Conference taveng::bagels

>  1.  What are the drawbacks (benefits)?
For drawbacks, see #2.

>  2.  How are the kids brought up (confused)?
I have seen mixed marriage families where the father was Jewish and the
children were brought up Christian. I have seen families where the mother
was Jewish and the children were brought up Jewish. I know of one instance
where the Jewish father died of cancer at an early age and his family
converted to Judaism (I guess) according to his death-bed wishes.

Sometimes I hear the child say "I have Christmas AND Hannukah." Personally,
I feel the child has neither. How can a Jewish parent teach his/her children
that Jewish values are important while violating such a basic principle as
non-intermarriage.

>  3.  What happens if one/both spouses become more religious/observant?
One spouse becoming more observant can be a problem even when both are Jewish.

>  4.  What about conversion?
A favorite expression at our Temple: "You are a convert? That's funny -- you
don't *look* non-Jewish!" Conversion is not for everyone. Our rabbi once
mentioned that our membership included a rabbi, a minister, and a priest!
In the cases I know about, conversion has worked well.

>  5.  Are the spouses comfortable with their differences?
They better be or the marriage is in trouble.

>  6.  Can they ever trust each other completely?
Ditto.

>  7.  Is there an unfulfilled yidishkeit void left in Jewish halves?
My uncle was intermarried. His big dissapointment in life was that neither
of my cousins chose Judaism.

>  8.  Anything else related to the topic, that you can contribute.
I have to start worrying about my own kids even though my wife is also Jewish.
They have been taught to resist all kinds of prejudice but they seem to feel
that rejecting all but Jewish potential spouses is a form of prejudice.
I've got my work cut out for me. I don't see how a mixed marriage family
can avoid having the children be completely assimilated.

Dave
 

    Dear Jake,
    
    Behind your questions I hear sadness.  You know well all the arguments
    against intermarriage, so I need not rehash them.  Sometimes it works
    (from the Jewish point of view), but more often it does not.
    
    Finding a Jewish spouse is often difficult, especially when you have
    relocated to a non-urban area.  Yes, the local young Jews may often be
    as you say "cliquey and JAPpy".  I faced the same difficulties when I
    relocated to New Hampshire from New Jersey.  In these circumstances,
    one must set one's mind to seeking out a Jewish spouse through any
    available channel.  Here's what I did:
    
     * Allocated at least one if not two leisure time chunks per week - an
       evening or half of a weekend day - to attending singles functions or
       dating.  Forced myself to go even when I didn't want to.
    
     * Was totally clear about my desire to find a spouse.  This was the
       purpose in dating.  While it was tempting to settle for a boyfriend
       (who might not be marriageable for one reason or another), I 
       resisted this temptation.  I didn't date after the point when I
       determined they were not for me - at most 4 times, I recall.
    
       I was surprised that many men were on the same track.  A substantial
       number were also looking for a spouse and did not want to waste
       time with incompatible women.
     
     * Set myself a time period in which to find a spouse - one year.
       Gave myself permission to reevaluate my focus at that time, to
       either continue looking or to give up.
    
     * Used the dating process to figure out what I really wanted in a
       man.
    
     * Tried all available channels - singles groups, blind dates, and
       Jewish singles newspapers.  I was willing to consider a dating
       service but didn't get that far.  I had good experiences from
       placing an ad in a Jewish single's paper.  I avoided general
       singles papers and events - like finding a needle in a haystack.
       But I would have been open to a large dating service that could
       match Jews.
    
     * Put a priority on local people, since I had very recently relocated
       for my job and didn't want to move again, but remained somewhat open
       to non-local people.
    
     * Didn't waste time trying to penetrate the local cliques - a nearly 
       impossible task which is emotionally draining.  There were enough 
       available men outside the cliques.  
    
    After 6 months I met my husband.  Things have worked out pretty well. 
    It's no picture-book romance, but I do feel we are compatible and we
    love each other a lot.  Having Judaism in common has helped bond us
    through some very trying times.  It's true what your parents and
    teachers said, that life and marriage is hard enough without adding
    religious differences to the mixture.  At least when times are tough we
    can have a little Shabbat ritual at home, give some tzedakah, and hang
    in there together.  And our families are very supportive.  We share the
    same moral values and little habits like big Sunday morning breakfasts.
    
    We have a little daughter who is our joy and delight.  We were so proud
    to name her in synagogue.  She has Jewish books and toys, hears Jewish
    songs, and we are very united in the way we are raising her.
    
    I cannot urge you strongly enough to gather your inner strength and
    conviction, to not despair, and to do what you know is right in this
    all-important decision.
    
    Please feel free to contact me through MAIL if you wish.  I offer that
    to all singles.  I know how difficult it is, having looked for many
    years before I found my husband.
    
    Laura

    Thank you for repplies.  
    
    Laura, you are right - I am sad.  But my saddness is not so much for
    myself, but rather for the Jewish people as a whole.  I am also sad to
    see the types of people I would consider myself generally compatible with,
    deciding that they can't find anything for themselves within the Jewish
    circles, and associating with almost entirely non Jews.  Under such
    circumstances, these people are almost impossible to identify, from the
    entire grey mass.
    
    This is exactly what happened to my cousin, a gorgeous twenty one year
    old girl, who just got engaged to a Muslim Iranian guy.  She made sure by
    who she associated with, that no Jewish guy would ever find her.  I have
    another cousin, a very pretty and incredably smart twenty year old, who
    just told me that chances of her ending up with a Jewish guy are close to
    nill (hopefully she will like my Jewish friend.)  Her friend (a very nice
    girl) is getting engaged to a Jewish guy, but she told me that this was
    entirely by accident (this is the only Jewish guy she dated, after she
    broke up with her original Jewish jerk.)  Please understand that this is
    but a small sample of the cases of "Jews against JAPs, cliques and
    jerks."  These people also represent a large geographical area (Atlanta,
    Toronto, Denver.)
    
    Things are not that great "Jewishly" anywhere, it seems.  It looks like
    you either become one of "the united JAPs", or you become "Orthodox", or
    you assimilate?  Personally, I don't like any of the above choices, but I
    don't see any other choices either.  You just don't meet too many nice
    Jewish girls, from the shtetl next door, anymore.
    
    Also you mentioned that Jewish singles events may be a usefull tool. 
    Of course there is a small chance of finding a normal Jewish person in
    an abnormal singles group, but remember, that I don't live on either of
    the coasts.  In Colorado there is a grand total of maybe one singles
    event a year that will draw over 30 young Jewish singles.  With
    statistics like that, well you know what I mean...
    
    Desperately seeking ...
                           
    
    
                                           ...  to preserve my identity,
    
    Jake
    

	Jake,

	You have a valid reason to question where things are going.  It seems
that in these days, one's religious beliefs are taking more and more of a "back
seat" to the other aspects of life.  As a result, couples are looking more for
compatibility in the work they do, the entertainment they enjoy, even the food
they eat or the political parties they ascribe to.  The good news is that, as a
result, these other aspects of life (and marriage) can tend to be strengthened;
the bad news is that the spiritual side of a relationship is often being totally
ignored.

	I think this is happening both overtly and subtly.  By "subtly", I just
mean that a lot of people (many of whom may not appreciate the value of their
spiritual lives) will seek compatibility only at a superficial level:  "Gee,
you're monotheistic?  So am I!  Close enough!"   I don't mean that to sound
cavalier; as someone noted in an earlier reply, I am seeing a lot more of the
interlacing of Judaism, Islam, and Christianity.

	To a certain degree, I sometimes think we *need* a bit more 
ecumenisicm -- in the sense of openness and acceptance of others -- but not when
it serves to weaken our faith.  Throughout history, when God was the most
judgemental of Israel, it was when they turned away from their monotheism, and
began intermarrying and worshipping the gods of the Canaanites, the Phillistines,
and others.

	One of the issues you raised, and clearly one of the most important, was
that of children -- how to raise them, what to teach them, etc.  There are many
today -- individuals, as well as entire religious sects -- who believe that it is
more important to *not* influence children with your own beliefs, but to teach
them to learn to think for themselves -- to form their own conclusions, etc.
Pardon my subtleness here, but that's bull hockey!  It's a cop-out.

	It's a way of saying "I don't have the courage of my convictions; I'm not
even sure *what* I believe.  So I'll just let my child wander aimlessly, and
settle on whatever they feel comfortable with."  I'm not sure I can find anywhere
in scripture that tells us that God intends us to "feel comfortable with" our
religion.  At times it *has* to stir us; it *has* to bother us.  This is one of
the primary forces that creates that intangible thing called "conscience".  If
we all simply find whatever we're comfortable with -- that is, the only authority
is ourselves... some kind of transcendental mysticism -- things such as 
conscience will be a thing of the past.

	The book of Proverbs instructs us to "...train up a child in the way he
should go, so that when he is old, he will not depart from it..."  That can be
increasingly difficult to do if the two primary care-givers in those early stages
of that child's development do not agree on fundamental spiritual principles.

	Sorry if this seems a little harsh.  But despite what today's 
psychologists say about the primary marriage problems being financial and/or
sexual, I think they're overlooking a *big* area -- spiritual.  Not just that
differences of opinion on religion may cause overt problems in a marriage --
that's the side that psychologists will look at, and that's the side that we can
sometimes "patch up" and make to look "not so bad"; but it's the other aspect --
think how that marriage could be *strengthened* -- think how those *other*
problems, whether they *are* financial or sexual or whatever, might be resolved
if there was more of an emphasis on the spiritual, more of a mutual support and
encouragement at *that* level.

	F

    My husband is not Jewish.  We have no kids.  He has promised that if we
    have children they will be raised Jewish.  We did have a Jewish
    wedding.  Still, he is not a Jewish person.  We try to attend each
    other's religious events.  This year we went to a sedar and we also
    went to Easter Mass.  I feel bad doing the later, but for now I dont
    want him feeling like only my religion means anything.  He does get a
    lot of the Jewish culture thrown at him since we are closer to my
    family than to his, and my family is very jewish culturally.  Every
    Holiday season we go down to Florida.  My parents have some non-Jewish
    friends so we go to their house for Xmas dinner/party.  At the same
    time most of the other friends and relatives of my parents are jewish
    and the culture runs wil d( i.e. speaking yiddish, playing jackie mason
    tapes, etc).  I sometimes feel uncomfortable having a non-jewish
    husband around this, but he seems to do fine.  I also must admit that
    it is hard to have to explain everything to him and always have to ask
    if he will attend a religious event with me.  At the high holidays he
    will only go to temple on a weekend, and I usually only ask him to
    attend evening services.  I dont find it easy to sit  throught  the day
    services and I dont want ask  him to do the same.  With Jewish social
    events he is pretty good, but sometimes the others dont realize that he
    is not jewish and will make a comment that will sit the wrong way with
    him.
    	Overall things are going OK now.  I do wish that I could have found
    a Jewish husband, but after dating for quite some time, I felt it was
    more important to find a "good" husband, than to having "has to be
    jewish" as a criteria.  I did date a few jewish guys and many turned
    out to be jerks.  WE will see when the kids come what will happen.  I
    know that the promise he made will be real tough, especially if we have
    a boy.  It will definately add some stress, but only time will tell.

Hi Jake,
I would like to give you my opinion,even if maybe it doesn't answer really to 
your questions.I hope you will forgive me for this.
I am the daughter of a mixed marriage;my father was a Polish Jew and my mother
an Italian Catholic.
They made a secret marriage in 1943 (mixed marriage were forbidden by the 
fascist law at that time) and they risked their life for it.
They married of course because they love each other,but also,expecially my 
mother,to do some act against the "law of the defence of race" that she thought
horrible and against her moral.
Due to this you can understand that I am very proud of my mixed origins.
Apart from this I think that I have been very lucky to have been part of two 
worlds since my early years;the environnement in which I was grown was mostly 
Catholic by tradition,even if not religious,and I felt very privilegied,
compared to my friends,to have the possibility of knowing the Jewish culture 
and the Jewish world to which I had a strong affinity.
So I have never felt confused,when I was a child,at least for what I can 
remember.I was the only student in my class in the public school to do not 
attend the religion lessons,but this was not a problem for me (maybe because 
religion has not in Italy a big social importance.Probably in the States is 
different). 
I received from my family no religious education;only during very important 
hollidays we went to the Temple or to the Church,but more as an act of respect 
to a tradition than as act with a religious meaning.
This does not means that I was abandoned to myself to find my way alone (as 
reply n. 4 seems to tell that it happens in similar cases)
I received from my family some very basic and strong moral imperatives which 
where,and still are,the base of my life,like : to always search justice,to be 
honest,to help other people,to do not accept compromise with your conscience and
so on....These are moral imperatives that I find almost always when I read 
Jewish writers,independently from the fact that the author is religious or not.
This is my experience.You can see that I am very positive towards some kind
of intermarriages.But you must consider that I am not religious;maybe if I was 
religious,things would have been more complicated.
A last note;if I should have to tell what I feel to be now,I would say that I 
feel Italian and Jew.I believe that Judaism is something special and different 
from other religions;while for other religions (at least for the Catholic 
religion,I don't know the other),to be religious means that you are 
Catholic,to be not religious means that you are not Catholic,for Judaism (or 
Hebraism - which is the correct word to use?) I think that this is different.
You can be not religious,and still to be (or to think to be),like in my case,a 
Jew.
It is something that I feel very deeply,even if I cannot explain it very 
well;it is the consciousness of being part of a people,of its moral and 
cultural roots which survived intact through thousands of years,of his history 
of persecutions and miraculous survival.
That is the reason why I cannot share the fear that I feel in your words that 
with intermarriages in general the Jewish heritage get lost.
Maybe do I miss something?
Donatella

    Re: .6
    
    You may "feel" Jewish all you want, but you will never be Jewish,
    unless you convert.  So how can you be comfortable with that?  How can
    you "feel" like you belong?
    
    Puzzled,
    Jake
    

    My mother's mother was from a family practicing some kind of 
    Protestant Christianity, but she decided she didn't believe 
    as a young woman.
    
    My mother's father was a Jew from Lithuania whose family
    came to the US about 1900.  He was a non-believer as well.
    
    Their children were raised as secular, quasi-socialist Americans
    of the upper middle class ("upper" because my grandfather had
    a good job during the depression).  My mother was therefore raised
    as a non-believer and a non-Jew (as well as a non-Christian).
    
    She married a WASP-y atheist (who later became a Catholic, but
    that's a different story). 
    
    Despite all this distance, I and my brothers still feel a certain
    connection to Judaism and Israel.  For example, this is the reason
    I started reading Bagels!
    
    		-John Bishop

A former member of our Sudbury temple, Howard Cooper, took a trip around
the world visiting Jews in obscure places and actually met with one of the
Chinese Jews. The man was physically indistinguishable from any other ethnic
Chinese (do I hear the echos of a "funny, you don't look Jewish" joke?).
He spoke no English and Howard spoke no Chinese. Howard showed him some Jewish
things he was carrying (a Chanukkah menorah, for example). The Chinese man
knew nothing of those things. It was clear the only thing he knew was that
he was descended from Jews. There is something very strong about this
connection.

Dave

Re .7
I believe there is a misunderstanding of my answer,probably due to how I did 
express it.
I know that "to feel" is different from "to be",and this is the reason 
why I told that I "feel to be a Jew" and not that "I am a Jew".
By this unhappy phrase I merely wanted to point out that in a case of a mixed 
marriage the Jewish heritage,which is not only religious,but also cultural and
I would say "national",is not completely lost.
I think that here we go into the big topic of "Who is a Jew".
It did took me sometime to trace down and read all the discussions about this 
subject in this conference.I cannot speak of the religious side of it,because I
am not religious (if I understand correctly,if your mother is a Jew you are 
such by birth,in the opposite case you are not automatically a Jew.Sometimes in
the past it has been the opposite).

I would like only to use some examples,taken from my family and from my 
readings.
- First example my oncle (my father's brother).
  He was a very idealistic person.Much before the war and the german 
  persecutions against Jews,he stopped his studies at the University to go 
  to Palestina.He was imprisonned by the English,he fighted for the creation 
  of the state of Israel where he lived for all of its life.
  He was not religious at all.When he went to Italy to visit us,he did not 
  observe the shabbat,he did not eat kosher and so on.
- Second example my father.He was not as much idealistic as my uncle so he did 
  not immigrate to Palestina before the war or to Israel later.
  He was not religious too and he did not respect any prescription of the Jewish
  religion.But even with these limits he had a strong feeling of its Jewish 
  identity;he spent almost all its free time reading books around Israel or 
  books of Jewish writers.
- Third example Primo Levi.
  He is an Italian Jew who survived to Auschwitz and wrote several books;many of
  his book have been traslated into English,so I include the references in my 
  quotes to allow you to find a better translation than mine,if you like.
  From the book "Echi di una voce perduta",a portrait of him based on interviews
  and speeches that he gave during his life,I quote the following from the 
  chapter on Hebraism.
  "I became a Jew in Auschwitz,before I did not feel to be such.The awareness of
   feeling "different" was imposed to me.Somebody,without any reason in the 
   world,established that I was a different and inferior being;for natural 
   reaction I felt during those years to be a different and superior being.
   Now it doesn't matter any more.But in this case Auschwitz gave me something,
   which lasted.By giving me the feeling to be a Jew it urged me to retrieve,
   after,a cultural inheritance that I did not possess before."
  "I am a Jew for the registry office,it means that I have entered my name into
   the Jewish Community of Turin,but I am not a practising Jew and I am not 
   even a believer.I am nevertheless conscious of being part of a tradition and
   of a culture.I am used to say to feel to be Italian for three forth or four
   fifth,depending on moments,but that remaining portion is for me very 
   important."
  "I am not a believer,I have never been;I would like to be,but I am not able to
   do it.....There is Auschwitz,so there cannot be a G*d.I don't find a solution
   to this dilemma.I am looking for it,but I cannot find it."
  "I am not a believer.I wasn't before Auschwitz and the Lager's experience 
   confirmed me in this not religiousness,though I noticed then that every 
   believer,wether Jewish or catholic,had much more possibilities to survive
   because after all he had the answers that we did lack."
  From the book "I sommersi e i salvati",a series of essays on concentration 
  camps,I quote the following from the chapter on the intellectuals :
  "As Amery,I too entered in the Lager as a not believer and as not believer I 
   was set free and I have been living till now;and even the Lager's experience,
   in its dreadfull iniquity,confirmed myself in my laicality.It prevented me,
   and still prevents,from believing in any trascendental providence or justice:
   why the dyings in the cattle wagons?why the children killed by gas?..."
- Last example my mother.She Catholic,she is not observant and she inherited 
  from her father the indignation against the persecutions of Jews (the Dreyfuss
  process and the pogroms in Russia struck my grand father particularly).She 
  also,from her readings,acquired a strong admiration for the Jewish culture
  and my attitude towards Hebraism comes more from her than from my father.

My conclusions (from a secular point of view):
I cannot agree when the problem of intermarriage is simply described as a 
loss of Jewish identity,even if maybe this happens more frequently.
The correct answer should be:why does it happens?What to do to avoid this loss?

Coming back to religion,as I don't know it,I would like if somebody can explain
how the Jewish religion sees intermarriages.
Are they formally forbidden?In which book?Which are the reasons?
Is there one unique position,or there are more?......
Many thanks for the inputs
Donatella

	Donatella,

	Actually, I think you've probably answered some of Jake's (and possibly
others') confusion when you said:

	From .6
� But you must consider that I am not religious;maybe if I was 
� religious,things would have been more complicated.

	From .9
� Coming back to religion,as I don't know it...

	What I'm reading in your description is more of a "social" religion --
a consciousness of what I believe you called "moral values", among other things.
That's all well and good; but for me that wouldn't equate to a basic religious
belief.  When you admit that you are "not religious", perhaps you *are* looking
at this situation (as I described in another note) more along the lines of
choosing a sports team, or a political party -- namely, that all sides are valid,
and I might even compromise my own beliefs for some other "greater" purpose,
because it's not that important.

	However, from my own experience, it is only when these "religious
beliefs" become so personal -- so integral, so important -- that one even
*begins* to understand some of the conflicts, the problems, the situations that
can be involved.

	Believe me -- I am not belittling accepting a "religion" for its "moral
values" or other precepts.  But when that's *all* it is, it may turn out to be
no more than secular humanism.  I sometimes picture this as a "horizontal" 
religion -- my full attention is to my peers, those around me, the world I live
in, the moral situations in which I find myself, etc.  All of that is well and
good; but it lacks something.

	It lacks what I would call a "vertical" religion -- an acknowledgement of
a God who is sovereign.  A God who *makes* the "rules".  One who must be an
uncompromisable part of our lives.  "Hear, o Israel, the Lord our God is One."

	F

    I feel uncomfortable with the drift of some of the replies to
    Donatella.  They invalidate her experience.
    
    Yes, for Jewish legal purposes, the child of a gentile mother is not a
    Jew.  This child may not receive aliyah, may not make a Jewish
    marriage, and may not serve as a witness in some situations.
    
    But to use this legal definition to minimize Donatella's personal
    sense of self is unfair.
    
    Many children of mixed marriages in which the mother is gentile, may
    eventually complete formal conversion in order to marry and fully
    participate according to law.
    
    However, even those who do not convert still bring the richness of
    their experience and perceptions to the broad body of the Jewish
    people.  We are the losers if we bar the gates.
    
    I also feel it is unfair to invalidate Donatella's statements because
    she is not religious.  If her mother were Jewish, would we hold this
    against her?  How many children of pure Jewish background are not
    religious today?  Probably the majority.  
    
    It is not for us to judge our fellow.  This is G-d's prerogative.

    I hate to admit it, but you are right.  I do appreciate Donatella's
    point of view, and enjoyed reading her replies.  BTW, I am by no means
    religious.  I just seem to feel a bigger attachment to Judaism, then
    most other (non-orthodox?) Jews my age.  I too, have a difficult to
    explain feeling inside me that makes me Jewish.  So Donatella is not so
    difficult to understand, I just wanted to make sure she understood, that
    for her to trully "be" Jewish, she would have to convert.  I was also
    wondering about how deep her feelings for Judaism could be, if she was
    not really Jewish, but only had Jewish blood.  Is it not true, that
    some of the biggest "Jew haters" have infact had Jewish blood?  And if
    so, than how can the difference between these people's point of view,
    and Donatella's be explained.  Perhaps there is something that can be
    done that would at least make the children of a mixed marrige more
    likely to have an appreciation for the Jewish religion, rather than a
    feeling of hate towards all Jews?!
    
    Also, I don't like all the splinter groups within Judaism.  After all a
    Jew is a Jew (or isn't he/she?)  Just because somebody doesn't practice
    Judaism 100%, why set up a new form of the religion.  Just do the best
    you can, go to the shul as often as you can and try to improve
    yourself.  Isn't that what Judaism is all about?  I heard that some
    "Orthodox" Moscow Jews burned up a new reform-conservative temple that
    was organizing in town.  The Torah Got burned up pretty bad.  What an
    outrage.  This supposedly was on the Russian TV.  Has anybody else
    heard anything about this?  (I guess I got off the subject a bit here;
    maybe I should have started a new note on this, but this latest
    development, if it really happened, got me a bit outraged.)
    

>                                                               I was also
>    wondering about how deep her feelings for Judaism could be, if she was
>    not really Jewish, but only had Jewish blood.  
    
    I wonder why you think that a person with a Jewish heritage could 
    be suspect in their feelings? 
    
>                                                Is it not true, that
>    some of the biggest "Jew haters" have infact had Jewish blood?  And if
>    so, than how can the difference between these people's point of view,
>    and Donatella's be explained.  
    
    I'm sorry to say that I find your train of thought simplistic and 
    offensive.  Your first statement is unsubstantiated and a question. 
    From this you compare  "Jew haters" and Donatella. What did Donatella
    do to deserve such treatement? 
    
>    Also, I don't like all the splinter groups within Judaism.  After all a
>    Jew is a Jew (or isn't he/she?) 
    
    This is the ideal but unfortunately not the case. 
    
    >    Judaism 100%, why set up a new form of the religion.  
    
    Very often to answer problems caused due to the above situation.
    
    > Just do the best
>    you can, go to the shul as often as you can and try to improve
>    yourself.  Isn't that what Judaism is all about?  
    
    Judaism is about doing Mitzvot (commandments), some of which are in the
    shul (or where a group of 10 men in a minyan can be formed) and many 
    others are not. Judaism is also about a belief, heritage, destiny,
    culture, simcha (joy) and times of sadness. 
    
    Malcolm 
    
         

	Laura (et al.),

	I certainly didn't mean to offend in any of what I said.  I think,
though, that .12, .13, and .14 are talking about something a little different
than the point I was making.

	I was presenting the idea of priorities.  Stripping down all of the rest
of the discussion, I was attempting to focus on two issues (and apparently not
doing a very good job of it!):  marriage (i.e., commitment to one's partner), and
"religion", or personal faith (i.e., commitment to God).  My point about
priorities is that the latter should be more important.  And if we "compromise"
on one for the sake of the other, then that pretty much defines our priorities --
we are saying that the "compromised" one is not as important.

	That was my the basis for my comment about someone who would convert
faiths, only for the sake of the marriage, if in their own heart they were not
dedicated to that change.  To me, it would be saying that God takes a lesser
place in my life than my spouse.

	As far as the comments about being religious, or not being religious, I
think I was more confused than anything.  In my own mind, to convert to something
-- to *anything*, whether a religion, a philosophy, a school of scientific
thought, a political party, etc. -- means to espouse that new idea.  To support
it, to believe in it... not just to do it "for show".  How, then, can someone
speak of "converting" to a religion and follow that by saying they are not
religious?  As Malcolm correctly pointed out:

� Judaism is about doing Mitzvot (commandments)

	It seems a contradiction to identify with a "name", but not with the
attitudes and actions associated with that name, nu?

	F

.12>    It is not for us to judge our fellow.  This is G-d's prerogative.

No one here is denying Donatella the right to her background and her feelings
about it.  The only "judgment" that I can see is that she is not Jewish.  And I
don't see that as being any worse than someone telling me that I'm not six feet
tall.  Why should either of these judgments be exclusively God's to make?

    The fact that a child of a gentile woman is not legally a Jew can be
    plainly stated as such.  I don't have a problem with anyone pointing
    this out.  I think most children of mixed marriages can cope with this
    emotionally.  Certainly gentiles who are drawn to Judaism, deal with it
    every day.  
    
    My problem was that I sensed an extra load of emotion and judgement
    added to this simple fact.  In our efforts to discourage intermarriage,
    we must be careful not to discourage sincere converts, nor to
    stigmatize, exclude or blame the children of intermarriage.  A non-Jew
    can study, pray in an existing minyan, pray privately, and practice
    mitzvot.  Many will eventually convert.
    
    Who is a sincere convert?  Ultimately only G-d knows.  And people's
    level of enthusiasm, belief, and participation varies over time.  While
    it may be fairly low around the time of a pre-marriage conversion, this
    may change.  Anyway, the converting rabbis must make this
    determination.  I am sure they give it a great deal of thought.  The
    standards are pretty high in all denominations.
    
    I am more concerned to be inclusive rather than exclusive, particularly
    in the diaspora.  What is the worst thing that can happen if a spouse
    insincerely converts?  As a community we can say we tried, and it just
    didn't work out.  We would have lost the Jewish partner anyway.  
    
    It is heartening to remember all the times when it DOES work out.  For
    example, my close friend Sue converted some years after marrying Joel. 
    She is now more observant and committed than he.  And consider those
    who convert as a matter of belief, and not for marriage.  Many of them
    are great stalwarts.  I know several who are in process, and they are
    greatly committed.
    
    I think this world needs more light, and even those bearing a small
    candle contribute their share.  In our efforts to control, we should
    sometimes pull back and let the light shine.
    

    re .16 (Eric)
    
>No one here is denying Donatella the right to her background and her feelings
    
>      The only "judgment" that I can see is that she is not Jewish.  And I
>don't see that as being any worse than someone telling me that I'm not six feet
>tall.  Why should either of these judgments be exclusively God's to make?
    
    re .10 (Donatella)
    
>Coming back to religion,as I don't know it,I would like if somebody can explain
>how the Jewish religion sees intermarriages.
>Are they formally forbidden?In which book?Which are the reasons?
>Is there one unique position,or there are more?......
>Many thanks for the inputs

    
    If we could answer Donatella's original question, I think Eric's 
    question might look more like an answer. 
    
    Malcolm 

    RE: .18  What?
             I missed that entirely!
    RE: .14  This is what I would call "taking things out of their context
    and adding your own interpritation to my words."  I was simply asking
    how was it that Donatella turned out so positive, and how can we make
    sure that others coming from similar backgrounds turn out similar to
    her, rather than become individuals harboring anti-Jewish feelings (which I
    believe to be the more common situation.)  The question mark indicated
    that I wanted to hear other people's opinions on the subject of some
    antisemites actually having Jewish blood.
    
    To Mr. F. Nicodem:   See my reply to the Note titled "A question about
    intermarriage" (or something like that, a few notes after this one.)
    

Thanks for the replies and sorry for the delay of my answers.I need always some 
time to express my thoughts from the complex and rich Italian language
in the concise and poor (because of my ignorance) English language.

reply .11
(Sorry for going somehow out of the main subject of this topic,which is 
intermarriage)
Frank,
I understand that religion is different from a merely a secular moral position,
because it has a sense of trascendent,or mysticism that you can find only in 
religion.So in this sense I can agree with your statement.
Where I do not agree are two points.
First the gratuitous assumption that you make that moral beliefs can be less 
strong and more subject to compromise than religious beliefs (do you really 
think that the search and choice of a moral law is similar to the choice of a 
sport team???)
Believe me,in my experience I see often the opposite:the religion is something 
that you receive from very young age,that you don't discuss and that is very 
easily subject to compromise (at least the Catholic religion in Italy is such 
for most of people and that is the reason why I don't like it),while if you 
had moral laws to conduct your life,you had to search and choose for them and 
this make them much more meaningful and important to you.
Apart from these two attitudes you can find the grey area of people who has no 
religion,no moral laws;maybe in your answer you did refer to them.
Second point is the low importance that I understand in your words towards what 
you call "secular humanism".
I am very suspicious of religion without humanism because it can easily lead
people to be intolerant towards its brother's choices,which can be different,
but not necessarily opposite.Thousands of people have been killed 
in the name of religion (and mostly often they were Jews) and I think that we 
should be very careful to avoid to create again the same mental attitudes.
I hope that you understand that this is not a criticism to you as a person,but 
to a mental attitude which is often present in discussions about religion.
After having made this distinction,I easily admit that I have only admiration 
and also some envy towards people who has this special relation with G*d.
Take the example of Hetty Hillesum.She is a Jew from Holland and she is a 
mystic.She discovered and constructed her special relation with G*d during 
terrible times for the Jewish people (her diary covers the years 1941-1943),when
many other have lost their faith.
But she chose to live her discovery of the new relation with G*d with her 
suffering brothers.She asked to go to Westerbork,the gathering camp in Holland 
before deportations.She chose to go to Auschwitz,where she died less than three 
months later,even if she could be saved.And every time,helping her brothers and 
trying to do the best she could do,she was confronting her experience with 
herself and with G*d.
Another example is David Maria Turoldo.He is an Italian Catholic friar who died 
recently.He was deeply religious,but he never forgot to look towards this world
(he has been also very active during the Resistance).
He has been always fighting with himself,with his faith and with G*d (this 
sounds very Jewish,isn't it?)to confirm the faith in spite of all the horrible 
things happening around.(It has been for long time near to be expulsed from the
Curch,who doesn't like doubt,for its non-ortodox position,but at last this did 
not happen).

I translate here for you to poetries from him.

From the book "Il grande male":

ONLY WORDS

Only words,Pope,
words,and opposite
the irretrievable loss
of the Word.

The churches,an uproar
the men always
more alone 
and useless

And the sky is empty:
G*d still more than dead
Absent


From the book "Canti ultimi":

BEYOND THE FOREST

Brother atheist,nobly thoughtfull,
in search of a G*d that I cannot give you,
let cross toghether the desert.

Let's go from desert to desert
beyond the forest of faiths
free and naked towards
	the naked Being
	and there
where the Word dies
should come to end our way.

Reply .12/.17

Thanks Laura for your replies.
As usual,I totally agree with you and I am warmed from the sense of tolerance
and respect for the other that I like so much in the Jewish culture.

Reply .13/.14/.19

Thanks Malcom for your defence,but really I don't think that Jake (Evgheny?)
wanted to offense me (as he correctly pointed out in its later reply).
He only was wondering how it can happen that some people with Jewish blood can 
be "Jews haters",while others like me are "Jews lovers",and he was asking how 
to avoid the first case.
My opinion on the cause.
For people with Jewish blood it is not possible to be indifferent or to forget 
it.We still live in a world which is,more or less depending on the countries,
anti-semitic.So the least thing that can happen to you is to face
stupid jokes,prejudices and so on.You can fight against it,or can can do nothing
or maybe also you can hide your Jewish blood.I think that in every case you 
take a position,which is in the last two cases the position to betray your 
people and to deny a part of you.
I think it should be terrible to live with this feeling,even if unconscious.
So,by a very common process,the guilty person hate what he,in its distorted
way of thinking,identifies with the cause of its problems (if the Jews didn't
exists,he would't have any problem...) and he tries to reduce his sense of 
guilt by reducing the value of the people that he abandoned.
What can be the solution?
By my opinion the only solution is to create very soon and as much as possible,
in the child of a mixed marriage,a broad consciusness of the vast and rich 
heritage of the Jewish world,which is not only religious (as my mother did with 
me).
I don't say "not only religious" to lower religion (I am only starting now to 
unsterstand how rich the Jewish religion can be).I said it because to start 
from religion may sometimes put in place some insuperable barriers between 
people.

Last question (excuse me for this very long reply)
I really would like to know which is the religious position on intermarriages.
From this note and also from indirect quotes in other books,I understand that 
intermarriage it is not appreciated,while from my experience (my father's 
family or Jew friends) I did not realize it.
What I don't understand is if intermarriage it is a subject of discussion,
with possibly different positions in different groups in the Jewish world,or 
if it is something clearly stated in some books (like for example the Ten 
Commandments)
In the last case you can discuss the reasons why do not intermarriage,but the 
precept is clear and stated.In the first case on the contrary,you can discuss 
if to intermarry or not.
If the answer has been already clearly given in some previous notes on the same 
topic,please do not answer again.I have already printed them out and I will 
read them carefully with time.If not,I would appreciate very much an answer.

Shalom
Donatella

re .17:

>                      What is the worst thing that can happen if a spouse
>    insincerely converts?

I believe that according to halacha, an insincere conversion is invalid.
If the invalid convert is a woman, then her children are not Jewish.

I heard of a case of a converted woman's daughter who became a baalat tshuva.
She wanted to marry certain Kohen.  When she found out that her mother's
conversion was halachically invalid, she (and her intended) were devastated.
She herself could convert, but Kohanim are forbidden from marrying converts.
Fortunately (miraculously?) everything worked out -- her maternal grandmother
(great-grandmother?) turned out to have been Jewish.

re Donatella's question:

Halacha (Jewish law) forbids intermarriage.

   Re: .21

>I heard of a case of a converted woman's daughter who became a baalat tshuva.
>She wanted to marry certain Kohen.  When she found out that her mother's
>conversion was halachically invalid, she (and her intended) were devastated.
>She herself could convert, but Kohanim are forbidden from marrying converts.
>Fortunately (miraculously?) everything worked out -- her maternal grandmother
>(great-grandmother?) turned out to have been Jewish.

   What a story! Isn't it somewhat ridiculous? We hear of the grandaughter
   of a Jewish apostate woman. Then the daugter converted back, but not 
   sincerely - in her heart she was not jewish. Then the granddaughter wants to
   marry a cohen, and even to undergo the ritual of renewed conversion - but 
   that would be to no avail, because, as a convert she would be able to marry
   a cohen. But Halas! The apostate grandmother comes to help and her having 
   been jewish -even if she rejected it- has more weight than the granddaughter
   sincerity.

   I am sorry. This is certainly kosher, but still stinks.

   This might be correct Halacha, but hardly could answer the prophet's
   question: Who asked you to step in my courtyards...but to fight the fight
   of the widow, the orphan, the convert....

   Jews are forbidden to intermarry. That is the law. The Halacha.

   Regards,

   Juan-Carlos

    Juan-Carlos,
    
    There are many reasons for a conversion to be *halachically* invalid,
    without there being one iota (yodh ? :-) of insincerity about it.

    						Ann B.

    When was intermarriage declared to be disallowed according to halacha?
    what was it based on?
    
    				Paul
    

    >When was intermarriage declared to be disallowed according to halacha?
    >what was it based on?
    
    It's based in Chumash, can't remember the exact parasha, but the
    prohibition is very clear.
    
    --David

    
Re: .25
    
    >>When was intermarriage declared to be disallowed according to halacha?
    >>what was it based on?
    
    >It's based in Chumash, can't remember the exact parasha, but the
    >prohibition is very clear.
    
    Deut. 7:3, in the context of the seven indigenous nations of
    Canaan, says:
    
    	And do not intermarry with them; give not your daughter
    	to his son, and take not his daughter for your son.
    
    Maimonides (Yad Is. Bia 12:1) says that this prohibition 
    applies not only to the nations in question, but to all
    non-Jews (see commentators ad locum for further elucidation).
    The author of the _Sefer Hachinuch_, a book which lists and
    expounds each of the 613 biblical commandments, explains
    the rationale in Precept #427 as follows. If we are
    concerned with the survival of Jewish tradition, it is obvious 
    that we must choose a spouse who shares that commitment, else
    we are fighting a losing battle.
    
    As the wisest of men put it:
    
    	Two are better than one, for they will see reward from 
    	their toil (Ecc. 4:9).
    
    Jem
    

    Re: .26
    
    Thanks, that explains it - It is from rabbinic times, well past the
    destruction of the second temple.
    
    An interesting contrast to the book of Ruth.
    
    				Paul
    

    
    Re: .27
    
    >Thanks, that explains it - It is from rabbinic times, well past the
    >destruction of the second temple.
    
    According to the sources quoted in .26, the prohibition is indeed
    biblical, not rabbinic.
    
    >An interesting contrast to the book of Ruth.
    
    Ruth was a sincere convert. What's the connection?
    
    >How many non-Jewish wives did King David have?
    
    You probably mean Solomon, who did marry the Egyptian
    Pharaoh's daughter. The commentators are split on the
    details of the marriage, some insisting that there was
    no transgression in that she converted, others stating
    that there was indeed a transgression. Either way, it has
    no bearing on the question: whether Solomon sinned or not
    does not change the law.
    
    Jem
    

�    >An interesting contrast to the book of Ruth.
    
�    Ruth was a sincere convert. What's the connection?
 

What about Orpah?

    
    Re: .30
    
    >What about Orpah?
    
    Machlon and Chilion did indeed sin in taking gentile
    wives.
    
    Trivia: Is the folk-legend about Oprah Winfrey's first name
    true?
    
    Jem
    

    Re. .28 et al
    
    I was actually thinking of Ruth's first husband, before she converted.
    Clearly the community accepts her as Jewish, and she is married off to
    a close relative or her deceased husband in accordance with Halacha.
    These days such a conversion would not be acceptable, of course, to the
    Orthodox, Conservative, or Reform movements.
    
    And I was thinking of Solomon not David (although didn't he have
    non-Jewish concubines?).
    
    				Paul