Conference taveng::bagels

>   The G-d of the Christians is not the same one as the G-d of the Jews. 
>   Because the Christian G-d is the Trinity, The Father, The Son and The
>   Holy Ghost.  The Jewish G-d is a Tribal G-d of the Jews (I won't
>   attempt to spell the name because of my spelling of the name but it
>   starts with J).

That the two religions worship different gods may be technically true.
No one disputes that Christianity is a spin-off of the Jewish religion.
In the book of Jonah, the sailors ask Jonah what god he worships and he
answers that he worships the creator, the One who made heaven and earth.
I don't feel comfortable with the description of the Jewish G-d as a
tribal god.

About the name of G-d: Hebrew has many names for G-d. The most "mysterious"
name is the 4-letter name (the so-called Tetragrammeton) spelled "yud" "hay"
"vav" "hay". "Yud" is like "Y" in English (a vowel) but is often transliterated
as "J" (Spanish "J" I assume). "Hay" is equivalent to "H". "Vav" is sometimes
a consonant "V", sometimes the vowel "OH", and sometimes the vowel "OO".
Moreover, there can be implicit vowel sounds attached to the "hay"s.
We simply don't know the correct pronunciation these days. It might be
unpronounceable (all vowels and aspirants); it might be a whisper. You
sometimes see "J-hovah" or "J-weh" ("J-veh"), but these are just guesses.

Dave

The word Trinity is never actually mentioned either the Tanakh (sp?) or 
the Christian New Testament.  This is a term that was coined later to try
to express the concept of one G-d, three persons.  A concept that is very
difficult to understand in human terms, and impossible to concretely define.
This concept of one G-d, three persons is a major difference between Judaism 
and Christianity as Judaism holds that there is one G-d period, and this
is expressed in the Shema - "Hear O Israel, the Lord your G-d is One.  However,
Christians too, would say that they worship the Creator, the One who made
heaven and earth, the G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

I too do not feel comfortable with the description of the G-d of the Jews
as a "tribal" God.  The Jewish people are G-d's _chosen_ people through whom
He will bring blessing to all peoples, however, all people were created and
are loved by Him.  As an example, look at the pouring out of the 10 drops of
wine during the recitation of the plagues in the Passover seder.

Leslie

re .-1:

I don't get the part about the wine.  Please explain.

It is the words in the seder that follow this action that explain this
illustration - I'll look them up in the Haggadahs that I have at home
tonight, and enter them in along with a more complete explanation of what
I meant.

Leslie

I use the 10 drops of wine, poured out from the cup of blessing or joy
during the recitation of the plagues, to show that God is creator of
all peoples and cares for them all, because of these words spoken
before or after pouring out the wine.
          -----------------------------------
from the New Union Haggadah prepared by the Central Conference 
of American Rabbis:

"Our rabbis taught: When the Egyptian armies were drowning in the sea,
the Heavenly Hosts broke out in songs of jubilation.  G-d silenced them
and said, "My creatures are perishing, and you sing praises ?"

(Talmud Bavli, Sanhedrin 39b)
          -----------------------------------
from The New Model Seder - published by The Prayer Book Press of Media 
Judaica, Inc.

"As we mention each of the plagues, we pour off a drop of wine from our
cup.  We do this to show our sympathy for the Egyptians.  The cup of 
wine is the symbol of joy.  But our cup of joy is not full when we recall
the suffering of the Egyptians.  Although they were our enemies and enslaved 
us, yet we still feel their pain.  They, too, were human beings, children 
of the same God in whom we believe."

>About the name of G-d: Hebrew has many names for G-d. The most "mysterious"
>name is the 4-letter name (the so-called Tetragrammeton) spelled "yud" "hay"
>"vav" "hay". "Yud" is like "Y" in English (a vowel) but is often transliterated
>as "J" (Spanish "J" I assume). "Hay" is equivalent to "H". "Vav" is sometimes
>a consonant "V", sometimes the vowel "OH", and sometimes the vowel "OO".
>Moreover, there can be implicit vowel sounds attached to the "hay"s.
>We simply don't know the correct pronunciation these days. It might be
>unpronounceable (all vowels and aspirants); it might be a whisper. You
>sometimes see "J-hovah" or "J-weh" ("J-veh"), but these are just guesses.


	Moreover, since that Name was only pronounced publicly by the Kohen
	HaGadol, and only on Yom HaKippurim (i. e., once a year), there
	is little question that within a few years after the destruction of the
	2nd Beit HaMikdosh (ca. 69 CE) that essentially NO ONE knew how 
	to pronounce the Name.  

	We certainly don't know this, today.

	
don feinberg

    G'day,
    
    Thanks for the replies.
    
    >I don't feel comfortable with the description of the Jewish G-d as a
    >tribal god.
    
    I think the person concerned was drawing attention to the fact that the
    Christian G-d is different in terms of the Trinity.  The Tribal bit I
    assume refered to the 12 Tribes of Israel that was my understanding. 
    Where as I think you would argue that the G-d of Israel is everyone's
    G-d because there is only ONE G-d.  I can understand that from the
    Hindu point of view because we belive that too that there is only ONE
    G-d dispite what Western's say.
    
    I get your point BUT the Trinity bit where did it come from if it's not
    in the NT and Jesus is G-d as well according to them.  I don't understand 
    please explain further.
    
    Thanks
    
    Sunil
                          

Jews do not believe in a Trinity. We do not believe that Jesus is G-d.
We are often at a loss to explain Christian theology because it is so
different than Jewish theology.

What I do know is that Jews believe in a universal G-d. I don't know whether 
this is a Jewish invention or a borrowing from other early religions
(especially those of Egypt and Persia). It could be that our concept of
G-d grew out of a tribal G-d of the Patriarchs. But Jewish theology is
way beyond that point today.

Dave

>>    -< Not really a Jewish subject >-

You're right Dave, and so I've sent mail to Sunil to try and 
answer his question.

Shalom,
Leslie

    G'day,
    
    I have read the EM sent to me and going through this topic has given me
    a better understanding.
    
    Having the information and being able to refer to it has opened me up
    to new experiences.  Thanks.
    
    Sunil

	Not being privy to Leslie's mail, Sunil, I may simply be repeating what
you've already heard.  But to tie it in with this note, I wanted to say that I
am often baffled by the description of Christians as worshipping three gods.
Christians believe, as do Jews, that there is one God -- the Creator of the
universe, ever present and everlasting.  As was said in an earlier reply, the
term "trinity" doesn't even appear in the Christian Bible.

	Often, however, people will refer to the various *manifestations* of
God (and perhaps "manifestations" isn't the best word -- maybe someone else can
come up with a better one).  A simple analogy (and one that is *incredibly*
insufficient, but is the closest I can think of) is myself:  I am a father; I
am also a husband and a son.  In my capacity as father, I have different roles
and responsibilities, different "character" (so to speak) than, say, in my
capacity as a husband.  Likewise, as a son to my parents, I am in a totally
different relationship than when I am a father or a husband.  So am I three
separate individuals?  Hardly...

	[Personal comment:] -- I believe that the Spirit of God, as part of His
character, has always been present.  It's not something "new", developed by any
particular sect or religion.  There are clear evidences of God's spirit with
Abraham, Moses, Daniel, and so many others throughout history.  The difference
from *my* perspective is the focus of the "role"; that is, the predominant focus
through the early history of the Jews is on God as Father -- not only Creator of
all, but giving "birth" to a people as well.  That does not, however, invalidate
any of His other roles.

	F

>	Often, however, people will refer to the various *manifestations* of
>God (and perhaps "manifestations" isn't the best word -- maybe someone else can
>come up with a better one).  A simple analogy (and one that is *incredibly*
>insufficient, but is the closest I can think of) is myself:  I am a father; I
>am also a husband and a son.  In my capacity as father, I have different roles
>and responsibilities, different "character" (so to speak) than, say, in my
>capacity as a husband.  Likewise, as a son to my parents, I am in a totally
>different relationship than when I am a father or a husband.  So am I three
>separate individuals?  Hardly...
    
    If G-d were to manifest himself in a human body, then when that body
    died part of G-d died. 
    
    What's happening here is not different views of G-d, as seen by man,
    but G-d himself changing. 
    
    I don't think that the idea of G-d changing, and being subjected to the
    mortality of humanity squares with the "ever present and everlasting"
    vision of Him. 
    
    Also, The Messiah is not to be part of G-d. 
    
    Malcolm 

    G'day,
    
    I take your point in .11 and I also understand the point Malcolm is
    making.
    
    So according to the Jewish faith the Messiah is NOT G-d BUT the
    Christian do believe he is G-d.  The other difference being that Jesus
    is not the Messiah so he is just a preacher or a political figure for
    the Jews.
    
    Would it be fair to say that G-d is the Father and the Holy Ghost to
    the Jews ?  What does the Holy Ghost mean in the Jewish faith ?
    
    I also agree with the following :-)
    
    >If G-d were to manifest himself in a human body, then when that body
    >died part of G-d died.
     
    Which goes againest everything I know about G-d from my religious point
    of view being immortal and being above his creation.  BUT then again
    G-d can do anything !
       
    Sunil

.13>    Jesus ... is just a preacher or a political figure for
.13>    the Jews.

The Jewish religion itself says nothing at all about Jesus; it doesn't even
address the issue of whether or not there ever was such a person.  Many Jews do
believe that there was, and that he founded an extremely influential religion,
but this belief is irrelevant to Judaism.

What Judaism does say is that the Messiah has not yet come.  So if Jesus did
exist, he wasn't the Messiah.

    G'day Eric,
         
    Re .14
    
    >What Judaism does say is that the Messiah has not yet come.  So if
    >Jesus did exist, he wasn't the Messiah.
     
    Fair comment as you have pointed out he is irrelevant to Judaism and is
    not the Messiah.
    
    Sunil

Likewise the concept of the holy ghost is completely foreign to Judaism.