converted" but remained pious in private.  Kol Nidre therefore allowed
    those who "converted" to privately renounce that coversion, that pledge
    that was made under duress.  Again, it has no bearing on agreements
    between individuals.
    
    harry

    Hi All,
    
    Re: .1, Laura I must say that I did make generizations in an attempt to
    get the discussion going.  You should know me by now as the man who can
    be a bit outrageous :-) !!!!!.
    
    I have got to admit that I have found some very tolerent and lovely
    Jewish people and have felt much warmth.  Because of some cultural
    differences and the negative points of view I was told about jews built
    a brick wall that was hard to break down.  I for my part want to know
    alot more about the Jewish people and their history so that I can put
    those negative things where they belong (in the bin).
    
    I would be quite interested to know about the attitudes of the Jewish
    people towards the Hindus.  When ever I have talked to Christians or
    get a Muslim point of view they always refer to some Jewish history to
    justify their prejudiced against "heathens".  So by telling me I have a
    way of confronting them with facts.
    
    I am also interested in the architecture and arts of Indians Jews to
    see how they were influenced by their host communities, if at all.  How
    they preserved their culture and identity etc.
    
    To go on to .2 what you have said is how I have seen things and the
    reason being that Islam does indeed value non-believer less than
    believers.  My first thought was since the Jewish religion is the root
    of the Middle-eastern religions this must have come from the Jewish
    faith.  But reply .3 seems to shed more light upon the subject and
    gives a different point of view and I can accept that without a
    problem.
    
    However I do have to add that the first British "Government"
    representative in Bombay was a Jew.  I wonder if the Jews actually took
    part in the First Revolution commonly know as the "Indian Mutiny", to
    gain independence ?  It would be great if someone who has done research
    or can get details about Indian Jewish History and put them here.  Soo
    little is know about the Indian Jews and their lives in India, I feel
    that knowing the history will help bring our two people closer
    together.
    
    The Indian Government I know has not had dipolmatic ties with Israel
    and has followed the Arab line and recognised the PLO etc.  But this is
    not the way many Hindus feel about Israel and her people and some like
    me oppose this line totally.  I am sure that you will come across
    Indians who feel the same way as I do.  Please feel free to discuss
    this and any other point of view regarding Israel and India.
    
    I for my part do not hold the any of the views that Christian or
    Muslims have about Jews you are just people like anyone else.  I hope
    that Jews will know that there was/is at least one place in the world 
    they were welcomed and still are.  I suppose friendship is what I am
    hoping for and better understanding.
    
    Thanks for all your replies,
    
    Sunil

Re: .2, .3

I think Karen was referring to the discussion in the Halachic Newsletter
thread where there was a discussion about whether certain laws were binding
on Jews according to Halacha (Jewish law). The conclusion there was that
if a law has no anti-Semitic intent (or effect?) then it is binding on
Jews. I'm not sure about the reference to valuing Jewish lives more than
non-Jews -- but I think it is just a formalism of the idea of "save your
own first" which I doubt that anyone anywhere rejects.

Dave

    Re: .5
    
    ... the idea of "save your own first" which I doubt that anyone
    anywhere rejects.
    
    I reject it.  That idea leads to Balkanization.
    
    				Paul
    

re .6:

So you'd rather defend a stranger's life than your wife's?


re Jewish attitude towards Hinduism:

There was a discussion in Mail.Jewish (note 75 in here) recently about
which religions are considered idol worship.  One of the contributors
was raised as a Hindu.

    I just looked back through this file's directory to find what I
    remembered as a previous discussion about Jews and Hindus.
    
    The note was #1206 and it was started by Mr. Sethi on the topic of
    anti-Semitism.  I think we touched on Jews attitude to Hindus in that
    discussion.
    
    Maybe not much help for this one, but anyway. . .
    
    Shabbat Shalom, y'all!
    
    L
    

The former Hindu's discussion of Hinduism as idol worship is in 75.511.

    Hi Gerald,
    
    Thanks for your pointer I have read the note it's interesting but I
    don't understand the Hebrew words so I am a bit lost.
    
    I would like to add a couple of things I receive news letters and
    magazines from the one of the opposition party in India (BJP).  In one
    of the magazines they have commented upon the best migrants to have
    come to India and who contributed positively to the host nation.  The
    two mentioned were the Jews and Parsees as being the best of the lot.
    
    It's also interesting that that the BJP wants to have full diplomatic
    relations with Israel and not recognise the PLO etc.  Full diplomatic
    relations would mean cooperation in all fields and hopefully cultural
    exchanges.
    
    I wonder if Israel will open a consulate in Cochin where the Jewish
    population has and is settled ?  This would be a good thing because the
    synagogues could be used and maintained by Jews.  The positive aspects
    would be that Jews and Indians could finally fit this part of the jig
    saw puzzle of the Jews history.  I look forward to this happening.
    
    While the Government of India namely the Congress party does not want
    to establish full diplomatic relations I wonder if there is an
    Indo/Israel society ?  If not have Jews and Hindus/Indians got anything
    within digital ?  We do not have to wait for governments to help us
    establish friendship we the people should do it.
    
    regards,
    
    Sunil

.10>    While the Government of India namely the Congress party does not want
.10>    to establish full diplomatic relations ...

During the past year, the Indian government did decide to upgrade relations
with Israel to a "normal" status.  There is now an Indian ambassador to Israel
-- for the first time, if I'm not mistaken.

There's at least one Indian Jew who works for Digital in India (or did a few
months ago).  He spotted my yarmulke here at ZKO and introduced himself.

    Hi Sunil,
    
    Here is one Indian Jew responding to your note. For now please read my
    note: 881.3.  I have a whole bunch of comments for you, but cannot take
    the time to write now (since it's probably going to be a lenghty note).
    
    Do not be disappointed if you do not see many responses.  The Indian
    Jewish population is not very large. You will probably be able to
    count the Indian Jews that work for DEC on your fingers!
    
    Bye for now.
    Judy

    My recollection is that the discussion about keeping one's
    word was in the context of the Pollard case.
    

    Hi Eric,
    
    Re .11 - The Indian government still has some restrictions hence my
    comment, I read this only a few weeks ago.  As far back as the BJP goes
    and it has always wanted diplomatic relations with Israel and closer
    cooperation in many fields, from defense, industry, cultural exchange etc.
    
    Re .13, Well Hello and Namasta Judy it's good to see you a fellow
    Indian.  I read your note and it was very positive I hope that you can
    reply with your comments.  I would like to fill in the gaps in my
    knowledge of Indian history.
    
    Thanks all for your positive responses,
    
    Sunil

    Prior to this "normalization of relations", the de facto Indian
    consulate in Israel was the British embassy.  Much business had been
    transacted via that address.
    
    --David

    This is the information I got from the novel Flowers in the Blood.  It 
    may not be accurate - I'm just repeating what it said.
    
    Through the early twentieth century (at least) there were 2 Jewish
    communities in India.  
    
    The Bene Israel  descended from traders who settled (were
    shipwrecked?) on India's west coast many centuries ago.  The Bene
    Israel have their own unique traditions.  In appearance they resemble
    local Indians.  
    
    A second community was founded in the 19th (18th?) century by Baghdadi
    Jews who came to India to trade.  They retained many of their Baghdad
    customs and had limited intermarriage with the Bene Israel.  Most of
    the Baghdadi Jews later emigrated to England, the USA, and elsewhere. 
    Their largest settlement was in Calcutta.
    
    L

                Attention Israel Line Recipients
 
                    Tuesday, January 19, 1993
 
 
Israeli-Indian Commercial and Economic Ties Broadened
 
YEDIOT AHRONOT reported last Sunday that India is broadening its
commercial and economic ties with Israel. Three representatives of
the large multi-national Tata Corporation are visiting Israel to
inspect telecommunications, agricultural and bio-technological
plants to see whether they would be viable in India. The newspaper
adds that the Israel Export Institute will, for the first time,
take part next month in an international trade-show in New Delhi
for metals and metal industrial equipment. The show, which is held
every two years, is considered one of the most important of its
kind. In the third quarter of 1992, Israeli exports to India
totalled $92 million, compared with $55 million in the same period
the year before. Imports from India totalled $56 million, an
increase from the $48 million in the same quarter last year.
 
 
Today's Israel Line was prepared by Gideon Sa'ar, Sharon Eshet and
Robert Socolof.


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    Hi My friends,
    
    I saw this very positive note on the Internet and enjoyed it very much. 
    I hope that you enjoy it as well.
    
    Regards,
    
    Sunil
    
Hindus, Jews share bonds of faith
From: [email protected] (dileep s karanth)
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 94 12:53:11 EST

Hindus, Jews share bonds of faith
The University of Texas - Austin 
    
This article was copied from "Hindus, Jews share bonds of Faith -- An
interfaith gathering for Hanukkah" by Steve Brunsman, which appeared
under the rubric "Religion and Ethics", The Houston Post, December 11
1993.

The ancient faiths of Hindu and Jew are not commonly linked, yet both
pull at India-born artist Bentzion Ben Yosef Yakof, an Israeli
immigrant who now lives in Houston.
	Yakov, born in Bombay, India, was raised in a big Jewish
practising family. They regularly observed the eight-day Jewish
festival of Hanukkah. They burned oil in colored glass bowls. His
mother baked special cookies. 
	Interestingly, the Hindu families in the neighbourhood showed
up to celebrate too. "We are called the people of light", Yakov said.
"Our family was known as the Oil Liighters. We would sing Hanukkah
songs and the other people living in our neighbourhood would come by
and join in. For the Indians, it was always good to be part of any
festival."
	"We were respected. There was freedom. There was no conversion
impulse in Jewish or Hindu life", he said.

Yakov's family roots reach back 300 years. Like some Indian Jews, he
considers his ties to his faith to be biblical, a solution to the 10
"lost" tribes of Israel. 

The Hanukkah celebration, which opened here officially Wednesday,
included an interfaith gathering. About 40 Hindus and Jews, including
rabbis and Hindu priests, toured the special Hanukkah program, called
the Great Hanukkah Adventure, at the Jewish Community Center - West
Houston. 
	Hanukkah commemorates the rededication of the Jerusalem Temple
in 165 B.C. and the victory of the Maccabees over the Syrians. The
temple had been profaned when an outside ruler, Antiochus IV, tried to
force the Jews to make sacrifices to heathen deities.
	The festival is also linked to the miracle of oil when a
one-day vial of oil burned for eight days in the rededicated Temple.
Hanukkah candles are lit in succession each night on the symbolic
candleholder called the menorah.
	The Jewish-Hindu Friendship Forum here is co-chaired by
D.N.Srivastva and Nathan Wolkovitz. Both agreed that Hindus and Jews
share cultural and faith bonds despite obvious differences.
	For example, Hindus and Jews do not try to convert people to
believe in their religion. Historically, both faiths endured invasion
from outside groups. Both religions have mystical sides.
	The two spokesmen even pointed to monotheism -- belief in a
single deity -- as a shared outlook, although Hinduism is known in the
West as polytheistic -- a faith of diverse deities.
	In Hindu philosophy, scholars said, belief in one omnipresent
God, does not conflict with the Hindu pantheon of gods and goddesses.
Hindus believe God "dwells in the heart of all beings", making the
paths to God infinite.
	On the other hand, worship of multiple gods was immoral in
Jewish life.
	"My goal is to bring Jews and Hindus togetther. These two
faiths stand out as the only ones that don't believe in forced
conversions. Jews all over the world were persecuted. In India, the
Jews were accepte as equals" reported Srivastva. "They are one of us".

	"We both take religion and devotion very seriously. But we both don't
believe the world has to practise our personal religion to reach
divine grace", said Wolkovitz. "People like Ben Yakof have come out of
India with Judaism intact and that speaks for itself". 

	Yakof's Bombay is home today to an estimated 5000 Indian Jews.
The oldest group there , the B'nai Israel of Bombay, includes members
who claimed descent from the "lost" Israelite tribes that broke away
from the kingdom of Judah after the death of Solomon. 
	They were later "carried away into Assyria", the Old Testament
records. Said Yakof, "We claim that we belong to the lost tribe of
Benjamin". 
	Yakof attended Hindu and Jewish schools in Bombay until age
12. His family immigrated after World War II to Israel. He fought
during the Six Day war in June 1967. Houston became his home in the
1980's. 
	In Bombay, Yakof's family attended the David Sassoon
Synagogue, named for rich Indians known as the "Rothschilds of the
east". Yakof said his parents were open-minded -- as he put it,
"observant but cosmic". He was allowed to visit Christian churches and
view fiery Hindu funerals. 
	The signs of his Indian childhood appear in Yakof's unique
form of self-taught art, based partly on the mystical Jewish tradition
known as the Kabbalah.
	In his art often appear menorahs, Hebrew and Aramaic words and
blessings, and Hindu-inspired living forms and "particles". The
primary colors of India are his favorites.
	His work has been praised by a local Orthodox rabbi, and he
has exhibited at a Houston corporation.