Conference taveng::bagels

.0>    Would someone please write in the Ten Commandments, as the Jewish
.0>    people received them.

The original version is in Hebrew, so even if someone types them in, your
terminal probably won't be able to display them.

I suspect that what you've noticed are differences in translation.  A good
translator tries to convey as much of the original meaning as possible, but
it's never as good as the original.

    In the Protestant version, the following Commandment is:-
    
    Thou shall not put false images before thy Lord thy God.
    
    In the Catholic version, this Commandment is left out.   They
    made another Commandment into two Commandments to cover this.
    
    What I want to know is which is right.   
    
    
    Thanks,
    
    Bernie
    

Sorry, I cannot quote chapter and verse from memory.
In the Jewish version the first "commandment" is not really a commandment.
That is why we sometimes call them the "Ten Utterances".

1. I am G-d.
2. You shall have no other gods.
3. Don't waste G-d's name.
4. Keep the Sabbath.
5. Honor parents.
6. No murder.
7. No adultery.
8. No stealing.
9. No perjury.
10. Don't covet.

In the Christian version, numbers 1 and 2 are combined. Numbers 3-9 become
2-8. Number 9 is "Don't covet your neighbor's wife" and number 10 is
"Don't covet your neighbor's property."

Our rabbi once found a sign in a hotel room that said "Remember the 7th
commandment". He was taken aback until he remembered the Christian version!

There is quite a lot of commentary concerning these commandments. For instance,
the 1st 5 concern G-d to people while the last 5 are people to people. (The
5th commandment is on the border between the two sets.) The 1st and 6th
commandments are related (don't murder=death is G-d's business), as are 2-7,
etc. There is another line of thought that the best way to keep the nth
commandment is to keep commandments 1 to (n-1). For instance, a good way to
avoid perjury is to not be a thief yourself.

Dave

Moses came down from the mountain and told the people "I have good news
and bad news. The good news is I talked Him down to 10. The bad news is
He kept the one about adultery!." :-)

Dave

Our rabbi likes to paraphrase the first two commandments as:
"(1) I'm G-d and (2) you're NOT".

Dave

    Dave,
    
    Thanks for writting in the Commandments.
    
    I like the joke about Moses.
    
    
    Bernie

    The following is my translation of the Commandments, (Exodus XX, 2-14),
    from the Hebrew version. The Pentateuch has a 2nd version with very slight
    differences in Deuteronomy V, 6-18. One of the differences is that the
    commandement on the seventh day begins with the word "Keep" instead 
    of "Remember".

    1. 	And G-d said the following things (sayings => commandments): 
	[The word used here for commandments derives from the verb "to say"
	and is also used to designate "things", ~ what you say has the same
	significance as a concrete thing. I included this verse #1 as a 
	prelude to the commandements].

    2.	I am the Lord, your G-d, that took you out of the Land of Egypt, 
	from the House of the Slaves.
    3.	You shall not have other gods before Me.
    4.	You shall not make for thyself a statue and any picture of what is
	is in the heavens over you, nor in the earth under you, nor in
	the water, under the earth.
    5.	You shall not bow to them and you shall not serve them (adore them),
	because I am the Lord, your G-d, a jealous G-d, that recalls the 
	transgresion of the fathers onto sons, onto the 3rd generation and
	onto the 4th. generation to those that hate me
    6.	and that does goods in thousands to those that love me and keep my
	"mitzvoth" [i.e.: my orders, the things I command, ~ my commandements;
	this concept is different from the "devarim" of the 1st verse, sometimes
	is also interpreted, by extension, as a moral thing to do or as a good
	thing to do].
    
    7.	You shall not pronounce the-name-of-the-Lord in vain, because the Lord 
	will not clean the one that will pronounce His name in vain [Pronounce
	the name... :== to swear by].

    8.	Remember the day of Shabbath to consecrate it. Six days you shall work
	and you shall do all your labours 
    9.	and in the seventh day is Shabbath to the Lord, your G-d. You shall
	not do any labour, thou, nor thy son and your daughter, nor your male 
	and female slaves (:==servants), and your animals, nor the foreigner
	that lives within your gates.
    10.	Because in seven days made the Lord the heavens and the earth, the seas
	and all that is within them, and He rested in the seventh day, therefore
	He blessed the day of the Shabbath and He consecrated it.

    11.	Respect your father and you mother, so to lengthen your days on the
	earth that the Lord, your G-d, gives to you.

    12.	You shall not kill.

    13. You shall not commit adultery.

    14.	You shall not steal.

    15.	You shall not answer unto thy neighbour a false testimony.

    16.	You shall not desire the house of thy neighbour.

    17. You shall not desire thy neighbour's wife, nor his male or female
	slaves (or servants) nor his ox, nor his donkey nor anything belonging
	to your neighbour.

    	
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

	The original text does not number the "commandements". However, there 
	are some spaces or "graphic" separations between some verses. Here
	I kept together the text that goes together in Hebrew, while I 
	separated with an additional <CR> the places that have a separation
	in the original.

	In my conception, is very interesting to see that the Lord presents
	himself as the one "that freed you from the Land of Egypt, from
	serfdom". I can see here a commandment to thrive for freedom and
	not enslave yourself to anything, not even to the highest concepts
	possible. The Bible speaks to me in the language of men, therefor it
	is divine.

	Regards,

	Juan-Carlos Kiel

    reply .12
    
    Annent your verse 12. That should be Thou shall not murder/slay. 
    
    The verb is future tense Tertzacha. The verb for kill is Charog.
    
    

<                       <<< Note 1232.7 by TAVIS::JUAN >>>
<                              -< Exodus XX, 2-14 >-
[...]
<   11.	Respect your father and you mother, so to lengthen your days on the
<	earth that the Lord, your G-d, gives to you.

Could someone explain what this means, or enter a pointer to where this
is already discussed?  I am trying to reconcile this with abusive parents,
what "respect" or "honor" means, and how this will lengthen your days on Earth.

      Carol

    Carol,
    
    I can't explain what this means, but I can point you to an example
    of how one can "honor" an abusive parent.  In Heinlein's _Job:_A_
    _Comedy_of_Justice_, very close to the end, God describes how our
    hero "honored" his mother, although he neither loved nor respected
    her.  It may give you some ideas.  (It may also be a zillion miles
    off from what the Bible meant, but it sounded good to me.)
    
    						Ann B.

re .9

>Could someone explain what this means, or enter a pointer to where this
>is already discussed?  I am trying to reconcile this with abusive parents,
>what "respect" or "honor" means, and how this will lengthen your days on Earth.

The following two paragraphs of a longer prayer might give you an idea.
Forgiveness is good for the soul.  It is part of the Levitical commandment
to love your neighbor as yourself.  It relieves stress and improves health.

 I forgive my MOTHER, Lord.  I forgive her for times she may have hurt me,
 resented me or punished me unfairly.  I forgive her for preferring my brothers
 and sisters; I forgive her for telling me I was dumb, ugly, stupid, the worst
 of the children, or that I cost the family a lot of money.  I forgive her for
 rejecting me, abandoning me, or attempting to abort me.  I forgive her for
 telling me I was unwanted, an accident, or a mistake.  I forgive her for any
 lack of nurturing, lack of hugs and kisses.  For any ways she did not provide
 a deep, satisfying mother's blessing I truly forgive her today.  I pray for
 her today, and ask God's blessing upon her.

 I forgive my FATHER.  I forgive him for any non-support, lack of
 companionship, drinking, severe punishments, sexual abuse, desertion or
 unfaithfulness to my mother.  I forgive him for not showing his love; lack of
 hugs and kisses, tenderness and intimacy.  For any ways that I did not receive
 a deep and satisfying father's blessing I do forgive him today.  I pray for
 him today, and ask God's blessing upon him.

There seems to be a cyclical relationship between the commandments.
Each one is related to the one that comes before and the one that
comes after. "Honoring ones parents" thus is related to "Keep the Sabbath"
(i.e. maintain your parent's traditions) and "Don't murder" (i.e. family
members may fight but they mustn't kill one another).

Another interesting relationship is to pair up numbers 1 with 6, 2 with 7,
etc. Here, "Honor your parents" pairs up with "Don't covet" leading to several
interesting interpretations.

Another possibility is that you're supposed to take care of your parents when
they get old (whether they deserve it or not) so that your children will do
likewise for you.

Dave

Dave Gross listed the Jewish numbering of the Ten Commandments as:

>1. I am G-d.
>2. You shall have no other gods.
>3. Don't waste G-d's name.
>4. Keep the Sabbath.
>5. Honor parents.
>6. No murder.
>7. No adultery.
>8. No stealing.
>9. No perjury.
>10. Don't covet.
>
>In the Christian version, numbers 1 and 2 are combined. Numbers 3-9 become
>2-8. Number 9 is "Don't covet your neighbor's wife" and number 10 is
>"Don't covet your neighbor's property."

Not exactly.  Consider the following chart, listing the verses of Exodus 20
involved:

         Jewish*	     Roman Catholic	     Anglican and Protestant

I	 2    IAM	    2-6	  IAM,only,idols	2-3  IAM,only
II	3-6   only,idols     7	  name			4-6  idols
III	 7    name          8-11  sabbath		 7   name
IV	8-11  sabbath	     12	  parents		8-11 sabbath
V	 12   parents	     13	  murder		 12  parents
VI	 13   murder	     14	  adultery		 13  murder
VII	 14   adultery	     15	  theft			 14  adultery
VIII	 15   theft	     16	  false witness		 15  theft
IX	 16   false witness  17   covet wife		 16  false witness
X	 17   covet	     17   covet property	 17  covet

I'm not sure about the Eastern Orthodox numbering.
*Jewish numbering is based on Dave's example.

/john

    Carol,

    One interesting point about this commandment is that it gives a reward.
    There is only one other of the 613 commandments that does this,
    (to do with not taking the eggs of a mother bird when she can see). 
    
    Maybe the reward is stated as implicit recognition that the commandment
    can be very difficult to keep. 

    In terms of commentary obligations under 'respect' include; not sitting in
    your parents chair, not showing your parents up in public, how to speak
    to your parents, etc... In honour of parents the formal mourning period 
    is extended from 1 month to 11. 
    
    Regarding abusive parents, one is still expected to honour 
    them, unless they are breaking some other halakah (law) or telling 
    the children to. 
    
    Malcolm
    
    

    Hello again Carol,

    >>  11. Respect your father and you mother, so to lengthen your days on the
    >>     earth that the Lord, your G-d, gives to you.

    >Could someone explain what this means, or enter a pointer to where this
    >is already discussed?  I am trying to reconcile this with abusive
    >parents,
    >what "respect" or "honor" means, and how this will lengthen your days
    >on Earth.

    I had a chat with our new minister (not a Rabbi yet) last 
    weekend about this, so I now have a little more information. 

    I asked about parents who abuse their children, and how the term 
    'respect' seems to say that the children should be submissive to their
    parents. I suggested that demanding 'respect' is not the correct advice
    to tell an abused child who is likely to be lacking in confidence, as
    it only enforces the position/power of the parent.  

    In the discussion we also spoke about the many forms of abuse that 
    can include physical and mental, as well as any differences in 
    understanding of this commandment when the child becomes an adult. 

    Now for some answers: 

    First, respect does not mean subservient. So for a child who is 
    mentally abused, there is no obligation out of respect to the parents
    to take more abuse. This can be handled in many ways according the 
    the situation, but it is a good idea for the child to respectfully point
    out what it is that he finds abusive, and if this does not work to 
    find another solution. Basically, a child is not obliged to hang around 
    'out of respect' to the parents waiting for more abuse. The child is 
    still expected to act in a respectful manner towards the parents. 

    In the case of physical abuse, the same principle applies. There are also 
    times when the child must be taken from the parent where abuse takes place.
    There is also a ruling that a parent who abuses a child should be 
    excommunicated. 

    In terms of the parent - child relationship, the parent has obligations
    towards the child. First, the normal rules that exist in people <-> people
    relationships apply. Therefore, a parent cannot deal with a child in a 
    way that would be unacceptable when dealing with other people. For example, 
    the action of rebuking a child so that it provokes the child to violence is 
    compared to the sin of putting a stumbling block before the blind. So 
    there are clearly limits to the extent that a parent is allowed to 
    discipline a child. Regarding corporal punishment it is also stated that 
    the punishment should not be stronger than the force of a shoe lace.  
    Punishment must also be made at the time, but never in anger. 
    Punishment can only be used as an aid to Education. 

    An interesting point is that respect also means recognizing the
    faults/weaknesses of the parent and not holding these against them. 
    (When the child becomes an adult).

    >>  so to lengthen your days on the earth that the Lord, your G-d, gives to
    >>  you. 
 
    This didn't enter the conversation, but I did notice a commentary on the
    case of sending away the mother bird before taking any eggs. 
    (By coincidence this was in the Torah portion for last week). 
    There was a question asked of the person who did this and then fell 
    to their death when collecting the eggs. The answer from Rashi was 
    that they would have their reward in the after life. 

    My suggestion is that a person who has a good relationship with their 
    parents/child will feel like they have a longer life. I've heard 
    people with children that give them worries state that they 'take years 
    off their life'.

    Best Regards,

    Malcolm

    

Interesting interpretations.  Thank you.  :-)

      Carol