Conference taveng::bagels

    
    Re: .0
    
    There are none. However, for many purposes one can simply
    remove the egg-yolk and just use the white. In cooking,
    I'm told that 2 whites = 1 yolk without the colesterol.
    
    Jem
    

    A quick question:
    
    Is it not true that corn is considered pesachdik by Sefarad�, for whom,
    then, egg beaters would be fine?
    
    Ram�n

    
    Re: .2
    
    Corn is eaten by Sepharadim, but you'd still need rabbinic
    supervision for the product, since there is a certain percentage
    of ingredients which is never listed in processed foods. Best
    advice is to get in touch with a Sepharadi halachic authority.
    If you need help locating one, contact me by email.
    
    (BTW, some commentators say that this is precisely what
    we are to begin discussing on Purim. Tizkeh lemitzvot!)
    
    Jem
    

.3>    ...but you'd still need rabbinic
.3>    supervision for the product, since there is a certain percentage
.3>    of ingredients which is never listed in processed foods.

    	I've heard this before, and I've never been able to clarify whether
    it's really true or whether it's more of an urban legend.  After all,
    whenever I read a list of ingredients, I get glassy-eyed at the trace
    ingredients which are often there only as preservatives or
    conditioners.  Why would manufacturers bother listing them at all if
    they weren't required to?  Who makes the rules on ingredient lists,
    anyway?  (Rathole:  When Coca-Cola gets a kashrut certification, do the
    rabbinic authorities get to see the famous recipe, identifying those
    "natural flavors"?)  What does and doesn't have to be included?

    	This issue must have been written up somewhere.  I'd like to get a
    reference, or, even better, a posting here.

    			David

I believe manufacturers are allowed to omit *certain* ingredients from the
list if they're below come threshold.  Presumably the preservatives you see
listed are not among these.  Also, certain catch-all ingredients are allowed
("natural flavors," "natural colors," "emulsifiers"), and some of these
are either chametz, kitniyos, or even non-kosher (a red coloring is made
from the shell of a beetle, an emulsifier is made from human hair).

The laws of Pesach are much stricter than the laws of kashrus.  In kashrus,
there's the concept of "batel b'shishim," meaning that if something non-kosher
falls into something kosher, and it's less than 1/60 of the total, the
result is kosher (this doesn't hold for ingredients that are required for
the product to "work", like rennet in cheese).  There's no such exemption
for Pesach -- the slightest bit of chametz makes the result chametz.  That's
why supervision is required for practically everything.

As regards Coca Cola, DEC isn't the only company with non-disclosure
agreements.  There have been rabbis who've been made privy to the secret.

>.3>    ...but you'd still need rabbinic
>.3>    supervision for the product, since there is a certain percentage
>.3>    of ingredients which is never listed in processed foods.
>
>    	I've heard this before, and I've never been able to clarify whether
>    it's really true or whether it's more of an urban legend.  After all,
>    whenever I read a list of ingredients, I get glassy-eyed at the trace
>    ingredients which are often there only as preservatives or
>    conditioners.  Why would manufacturers bother listing them at all if
>    they weren't required to?  Who makes the rules on ingredient lists,
>    anyway?  

	Ingredients lists are according to local govenrment standards.
	Ex: in USA, the ingredients are listed in decreasing proportional
	order of content (not telling you "how much", of course...).  But
	in Israel, that's not required; they simply list the ingredients
	(and sometimes the ingredients lists are in different orders 
	from Hebrew to English).

	The rules are local (country) rules.  The most classic case I can think
	of was for a brand of "saltine" crackers sold in the US, whih 
	happened a few years ago. The label of the product says "made with 
	100% pure vegetable shortening".

	(Rathole: no one asks if that means "all the shortening used
	is vegetable shortening" or "all the vegetable shortening used
	is 100% pure -- but maybe something else is used, also...")
	
	Upon investigation, it was found that they were using lard in place
	of the vegetable shortening.  Why/how?  Under labelling
	regulations in the US, manufacturers are granted a certain
	amount of leniency.  In this case, because this mfg. had lost their
	supply of "100% pure vegetable shortening" for some temporary
	period, they were allowed to use lard without going to the expense and
	difficulty of re-labelling their packages.

	Rabbinic inspection is supposed to (and I think, usually does --
	with exceptions due to the usual human failings) prevent this sort 
	of thing.


>	(Rathole:  When Coca-Cola gets a kashrut certification, do the
>	rabbinic authorities get to see the famous recipe, identifying those
>	"natural flavors"?)  What does and doesn't have to be included?

	Yup.  There was a squib in the newspaper just a couple of weeks ago, 
	when R' Ovadiah Yosef was in the US. He visited Coca Cola.  They 
	revealed to him (under "non disclosure, I assume!!) the famous 
	formula in all its details.

don feinberg

re .4:

Here are some items from the March 1992 issue of KosherGram (published by
The Merkaz, 15919 W. 10 Mile Rd., Suite 208, Southfield, MI 48075):

FRUIT COCKTAIL

All U.S. manufacturers of canned "fruit cocktail" and "chunky mixed
fruit" with cherries now use carmine, a red dye derived from non-kosher
insects, to color the cherries.  Some manufacturers began this in the
1990 production season; the rest began in 1991.  This change to carmine
is not indicated on the label; the ingredients continue to list only
"halved cherries artificially colored".  Some brands bear a K type of
symbol on the label, but they also contain carmine.

There is a possibility that some special productions of fruit cocktail
will be made using Red #3, which must now be declared on the label,
instead of carmine.  If the label lists Red #3, the product does not
contain carmine.

Some brands of "fruit mix" are available; they are similar to fruit
cocktail but without cherries, and contain no carmine.

MARASCHINO CHERRIES, sold separately in jars, are colored with Red #40,
which is kosher, and do not use carmine.  However, they contain added
flavorings, and therefore require reliable Kashrus certification.

HERSHEY'S CHOCOLATE COVERED CANDY COATED ALMONDS in pastel colors, and
HERSHEY'S CANDY COATED MILK CHOCOLATE EGSS in pastel colors, sold in
March-April, both contain carmine coloring derived from non-kosher
insects (although not listed on the label) and are not OU approved.
The red, green & white Chocolate Covered Candy Coated Almonds sold
in December-January do not contain carmine.

    re: Coke
    
    Yeah the Rabbi who gives the approval knows the formula.
    
    The one substitution that Coke makes is sugar instead of Corn syrup for
    the batches that are kosher for passover.
    
    NOTE: IMPORTANT:
    
    There are Coke bottles that are labeled kosher for passover that the
    ingredients label includes corn syrup. My parents checked on this and
    were told by OU that any bottle of Coke that is labeled kosher for
    passover is indeed ok. The problem is that the label of ingredients did
    not get changed in some cases.
    
    yoseff