Conference taveng::bagels

    I've read various articles on this recently in the press and ABC Evening
    News did a story on it.  There's a rabbi in Brooklyn whose followers
    believe he is about to declare himself the Messiah.  Unfortunately his
    name escapes me.  It was mentioned that he directs his followers in
    Israel as to how they should vote in elections, etc.  I believe it said
    he had never actually been to Israel himself, but I may be wrong.
    

    The article in the New York Times Sunday Magazine (1992) was about
    Rabbi Schneerson, Rebbe of the Lubavitchers, headquartered on Eastern
    Parkway in Brooklyn.
    
    Part of me says this is a delusion.
    
    Part of me sure wants to believe it!
    

.1>                      It was mentioned that he directs his followers in
.1>    Israel as to how they should vote in elections, etc.  I believe it said
.1>    he had never actually been to Israel himself, but I may be wrong.

I find myself in the odd position of confirming two of Ms. Kolling's
statements.  Yes, Rabbi Schneerson has never been to Israel, and yes, he does
tell his followers how to vote.  (As in any country that holds elections, there
is no shortage of people telling others how they should vote.  What makes the
elections free is that although you can tell people how to vote, you have no
way to enforce your wishes!)

    Rabbi Schneerson is the last known man descending from the appropriate
    forefather (who?), who meets all the requirements (what?)  He doesn't
    have any children and comes from a very long line of Rabbis.  Many
    people do look up to him.  Many don't do anything without getting his
    blessing first.  Apparently he has been very good at determining when
    to give or not to give a blessing for an enterprise.  He is getting
    very old (around 90).  
    
    But does all this make him the Messiah?  Is he really going to do this? 
    Is he becoming a bit senile in his old age? (I hope not.)  What did the
    article in the NY Times say?  Were there any direct quotes from Rabbi
    Schneerson in either NY Times, or in the ABC program, or any other
    place?
    
    Jake
     

    
       I stayed with my parents in NYC over passover. My father mentioned
       that a convoy of 90 trucks and busses filled with Shneerson
       followers made their way into Manhattan a couple of days before.
    
       I also ended up having an argument with my father and sort of
       taking the Lubovicher's side in it.
    
       As one of the founders of the State of Israel my father was very
       upset about the fact that Shneerson tells people how to vote, and
       yet has never been there.
    
       My father had very difficult experiences in connection with the
       fact that the very religious were against the formation of Israel...
       and in fact he felt strongly that they were extreme, exteme 
       obstacles.
    
       As one example:
       He recalled that as an educated {idealistic} person, he worked hard
       picking fruit etc. for "peanuts" as a strategy to compete with low
       wages of Arab labor. And at the end of a long week in Petach Tikva,
       he would make his way from the bus to go home to Haifa on Friday, and 
       recalls being physically accosted and endlessly heckeld at, for 
       "breaking" the Shabat..etc. He also remided me that the very
       religious don't go to the army.. 
    
       It was clear to me that my father does not believe that Shneerson is 
       the Messiah...My position was that it is AntiSemitic to have intense
       negative feelings for an entire group; In particular one which is so 
       [obviously] "out" as Jewish..
    
       ..But I could also see that for my father who came from Israel and
       stayed in New York...practically everybody in his world is Jewish...
       and so withhis context its a bit different than mine (where living
       in the Boston area, I am often the only Jewish person in the room, 
       and a lot of times am thirsty (hard up) for any form of yidishkite 
       and sensitive to anti-Semitism...where as for him he lives in a 
       Jewish world and to be critical of a group is like being critical 
       of one political party over another...I must also add that I don't
       consider it ok to impact Israeli politics when someone has never 
       been there. While I have very strong views on Israeli politics...
       above all I do believe in Israel for and by Israelis...
      
    
        QUESTIONS TO SOMEONE WHO MAY KNOW: Can you explain why Shneerson
        is considered possibly the Messiah. What qualities does he have
        which befit such an honor. What qualities is the Messiah expected
        to have?
    
    
         Daniella

    
      ADDITIONAL QUESTION: Is a Messiah a self proclaimed position?
      Or do other people say he is..
    
      In the Buddhist meditation method which I practiced in 
      India twenty years ago, those who teach Meditation have 
      to have reached certain deep inner milestones (where 
      particular negative "mental factors" no longer ever arise 
      in the mind...such as perhaps, ill will, as one example 
      and other clearly defined inner advancements). But besides 
      these evolved states of mind, a teacher of Vippassana 
      meditation has to have been authorized by thier teacher 
      in order to be able to teach)... Thus no self proclemation.
      (And this is in terms of someone who would be called a 
      "stream enterer"...nevermind those who have reached any of
      the other 3 stages (The last of which is about as rare as a 
      Messiah (The sort of checks and ballances exist because it 
      is assumed that the "spiritual ego" (and certain blissfull 
      states can deceive even the aspirant themselves...
    
      So I'd like to know more. Is Shneerson expected to make this
      announcement?  If so how do people know? If he' is going to
      say that he is the Messaih then is he that already now..and
      if so does this mean that certain special rules apply 
      <already>? Are the dead expected to arise? Doesn't the Messiah
      have to walk accross the valley to the Mount of Olives? etc..
    
      Daniella
    

Our rabbi in the Lubavitcher synagogue (Bais Chabad in Framingham) discussed 
this issue a few times.  He said that the Messiah should have four properties:

1) Be a descendant of King David.  Rabbi Shneerson is.  However, so are many 
other Jews who can legitimately claim that.

2) Fight for Jews and Jewishness around the world.  The Lubavitcher Rebbe 
definetely falls into this category.

However, the Lubavitcher Rebbe misses two other properies that are necessary 
for someone to be considered the Moshiah:

3) He should re-build the Temple.

4) He should assemble all Jews from around the world in Israel.

So our rabbi said that even though the Lubavitcher Rebbe might be considered 
the Moshiah by somebody, he is not the one.

    Re .6:  Jews are forbidden to practice the kind of meditation that you
    mentioned (no Yoga, no Budhist meditation, no concentrating on a symbol
    as in Ramma, Ramma, Krishna, Krishna, etc., no transcindental ...)
    
    Re. 5:  While it is true that some ultra orthodox sects were trying to
    stop the re-creation of Israel, as a Jewish state 44 years ago,
    Lubavitchers were definitely not one of those sects.
    
    Re. 7:  Is it not true that the Rebbe, is the last Jew alive that
    can definitevely prove his descendancy (on the male side) from King
    David?  Did your Rabbi indicate that even though Rabbi Schneerson is
    not (yet?) the Messiah, that Messiah will be coming this year?  Doesn't
    the Messiah have to gather *all* the Jews that have ever lived in the
    Temple?  Does the Messiah have to be a firstborn?
    
    Jake
    

Re: -.1

I can answer only one question:
Our rabbi never said "this year".  He always use the term "very soon".

Leo

Hi.

I'm not making this first point as a reflection on the Rabbi, but...

For those of our readers that weren't aware of this, the guy who accidentally
killed those black children (or child?) in Brooklyn that sparked riots when
the Chasid ambulance drivers left with the driver and *not* the dying kids, was 
in Schneerson's ever-present convoy of vehicles that regularly blast through 
Brooklyn.

However, I am making *this* point regarding the Rabbi's fanaticism 
(although I question whether the problem is more in the followers):

On another note, I read the article in the NY Times about Schneerson, from
beginning to end (it was a long one).  I was struck by the Chasidim that carry 
beepers, supposedly to be in touch if he officially (whatever officially means) 
is declared the Messiah.  I thought that was pretty demented.  Moreover, I was
offended by the fact that the children are instructed to lay out fresh 
clothes at night so that they can find them easily if the Messiah comes
in the middle of the night.  What possible level-headed opinions can such a 
child formulate when they're raised in that kind of environment?  To me,
Rabbi Schneerson seemed like a Jewish Ayatollah.  The words are different,
but the intent is the same.

Fanaticism in any brand is crazy.

 .steve.

Re. .8

>     Re .6:  Jews are forbidden to practice the kind of meditation that you
>    mentioned .....concentrating on a symbol  ... 
 

Wrong.  For proof see any of the several books written by Aryeh Kaplan on this
subject. His book "Jewish Meditation" describes how to medidate by concentrating 
on a symbol.    (Aryeh Kaplan was a brilliant, well-respected, main-stream, 
orthodox rabbi.)    A bit of irony is that the Hasidic movement founded by 
the Baal Shem Tov originally emphasised various forms of  meditation as a 
way to get closer to G-d.  The Lubavitch movement was founded by a 
disciple of the Baal Shem Tov.

>   Re. 5:  While it is true that some ultra orthodox sects were trying to
>    stop the re-creation of Israel, as a Jewish state 44 years ago,
>    Lubavitchers were definitely not one of those sects.
 

Probably wrong.  There is a very good article about the "Schneerson Messiah 
question" in last week's  "New Republic".  The bona fides of the
article's author was pretty good - (Jewish) professor of Jewish History or 
something.   I don't remember exactly how actively the Lubavitchers tried to 
stop the founding of Israel,  but they were definitely not supporters.  
According to the article, their current support for Israel is recent and is a
practical response to the world-wide Jewish community's overwelming support 
for Israel.


>    Re. 7:  Is it not true that the Rebbe, is the last Jew alive that
>    can definitevely prove his descendancy (on the male side) from King
>    David?  Did your Rabbi indicate that even though Rabbi Schneerson is
>    not (yet?) the Messiah, that Messiah will be coming this year?  Doesn't
>    the Messiah have to gather *all* the Jews that have ever lived in the
>    Temple?  Does the Messiah have to be a firstborn?


No comment.



FWIW, I don't often read the BAGELS notes file.because it only takes about 5
minutes for me to read a note that raises my blood pressure -- destroys all 
the benefit I've gotten from meditating.      

    
    Re: .10
    
    >I'm not making this first point as a reflection on the Rabbi, but...
    
    What point are you making, then?
    
>    For those of our readers that weren't aware of this, the guy who accidentally
>    killed those black children (or child?) in Brooklyn that sparked riots when
>    the Chasid ambulance drivers left with the driver and *not* the dying kids, was
>    in Schneerson's ever-present convoy of vehicles that regularly blast through
>    Brooklyn.
    
    How very silly and uninformed. 
    I suggest you do a little research before making such wild
    and reckless accusations. You can start with topic 1103 and
    related topics in BAGELS.
    
    The accident didn't "spark" anything it was a pretext. And BTW,
    when did it become illegal for Jews to drive? Do you suggest that
    Jews must stay at home, or that they only be allowed to venture
    to certain parts of the country?
    
    The ambulance story is pure propaganda. The Hatzala ambulance and
    that of the EMS arrived simultaneously. Hatzala was *ordered*
    to leave with the driver by the police, to avert his being lynched.
    
    >Schneerson's ever-present convoy of vehicles that regularly blast
    
    Hate fairly oozes from this line. Just try substituting "Martin
    Luther King" for "Schneerson," and see how the sentence reads.
    And honestly think about your reaction if MLK's car had accidentally
    hit someone, "sparking" three days of rioting against blacks.
    
    >On another note, I read the article in the NY Times about Schneerson, from
    >beginning to end 
    
    I'm no Lubavitcher, but the article was heavily slanted to present
    them in the worst possible light, and it bore no resemblance to
    the Crown Heights or Lubavitchers I know. 
    
    Jem
    
    

I have a real problem with the "Israel/Jews can do no wrong" crowd.  As an 
American Jew, it embarrasses me, and I think it embarrasses Jews all
over the world.  Remember, there *is* a Peace Now movement in Israel - they're
not Arabs in disguise, although some might accuse otherwise.

Ah, it's been awhile since I put an entry in here, and the attitude of .12
reminds me why... 8^(

Regarding .12,
I didn't connect the two - that incident in Brooklyn, and the Lubavitch
movement, until I read the article.  The only relationship between the
two was that the driver was part of the convoy.  Period.  I learned something.
I thought others might as well.  That's all.  I'm not saying that the 
great Rabbi told his followers to "Sacrifice a Black kid on the way home to
show your love for G-d".  Don't get all in a huff about it. 

I don't believe that the ambulance story was hype.  But, with all due
respect, neither of us was there, were we?  So I guess it's improper for
both of us to judge it, then, yes?  You're going to believe who you wish
to believe, and I will do the same.

RE:
                                                             And BTW,
    when did it become illegal for Jews to drive? Do you suggest that
    Jews must stay at home, or that they only be allowed to venture
    to certain parts of the country?
All I can say is:
    How very silly and uninformed. 

Jem, you really ought to stop shooting from the hip.  The driver that
hit the kids shouldn't just lose his license with a slap on the wrist.
I wouldn't.  So what will become of it?  Time will tell.  Perhaps after
the Rodney King trial, that will be less likely to happen.

No matter what the reality of the situation is, the perception is that
the Chasidim are given preferential treatment by the Police in NYC than
the Blacks in that same neighborhood.  As a frequent visitor to Brooklyn,
I can *sure* see why this is perceived.  This accident (see, I called it
an "accident" before you go and hairtrigger again) didn't help things.
Something must be done, in a concerted way, to heal the wounds caused
by this accident.  Seeing only your own perspective and shutting out all
others is certainly not going to work, Jem.

RE: 
    I'm no Lubavitcher, but the article was heavily slanted to present
    them in the worst possible light, and it bore no resemblance to
    the Crown Heights or Lubavitchers I know. 

The article pointed out the depths of the fanaticism in that cult.  When
I was in Sunday School in the 70's, we were visited by Lubavitchers.  The
point was to expose us, as Reformed Jews, to other interpretations of
Judaism.  Some were quite normal, and others were lunatics.  There's no 
room in the world for fanatics - on any side (I include Fat Al and the 
Kach nuts in that bunch).

.steve.

    
    
    Re: .13
    
    >I have a real problem with the "Israel/Jews can do no wrong" crowd.
    
    What a coincidence. I have a real problem with the "Israel/Jews can 
    do no right" crowd.
    
    >As an
    >American Jew, it embarrasses me, and I think it embarrasses Jews all
    >over the world. 
    
    I have no idea who you're talking about, but your "embarrassment" about
    Jews who seek to defend Jewish interests speaks for itself. As for
    "Jews all over the world," I hadn't realized that there was an
    organization of embarrassed Jews, but I congratulate you on becoming
    their spokesman.
    
    > Remember, there *is* a Peace Now movement in Israel - they're
    >not Arabs in disguise, although some might accuse otherwise.
    
    Hmmm, I must have missed the discussion of Peace Now in this
    note.
    
    >Ah, it's been awhile since I put an entry in here, and the attitude of
    >.12 reminds me why... 8^(
    
    Well, I hope you wait at least as long for your next entry as it
    will take you to look up some facts.
    
    >I didn't connect the two - that incident in Brooklyn, and the
    >Lubavitch movement, until I read the article.  The only relationship 
    >between the two was that the driver was part of the convoy.  Period.  
    >I learned something.
    
    If this was the first time you'd learned this, it would appear
    you probably have not read much about the story. The press did
    anything but downplay this fact.
    
    >I don't believe that the ambulance story was hype.  But, with all due
    >respect, neither of us was there, were we?  So I guess it's improper
    >for both of us to judge it, then, yes?  You're going to believe who you
    >wish to believe, and I will do the same.
    
    "With all due respect," I'll believe NYC Police Commissioner Lee Brown.
    Who do you "wish to believe," the rampaging hordes? Here's the AP
    report, once again:
    
    >>    It was not clear if the last car was speeding to get through a
    >>changing light or had run a red light when it collided with another car
    >>and mounted the sidewalk, striking two black children, Police
    >>Commissioner Lee Brown said.
    >>    The station wagon, driven by Yoseph Lisef, 22, whose address was
    >>withheld by police, struck and killed Gavin Cato and seriously injured
    >>his cousin, 7-year-old Angela Cato, both of Brooklyn, Trazoff said.
    >>    Angry onlookers gathered around Lisef and his two passengers,
    >>brothers Levi and Yakov Spielman, and begin attacking the three men as
    >>an ambulance from the city's Emvergency Medical Service and a private
    >>Hasidic-run community ambulance arrived.
    >>    Police officers at the scene ordered the private ambulance to
    >>remove the driver and two passengers "in the interests of preserving
    >>the peace," Brown said.  The three Hasidic men were treated at
    >>Methodist Hospital and released.
    >>    "The city ambulance took care of the two young children that were
    >>hurt", Brown said.
    >>    As descriptions of the accident swept through the crowd, a rumor
    >>began that the three Hasidic men had received medical treatment before
    >>the two black children.
    
    >Jem, you really ought to stop shooting from the hip.  The driver that
    >hit the kids shouldn't just lose his license with a slap on the wrist.
    >I wouldn't.
    
    How much research have you done on the issue? Reporters who did
    research the matter found that there were there were quite a few
    fatal motor accidents in NYC in the past few years, and in none 
    of them was a criminal charge filed, except in cases of intoxication.
    BTW, do you know about the Jewish child who was killed by a black
    driver on Eastern Parkway the year before? Were you condemning the
    "ever-present convoys" of black-driven vehicles at that time? If
    the Jews had responded by murdering blacks and burning and looting
    their houses and stores for three days, would you have been defending
    it? All I'm saying is choose one standard, and stick to it.
    
    >No matter what the reality of the situation is, the perception is that
    >the Chasidim are given preferential treatment by the Police in NYC than
    >the Blacks in that same neighborhood.
    
    "No matter what the reality"!? To me, reality matters a whole lot,
    thank you.
    
    >the perception is that
    >the Chasidim are given preferential treatment by the Police in NYC than
    >the Blacks in that same neighborhood. 
    
    So everything comes down to "perception," eh? Another word for
    "perception" is prejudice. Should we make prejudice the law of the
    land?
    
    Do you think it wouldn't have been easier for the Lubavitcher Rebbe 
    to take his Chassidim and move to the suburbs like the other white
    residents of Crown Heights (and practically all of urban America)
    did in the '50s and '60s? There is neighborhood after burnt-out
    neighborhood all over the country where exactly that happened. If
    "privileged" means hard-working, tax-paying families who struggle
    and sacrifice to make their mortgage and ever-increasing tuition
    payments, then I guess you're right.
    
    >Something must be done, in a concerted way, to heal the wounds caused
    >by this accident.  
    
    Of course nothing must be done to heal the wounds caused by the pogrom.
    
    >Seeing only your own perspective and shutting out all
    >others is certainly not going to work, Jem.
    
    Seeing only everyone else's perspective and shutting out that
    of the Jewish community is utter hypocrisy, Steve.
    
    >The article pointed out the depths of the fanaticism in that cult. When
    >I was in Sunday School in the 70's, we were visited by Lubavitchers. The
    >point was to expose us, as Reformed Jews, to other interpretations of
    >Judaism.  Some were quite normal, and others were lunatics. 
    
    Just try switching around "Lubavitchers" and "Reformed Jews," and see
    how it reads. (BTW, the serious Reform Jews I know would have a fit
    if they saw their denomination described as "Reformed.")
    
    Look, Jews seek justice regardless of the background, race or creed
    of the victim, and rightly so. But Hillel's famous "...if I am only
    for myself, what am I?" is preceded by "If I am not for myself, who
    will be for me?" Jews have had their fundamental sense of self-respect
    and human dignity brutally torn from them by a debasing and
    dehumanizing exile. We must indeed pursue justice and work to 
    redress ills in all communities. But we're not necessarily at the
    bottom of the list.
    
    Jem
    

>Wrong.  For proof see any of the several books written by Aryeh Kaplan on this
>subject. His book "Jewish Meditation" describes how to medidate by concentrating 
>on a symbol.    (Aryeh Kaplan was a brilliant, well-respected, main-stream, 
>orthodox rabbi.)    A bit of irony is that the Hasidic movement founded by 
>the Baal Shem Tov originally emphasised various forms of  meditation as a 
>way to get closer to G-d.  The Lubavitch movement was founded by a 
>disciple of the Baal Shem Tov.

	I have to chuckle a little at this comment about Aryeh Kaplan.

	Brilliant?  No doubt.  What a guy!

	Well respected?  Well, er, ah, mostly after his death.  Aryeh
	was a real "enfant terrible".  People had a lot of "intellectual"
	respect for him, but a lot of his more "unstable" behaviors. These
	are not necessarily negative, but resulted mainly from his overwhelming
	needs to search, know, learn, study, ... (do you know of his antics
	at summer camps in NY and in Mass in the '50s?  Or when he
	went to live alone in Kentucky, used to drive this battered '50s
	pickup truck, and ...? Or when he became the Rabbi of a conservative
	congregation in Albany, NY because no "respectable" orthodox
	community would accept him? Or when he handily out-learned the Rosh
	Yeshiva - twice - at a certain, well-repected black hat yeshiva
	in Brooklyn? Or when he was secretary to a Nobel-prize winning
	physicist in some nuclear treaty negotiations in Europe for a
	couple of years (you mean you didn't know that he had a PhD in
	Physics - also?) 

	He actually didn't get orthodox semicha in any ordinary way.  He
	no patience to remain in yeshiva the way "everyone else" did.
	How he eventually got the semicha is a story in itself!

	Some of these behaviors, and more, certainly lost him the respect of 
	many, many in the "mainstream". 

	So, "Mainstream"?  Hardly.  Anything *but*!

	Orthodox?  Maybe.  I think he wouldn't have defined himself that 
	way. Observant?  Certainly, but it varied as part of his "search".
	Learned?  You bet!  Unbelieveable!  Careful? Yep. Orthodox?  Huh?
	What's that?

	Perhaps his greatest personal goal was to share his knowledge of the 
	sources with the ordinary Jew.  He was able to do this due to his 
	writing ability, plus also the fact that one of his greatest 
	achievements was that, in addition to everything else, he was a true 
	scholar in Aramaic, and had a very complete knowledge of Arabic and 
	Greek, along with a somewhat idetic memory. He was able to bring
	synthesis to widely separated texts that seemingly no one
	else was able to do. 

	Among other things, while in Albany, to "keep current" (his words...)
	he wrote a commentary on the Chumash which is a couple of thousand 
	pages (I believe). It is yet unpublished (it is not like the "Living 
	Torah" of one volume)  I understand from reliable sources that there
	is considerable pressure on his wife to release the mss. for
	publication.


don feinberg	

Re. .15

>> I have to chuckle a little at this comment about Aryeh Kaplan.



As far as Kaplan's bigraphy goes, especially his background in physics, that 
shouldn't be a surprise to anyone who reads his books, since the books almost 
always include a biography on the cover or in the introduction.

Thanks for the gossip, though.  I probably get too much of my knowledge 
from books.  (I've even ordered a lot of my possessions from catalogs. 8^) )  

My comments about "mainstream" and "orthodox" are based about what I've read 
about Kaplan in magazines, etc. and also (very important to me) which 
publishers have chosen to publish his books. His books have been 
published by conservative (small c) Jewish publishing houses.  Somebody is
"well repected" to me if he can disseminate his ideas through generally 
respected journals, publishing houses, and other community sources of 
information and opinion.  

For example, Kaplan's book about the significance of the mikvah was published 
under the auspices of a very mainstream orthodox youth group.  Artscroll has 
published some thing(s) of his.  He translated a hagadah which was published by 
one of the popular jewish presses, etc., etc.  (Pardon the imprecise references, 
but I am at work and don't have access to my library.)

Julian

    I only have one thing to say: "How did we get on the subject of riots
    in NYC?  It has very little to do with my original questions, to which
    I still don't have any satisfactory answers!"
    
    But now that I have said this, I'd like to add the following:
    
    "There is no worse 'antisemite' than a self hating Jew!"  I know its
    been said before, but Steve, does it ring the bell?  You may want to
    think about your views in the greater scheme of things, maybe meditate
    a little?!  You may find yourself being closer than you think to that
    "antisemite."
    
    RE: .11   I did not mean to confuse you, but I did not say that all
    meditation was forbiden to Jews.  I was only talking about the kinds of
    meditation that involve out-of-body experiences and idle worshiping,
    like concentrating on god-like objects (idols), as is done in all the
    meditation methods that I mentioned.  My source for this information,
    is a lecture I attended eight years ago.  The lecture was presented by
    a "well respected" Lubavitcher expert on Meditation and Mysticism.
    (Unfortunately, I can't remeber the guy's name.)  As you mentioned in
    your reply, Lubavitch movement did originate with Bal Shem Tov.  He
    practiced Jewish Mysticism (KABALAH), which meditation is a part of. 
    Again there is nothing wrong with Jews practicing Jewish Meditation,
    in fact it is probablly recomended, especially for those that study
    KABALAH.  Budhist monk meditation, on the other hand, is probablly
    better left to the natives of the Hymalayas, and other non-Jews.
    
    Also regarding pro (or against) creation of Israel in 1948:  Most
    Hasidim (even the ones that were against creating a secular Israel,
    before its creation in 1948) became pro Israel afterwards, not because
    of the popular Jewish opinions and external pressures, but because of
    the Laws regarding Mitzvos.  I can supply more information on this if
    anybody is interested.
    
    On a different note,  Lubavitcher Rebbe, has never been to Israel, only
    because he subscribes to the belief, that any Jew that ever sets foot
    on HaEretz Israel, can never leave again.  He also believes that he can
    do more for Israel and Yidishkeit from his headquarters in NYC, than he
    would be able to do from Yerushalaim.  
    
    Jake
    

    
    Re: .17
    
    >    Also regarding pro (or against) creation of Israel in 1948:  Most
    >    Hasidim (even the ones that were against creating a secular Israel,
    >    before its creation in 1948) became pro Israel afterwards, not because
    >    of the popular Jewish opinions and external pressures, but because of
    >    the Laws regarding Mitzvos.  I can supply more information on this if
    >    anybody is interested.
    
    There are quite a few who are ideologically against a Jewish state 
    before the advent of the Messiah. Although I don't agree with them,
    I understand the theoretical position. I say theoretical because
    in general there is little practical difference, with many "anti-
    Zionist" Jews living in, travelling to and supporting institutions
    in Israel. There are literally a handful of nuts (I use the word
    advisedly, as I have met a few), who actively work against the
    status quo, but they'll get in the paper once in a while and then
    go away for a year.
    
    Jem
    

    re: .13 (Steve),.14 (Jem)

    This is one case where I have to support Jem against the imputation
    that he takes the position "Israel/Jews can do no wrong."  He takes a
    strong position on those issues he believes in (and I often disagree),
    but he is not blind to the human failings of those he otherwise
    supports.  I'm not in favor of labeling people (although I admit to
    being guilty of doing it occasionally), but I'm particularly opposed to
    mislabeling.

    I too find Hillel's aphorism an appropriate guide--we must both support 
    and defend ourselves AND seek justice for others.  The two are not only 
    not mutually exclusive, but I believe they are mutually required.

    re: .17 (Jake)

    On the other hand, I am disturbed by someone saying that another is a
    "self-hating Jew."  That kind of name-calling is out of line.  Steve's
    phrasing leaves something to be desired, but the issues he are ones that 
    are perfectly legitimate for a Jew to raise.

                                            Aaron

    Re: .19 
    
    Please reread what I have said.  I never called Steve "a self hating
    Jew," but simply pointed out that if he perhaps took a moment to
    reconsider his views in light of the considerations that were put
    forward by Jem and myself, maybe he would see how close his views come
    to those of "self hating Jews."  Perhaps I should have worded my
    opinion a little milder, but I feel very strongly that if Jews can put
    forward opinions like Steve's, than what about the rest of the people? 
    We don't need to keep antisemitism alive, there are plenty of people
    who are willing to do it for us.
    
    Jake
    

    
    Re: .19
    
    >        -< Pro-Jem >-
    
    Hmm. Must be a catch. :)
    
    > Steve's
    >    phrasing leaves something to be desired, but the issues he are
    >ones that are perfectly legitimate for a Jew to raise.
    
    It's not a question of what's a "legitimate point to raise." The
    issue is the knee-jerk reaction of so many Jews to support "justice"
    for everyone but Jews, and to often jump to the conclusion that
    the Jewish perspective must be wrong, without even taking the
    time to examine the facts of the matter. The phraseology used
    in this note was "embarrassment," but a more frequently used term
    for this condition is "guilt." Two thousand years of exile and
    oppression have indeed made the Jew afraid of his own shadow,
    feeling that he must constantly justify his existence... and
    the thought of a proud Jew who works for his/her people makes
    him cringe in embarrassment. After all, goes the reasoning, there
    must be *some* reason why there are so many anti-Semites in the
    world, no?
    
    Jem
    

 Re: 1214.21
    
 >>   Re: .19
 >>   
 >>   >        -< Pro-Jem >-
 >>   
 >>   Hmm. Must be a catch. :)
    
    Well, somebody will probably accuse me of trying to give you a heart
    attack by agreeing with you :^)
    
                                              Aaron

    No offense was intended, and I apologize if any was taken.  I'll
    try to be more careful in the future.
    
    On the other hand, we must learn to distinguish between anti-Semitism
    and indulgent self-criticism.  I think most of us in here are healthy
    enough to discern between the two, in most circumstances.  Without 
    knowing the person behind the keyboard, it makes it difficult to 
    know the writer's intent.  I think my wording contributed to that
    difficulty.  Sorry about that.
    
    In order to find the truth in our lives, we must learn about *all* the
    perspectives on each situation.   In order to understand another's
    perspective, we must thrust ourselves into their mind.  This is the
    only way we can truly view the world from their perspective, albeit
    momentarily.  If we hit them over the head with our perspective's
    facts, they're too numb to listen.  If we find ways to build bridges,
    false misconceptions fade... over time.
    
    I find occasional knee-jerk reactions in here, and I am saddened, but
    moreover, I am frustrated.  I want to see how opposite sides can
    meet halfway, and some attitudes here elude any chances of
    bridge-building.
    
    Fanaticism for any cause is unhealthy.  And it doesn't work.
    
                                .steve.
    
    p.s. and cut out the "self-hating Jew" talk... 8^)

    RE: .23
    
    Ok, Mr. Bernstein, sir.  Now we can talk!  And I'll just reffer to you
    as an internationalist, anti-racist Jew, who sees events only from
    other peoples' point of view?!  :~)
    
    Is the Messiah still comming this year, or is Rebbe Schneerson with his
    vision of the Messiah, just another Rabbi Akiva who believes that Rabbi
    Barkovka is the messiah.  If the greatest Rabbi could make that
    mistake, surely Rebbe Schneerson could repeat it?!
    
    Jake
    

    
    Re: .24
    
    I honestly don't believe that Rabbi Schneerson has ever encouraged
    the date-divining that some of his followers have been practicing,
    and I've heard that he's strongly denounced his followers' reference
    to himself as the future Messiah.
    
    > If the greatest Rabbi could make that
    >mistake, surely Rebbe Schneerson could repeat it?!
    
    All I can say is, we hope for his arrival each day.
    
    Jem