Conference taveng::bagels

    Actually it was in the New York Times Sunday magazine, as distinct from
    Time Magazine.
    
    The article has a rather negative tone overall.  Any way to get in a
    dig at the Lubovitchers' expense.  I am disappointed to see such a
    slant in this august venue.  The article's bias makes me doubt the
    author's claims that Lubovitch followers believe R. Schneerson is the
    messiah.  I think there are probably numerous mistakes in the article. 
    Someone better acquainted with the subject should be able to identify
    these errors.
    
    -L

    
    Laura,
    
    	The article I saw was in this week's Time magazine. There must be
    	a second one in the N.Y. Times magazine section. 
    
    David

             
    Re: .1
    
    > The article's bias makes me doubt the
    >author's claims that Lubovitch followers believe R. Schneerson is the
    >messiah.
    
    I think many do, but the Rebbe himself has expressed his
    strong opposition to such sentiments on many occasions. It
    did seem that the author sought to portray Lubavitch in
    a negative light.
    
    >  I think there are probably numerous mistakes in the article. 
    >Someone better acquainted with the subject should be able to identify
    >these errors.
   
    I don't have the article here, but one characterization of the
    Rebbe particularly sticks in my mind. Incredibly, the author
    saw fit to describe a 90-year-old leader of tens of thousands
    of Jews, who spends dozens of hours each week delivering
    talks and meeting with all comers as a "hermit." 
    
    I'd sure be interested in meeting a "social" leader :)
    
    Jem
     
   

	Hi,

	I hope I'm not deviating from the topic note's intention, but
	it got me thinking:  The Messiah's arrival is in and of itself
	for me an incomprehensible event.  How will we (I) know when s/he
	has come?

	Thanks for any insights,

	-ric.

re: .4

My Judaic education is pretty nominal, however isn't there something
somewhere that says the Messiah's arrival will be preceded by world peace
among other things?  If so, I fear we've a bit of a wait...

~Caryn

RE: 4

Where in the books of Moses does it say peace will come on earth before the
Messiah comes?  I believe He has already come, and is coming again soon. 


2 Corinthians, Chapter 3 starting at verse 13:

	We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face
	to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance
	was fading away.  But their minds were made dull, for to
	this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is
	read.  It has not been removed, because only in Christ is
	it taken away.  Even to this day when Moses is read, a
	veil covers their hearts.  But whenever anyone turns to the
	Lord, the veil is taken away.


Jude, starting at verse 11:

        
	But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord
	Jesus Christ foretold. They said to you, "In the last times
	there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly
	desires." These are the men who divide you, who follow mere
	natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.


Hebrews, Chapter 9, starting at verse 15:

	For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant,
	that those who are called may receive the promised eternal
	inheritance -- now that he has died as a ransom to set them
	free from the sins committed under the first covenant.



Revelation, Chapter 22, verse 20:

	He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon."
	Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.  The grace of the Lord Jesus be with
	God's people. Amen.



May the peace and love of Jesus Christ be with you,

 Ralph

    Ralph, everyone - I think this discussion would be more appropriate in
    the Christian notesfile.  The Christian ideas of a messiah and what is
    meant by a messianic age have only historical connections to Jewish
    beliefs, and may even offend some of the readers of this notesfile,
    which is surely not your intention, if you are viewed as "preaching".
    
    Most liberal Jews do not put a big emphasis on the idea of a messiah as
    a person who will bring some kind of redemption for our own faults.
    Instead, our emphasis is on social action, to improve the human
    condition through what we can do ourselves.  More philosophically
    oriented liberals think of their actions to improve the human
    conditions as preparations to what you would think of as a messianic
    era.  Some more conservative Jewish thought is closer to your Christian
    idea of a messiah, but the idea of what a "messianic era" would then
    mean would seem pretty foreign to you.  Resumption of animal sacrifices
    in a rebuilt Temple in Jerusalem would probably strike you as more
    likely to cause a major war than a messianic era - or, to think of it
    from the other direction, it is likely to be true that only a supreme
    supernatural power could achieve this WITHOUT causing a major war.
    
    /Charlotte

    
    Re: .7
    
    > Some more conservative Jewish thought is closer to your Christian
    >idea of a messiah,
    
    Please. The "Christ" of the Christian has *nothing* in common
    with the Jewish Messiah.
    
    Re: .6
    
    Go thump your Bible somewhere else.
    
    Jem
    

    Re: .6
    
    These people can never stop thumping there Bible anywhere because they
    feel they are absolutely right.
    
    BUT the example they have set in this world speaks volumes about them
    and there sprituality.  I find more love and understanding in the
    non-Bible tumping people.
    
    By the way Ralph the note you have written would have been set hidden
    in the Christian conference, if a Hindu or a Jew etc. would have written
    something like what you have written.  Tolerence comes from people who
    know what suffering is.
    
    I am not Jewish therefore can someone tell me about the Jewish Messiah.
    Who is Christ from a Jewish point of view, I would like to know because
    the Bible thumping people say some very funny things.
    
    By the way I am a Hindu and an Indian so I really do not understand.  I
    hope that you could help me gain a better understanding of your point
    of view.
                            
    Thanks
    
    Sunil

    
    Re: .9
    
    >I am not Jewish therefore can someone tell me about the Jewish Messiah.
    >Who is Christ from a Jewish point of view, I would like to know because
    >the Bible thumping people say some very funny things.
    
    You're asking two different questions. As far as the Jewish
    Messiah, see note 963.8 and some of the other notes there.
    "Christ" is a Christian concept wholly unrelated to that of the
    Jewish Messiah.
    
    Welcome to the conference, Sunil!
    
    Jem
    

Not too surprisingly, this question keeps coming up.

See notes 379 and 462. There may be more.

Just in case you don't understand the bible "thumping" thing, the quotes
in .6 were all from the Christian bible and are out of place in this
conference.

Dave

    Gem and Dave,                                                
    
    Thanks for your pointers I have read the notes and have found them very
    helpful.  Now I can truely see the Jewish point of view, I hope that I
    can get a better understanding of your religion and history.
    
    I can say that we have much in common and we also have much that is
    different in our understanding of G-d.  But we are not G-d and only he
    knows everything and commands us all.  Yes devotional service to G-d is
    very important and is the bases of Hinduism the betterment of society by 
    uplifting society spritually.  I won't go on because it's another
    subject but at least there is common ground and I can say I understand
    you.
    
>Just in case you don't understand the bible "thumping" thing, the quotes
>in .6 were all from the Christian bible and are out of place in this
>conference.
    
    Dave I do understand this I had over 20 years in England and else where
    and have heard it all before.  I can understand your point of view.
    
    By the way why do you spell G-d with a "-" ?
    
    Best wishes to you all
    
    Sunil

>    By the way why do you spell G-d with a "-" ?

Another frequently asked question! Jews are not supposed to erase G-d's
name nor destroy any document containing any proper name of G-d. Any such
document must be buried like in a funeral. To avoid creating pieces of paper
that cannot be tossed in the waste basket, we abbreviate or alter the Name.

This said, it is technically OK to write G-d's name in a computer file
because this is not a "written" document. But most of us go ahead and
put in the hyphen anyway. Probably a good idea too because it simplifies
things if someone wants to print a copy of one of these notes.

Dave

    David,
    
    Well Hindus to have this kind of a problem in that we are ment to burn
    paper etc. that contains the name(s) of G-d.  I have problems at times
    when I want to burn the papers and put the ashes somewhere.  Not many
    Hindus do this now days and I feel guilty at times if I don't.
         
    Also any books or religious works that have the name of G-d can not be
    placed on the floor or at the feet.
    
    Thanks
    
    Sunil

re: .9 (Sunil)

	Hmmm, interesting the people you meet around...

	I take offense at some of your comments, Sunil, wrt ::CHRISTIAN. The
crack 'Tolerence comes from people who know what suffering is.' is not really
justified. However, let's not air our dirty laundry in this conference, ok?

	As for .6 (Ralph)

	Hi Ralph, I am a Christian, (and a mod of GOLF::CHRISTIAN - you're 
welcome to visit, anytime), I do, however question the wisdom of your
barage in this forum. 'The subtlety of a house-brick' perhaps?

	There are a number of topics in here (e.g. 484) where Yeshua == Messiah
are discussed in a less confrontational manner, perhaps a read through those
first??

	All in all, I feel that we, as Christians, should be _very_ sensitive,
as there has been much persecution of the Hebrew Children over the centuries in
the name of Jesus - so you can understand their 'sensitivity'.

	To all, G-d Bless, and have a meaningful Paesach,
							  hazza :*]