Conference taveng::bagels

Believe me, I have no patience for bigotry, whether it is aimed at fellow
Jews, Jewish women, blacks, Indians, Poles, or anyone else. But I find far
more disturbing the fact that the American Jewish community sits passively
while American society bulls ahead with institutionalized discrimination
for politically correct groups with simultaneous discrimination against
politically unapproved groups.

The simple fact is that you cannot have a just society if it favors *any*
group or *disfavors* any group. Jews' silence on this is unsat and makes me
very angry.

Not too long ago I applied for, and was certified as well qualified for, a 
job I very much wanted with the US Government. When I heard nothing further, 
I asked a number of regional managers for this government agency why I had 
not been called. Three of these people were brave enough to tell me that 
"they (district managers in this government agency) had been ordered not 
to hire any more white males" until a certain, preselected percentage of 
new hires had been obtained from the female and black population. The fact 
that Jews are vastly underrepresented in this agency was not a consideration; 
Jews are not a "politically correct minority." My disappointment and anger 
at this revelation remains undiminished.

As long as we, as a society, continue to discriminate against *any* group, not 
only will "JAP" jokes prove impossible to end, but we as a society will 
continue to cripple ourselves.


Regards,

Ken Sherman
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:	TNPUBS::STEINHART "Laura DTN 226-7239 at LKG1  24-Nov-1992 0856" 24-NOV-1992 09:30:16.37
To:	@JLIST.DIS
CC:	@JLIST_CC.DIS
Subj:	AJC targets JAP jokes and denigration of Jewish women

From:	TERSE::AUGUSTINE "Liz, LKG2-2/Z7, dtn 226-5115  23-Nov-1992 1645" 23-NOV-1992 16:45:09.79
From:	SALEM::LUPACCHINO "There's a world beyond this room  27-Mar-1989 0752" 27-MAR-1989 07:49:18.70
From:	WFOOFF::WFOOFF::MRGATE::"A1::HURLEY.ESTELITA" 24-MAR-1989 13:57
From:	NAME: ESTELITA M. HURLEY            
From:	NAME: Diane C. Denehy               

'way back in '85, I posted 33.0 in this notefile.

  Nice to know the Jewish establishment is catching up...:-(

Bobbi

    Re: .0
    
    There is one statement that I'd question:
    
    >It is particularly perplexing in view of the fact that no other ethnic
    >or  religious group has consistently demeaned their women or permitted
    >their public  humiliation in this manner.
    
    I think a closer examination of other R&E groups will show that
    male-female conflict is pretty ubiquitous, and that negative
    stereotyping of women by men is pretty common.  I guess I don't travel
    in the right circles because even though I occasionally read articles
    like this, my own first hand observations would indicate to me that it
    is less common among the Jews that I know than among non-Jews.  It is
    important that I make clear that I am neither condoning such behavior
    nor dismissing Greenman's assertions, but simply suggesting that a
    broader perspective might indicate that it is not necessarily a
    specifically Jewish problem.
    
    I would be interested to know if there are people here who have
    first-hand experience with the phenomenon Greenman describes.
    
                                         Aaron
    

    
      .1
    
      I agree with you that Jewishness is not seen as a minority
      in "politically correct" circles.
    
      In my opionion this is in part due to pure anti-Semetism!!;
      but it is also in part due to our situation. As opressed
      people who can often "pass" as white it is very tempting to 
      "stay in the closet" as a Jew. But if we don't work to make
      ourselves a protected minority, it aint gonna happen !
      (partly cause we're often the ones doing this work for 
      other minorities..in a disproportionate percenage....
    
      One of the things that irks me and fills me wit
      embarrasment and discomfort is the expression:
      Judao-christian...which in my opinion is not the same 
      at all (Judao-Buddhist would be closer to the truth if
      one had to tie things together to avoid differences(!!)
      (Fear of difference/disagreement, BTW, is I think, is 
      more of a Christian and not a Jewish concept.   
    
      On the original topic,  I want to disagree with one point:
      That Jeiwish men are traditionally used to being the main
      breadwinner and are threatened by the fact that Jewish
      women are successful in the workplace etc. While this may
      be one generation old, If we talk about tradition...its a 
      whole different thing...Jewish women have traditionally been
      very active in running familly bussinesses and working out
      in the world; Because the men were studying the torah in 
      shule in "those" days... 
    
      In my familly women have been strong breadwinners as far 
      back as I know (at least from my great grandmother). My great 
      grandmother ran a large building supply bussiness in Poland.
      And when my grandmother took over the bussiness she added 
      the buying and selling of scrap metal by the ton to the 
      bussiness. (It did very well until the natzis took
      it over!!). My mother has always worked (in advertising)
      in New York, and at the age of 69 she has no inention of 
      retiring..
      
      It is true that (I think 50% of) Jewish men marry 
      non-Jewish women...and so there must be a strong
      underlying hatred which is not being addressed...
      and this JAP bussiness is part of it, and to which 
      I want to yell: DON'T SELL YOUR WOMEN TO THE HATERS
      YOU WILL PAY WITH YOUR SOUL IN THE END..
    
      In addition I have to tell you (As a lesbian),  I wonder
      why Jewish men don't favor Jewish women)...Its truely 
      beyond me!! "poysonally" I find  Jewish women as a group, 
      so extemely appealing: with "well rounded" intellects and
      sensibilities, and phisically: individually, interstingly
      beautiful..so vy (reboinishe l'oilem) vould you vant to go 
      anywhere else!!!!!!!! It is your loss!!
    
      But Ultimately those who have been hurt, hurt others.
      (As a former person from the "generation gap" generation, 
       the co-counseling term: "Parentalism" rings true in so many
       places). And ironically it seems that most groups hurt  
      their own more than they ever hurt others. Black 
      people hurt black people more than they hurt anyone else
      (when they do hurting). This seems true of gay and lesbian
      people (who are clearly hurt by others also)...and so it
      seems that the colaboration between anit-semites and Jewish
      men as it converges in this JAP business is such a thing.
    
      It is therefore inportant to be able to make connections (!!)
      between our beliefs and how we might apply them in life... 
      and I am glad that these issues are being addressed in our
      community, as the article seems to indicate.
    
      Daniella
    

>     It is true that (I think 50% of) Jewish men marry 
>     non-Jewish women...and so there must be a strong
>     underlying hatred which is not being addressed...

The statistic I heard was 52% of marriages involving Jews are mixed. I have
been thinking about this. It seems to me that if there are 100 marriages
involving Jews there will be 52 mixed marriages and 48 unmixed. That means
that 52 Jews are married to non-Jews while 96 (48+48) are married to Jews.
In other words, "only" 35% of Jews marry non-Jews.

This is not good news but it is not quite as bad as the 52% statistic
suggests on the surface.

Dave

    When Dr. Sherry Israel of Brandeis spoke here at LKG about
    demographics, she stated that the endogamy (marriage out) rate is
    actually lower for Jews than for other groups in America.  Endogamy has
    risen sharply for all American groups in recent years.
    
    But let us not diverge to the endogamy topic.  The pain caused by
    Jewish men - or women - who scream "JAP" still remains.
    
    It just ain't funny.  
    
    L
    

I have always been fascinated by humor and have come to the conclusion

that  almost  always  something  that  makes  us  laugh first produces

tension.



For example one  scene  that  Charley  Chaplin  filmed  portrayed  him

shaving  on  a  train.   The  train  is  lurching and you fear he will

disfigure himself.  Finally he puts the razor  away  turns  and  bumps

into  the  door  as  someone  opens  it behind him.  The audience went

crazy.  Why?  It was a way to  relieve  the  tension  created  moments

earlier.



A JAP joke would not be funny if it did not produce tension and  there

were  not  an  element  of  truth  in it somewhere.  Because there are

elements of truth there should be no reason to censor the 'art' form.



However, when humor becomes violent and degrading I think  one  should

worry  more  about  the environment that permits and encourages it and

fix the environment as soon as possible.  Don't worry about the  jokes

themselves  they  are just an early warning device a means to call our

attention to more serious problems.

    re .4
    
    If "White" is to mean anything, it has to mean a set of skin
    and hair colors--by that metric, many Jews are White, and there's
    no question of "passing".  If you want to talk about Jews "passing"
    you have to use a religious or ethnic categorization, not a
    psuedo-racial one.  Race, as you should know, is a weak concept;
    it's more a mental shorthand for social categorization than a 
    physical reality, due to the large amount of inter-breeding over
    human history.  In any case, I don't think it's "passing" to not
    announce one's religion on every social or business encounter.
    
    I am personally opposed to the concept of a "protected minority".
    It very easily becomes a disadvantaged minority (remember those
    laws which were meant to protect woman from working too hard but
    had the effect of making many jobs unavailable to them?), and is
    in any case unjust to the non-minority: if A is protected and B
    is not, is that fair?
    
    Think of what you are really asking for: the re-ghettoization of
    the Jews.  That would make JAP jokes look like no problem at all.
    
    		-John Bishop

    re: JAP and other ethnic "jokes"
    
    The posting in .0 was interesting to say the least.  I like to know why
    people do the things they do and the theory put forth in .0 made sense
    to me (I personally don't want to distance myself from my varied heritage,
    but I understand that some do/might, and .0 gives an interesting
    perspective on why that may be).
    
    However, these "jokes" aren't funny.  As soon as I hear someone start
    with "so there were these two <>" (fill in the ethnic blank), I say "no
    thanks".  If they persist, they get my sermon ;-)
    
    There's a point at which a comical observation about us funny humans
    (of all kinds) becomes vitriol.  The line isn't always clear but as
    they say, "I know it when I hear it".  Perhaps a broad-brush example 
    might be that Jerry Seinfeld's comedy usually falls in the "observational"
    category and Don Rickle's usually falls into the "vitriolic"
    category.  That's my own observation - your mileage may vary.
    
    Thanks for posting the article, Laura.
    
    As for the protected minority status that's been discussed in this
    string:  I work in the US Third Party Business & Acquisition group and
    where a part of our function includes purchasing, we have to follow US
    regulations regarding Small/Disadvantaged Business quotas.  New to my
    knowledge this year was the addition of Chassidic Jews as a protected
    minority class.  This came up in a presentation given to us by the US
    Third Party coordinator for Small/Disadvantaged Business.
    
    FWIW,
    
    Steve

    To all who replied to my .1 -
    
    I must reiterate that giving preference to any group is as indefensible
    as discriminating against any group. It's that simple, and arguements
    to the contrary are just noise.
    
    In my case, the position I sought with the government was that of
    safety inspector. That the government is hiring safety inspectors by
    sex and minority classification goes beyond discrimination against
    politically incorrect people; it threatens the well being of the entire
    population.
    
    Am I the only one who believes this is just wrong? And if it is
    "right," then why can't Jews get special treatment as a legitimate
    minority? The government's position that some minorities, including
    Jews and Asians, don't qualify for minority preferences because they
    have succeeded despite prejudice is also indefensible.
    
    I worry a lot about how much worse this is likely to get now that a
    Democrat has won the White House. 
    
    ken