Conference taveng::bagels

>I hope you won't mind a question about Passover from a "gentile" Christian.
Your questions are welcome, pertinent, and perceptive!

>  What I have read in Exodus about passover is fairly
>undetailed - bitter herb, unleavened bread, lamb, remembering and explaining
Our tradition holds that, along with the written word, G-d gave Moses oral
instructions too (the oral law) on Mt. Sinai. The instructions in Exodus
and elsewhere are obviously incomplete. The oral law got written down
after the Romans destroyed the 2nd Temple when the ancient rabbis started
to worry that the tradition might be lost. This is the origin of the Talmud
and it is in the Talmud that the detailed instructions for Passover appear.

>to children what G-d did for "you" when you went free from Egypt.
Each Jew is to imagine that s/he personally was rescued from Egypt, for
had G-d not saved us we would still be there. Thus, I would not put
quote marks in that statement. "Egypt" is also a metaphor for "sin".

The rest of your questions are of the type "I wished I asked". Our Talmud
experts will no doubt provide some answers.

Dave

    I understand that you are asking for some concise answers here, which I
    am sure you will receive.
    
    If you want to delve further into this, any Jewish book store has a
    large selection on the subject.  I have a lengthy, detailed Haggadah 
    published by ArtScroll, for example.  It is shorter than War and Peace,
    but it is still very substantial -:)
    
    By the way, traditions vary slightly between the Ashkenazic
    (European/Russian) and the Sephardic (Mediterranean/Mideastern)
    communities.  For example, in Sephardic tradition the first born of
    each family must eat a hard-boiled egg.  Most customs for the Seder are
    the same.
    
    Good luck in your query.  It is heartening that you show such interest.
    
    Thanks,
    Laura 
    
    

RE:        <<< Note 1169.1 by DECSIM::DECSIM::GROSS "The bug stops here" >>>

>>Our tradition holds that, along with the written word, G-d gave Moses oral
>>instructions too (the oral law) on Mt. Sinai. The instructions in Exodus
>>and elsewhere are obviously incomplete. The oral law got written down
>>after the Romans destroyed the 2nd Temple when the ancient rabbis started
>>to worry that the tradition might be lost. This is the origin of the Talmud
>>and it is in the Talmud that the detailed instructions for Passover appear.

Thanks Dave,

This is the type of information I was looking for, only perhaps in a little
more detail.

>>Each Jew is to imagine that s/he personally was rescued from Egypt, for
>>had G-d not saved us we would still be there. Thus, I would not put
>>quote marks in that statement. "Egypt" is also a metaphor for "sin".

I was aware that this is true which is why I used the word you instead of
something like the ancient Hebrews under Moses or something like that, but
then I got a little muddled and couldn't decide whether to show that it was
historical also but also applied now ... hence the quotes.  Now I know 
though that I didn't need to bother with the quotes :-).

Leslie

RE:                 <<< Note 1169.2 by TNPUBS::STEINHART >>>

Thanks also Laura.

>>    If you want to delve further into this, any Jewish book store has a
>>    large selection on the subject.  

Anybody know where might I find a Jewish book store somewhere in the 
Nashua/Merrimack/Manchester area - ie Southern New Hampshire ?  I could 
get down to places like Lowell, MA and Chelmsford easy enough too.
How would such a bookstore react to a curious Christian like me coming
in to look for information ?

Thanks again,

Leslie

The closest Jewish bookstore that I know of is in Brookline, MA.  It's Israel
Bookshop.

Gav

A block and a half down the street from the Israel Bookstore is Kolbo,
which is smaller, but is very friendly and has a very good selection.

Any large general bookstore (e.g., the Barnes & Noble on DW Highway in S.
Nashua) have good Judaica sections. One book that I have been recommending
to non-Jewish friends (available in many bookstores) is "The Jewish
Holidays" by Michael Strassfeld (my Rabbi, Everett Gendler, did some of the
sidebar commentary), the first chapter of which is about Passover.

Kolbo has some nice objets d'art, but their selection of books is *much*
smaller than the Israel Book Shop.  I don't think you'll have any problem
with the people who run the Israel Book Shop -- they deal with all kinds
of customers all the time.

    The larger public libraries probably have books on the topic, as well.
    
    I second the recommend of the Strassfelds' books.  They are very "user
    friendly".
    
    Laura

    Can someone please post the 4 questions, both in English and Hebrew
    transliteration? 
    
    thanks!
    

From the Maxwell House Coffee Haggadah (some day I'll get a good set)...

Wherefore is this night distinguished from all other nights? Any
other night we may eat either leavened or unleavened bread, but on this
night only unleavened bread; all other nights we may eat any species of
herbs, but this night only bitter herbs; all other nights we do not dip
even once, but on this night twice; all other nights we eat and drink
either sitting or reclined, but on this night we all of us recline.

Ma nish-ta-naw ha-lai-law ha-zeh mee-kawl ha-lay-los? She-b'chawl
ha-lay-los aw-nu o-ch'leen chaw-maytz u-ma-tzaw, ha-lai-law ha-zeh
ku-lo ma-tzaw. She-b'chawl ha-lay-los aw-nu o-ch'leen ch'awr y'raw-kos,
ha-lai-law ha-zeh maw-ror. She-b'chawl ha-lay-los ayn aw-nu mat-bee-leen
a-fee-lu pa-am e-chos, a-lai-law ha-zeh sh'tay f'aw-meem. She-b'chawl
ha-lay-los aw-nu o-ch'leen bayn yo-sh'veen u-vayn m'su-been, ha-lai-law
ha-zeh ku-law-nu m'su-been.

This is an Ashkenazic transliteration. To change to Sephardic, here is
a rule that works for this paragraph. Change all the "aw" sounds to "ah"
and change the "s" sound to "t" when it appears at the end of a word.

Dave

    Hi Deb,
    
    I take it your son will be "it" this year? -:) -:)
    
    May he learn well - he's about 3, right?  Such a smart boychik! -;)
    
    (My daughter's next - but she doesn't even say Mommy yet.)
    
    Congratulations, I'm happy for you, 
    Laura

    Hi Laura!!  Hahaha!  Yes, you guessed it!  Marc is only 2 1/2, but he
    is capable of memorizing entire Dr. Suess books, so I figure I'd give
    it a shot this year, at least one question!  My brother (age 26) will
    be _so_ happy :-))

    Heck, better to fill his head with "ma nishtana ha laila haze" than "I
    do not like it, Sam-I-am", right? -:)
    
    imho, I think it would be easier to teach him the Hebrew because it is
    chanted.  I would use the English translation to teach him what the
    chant means, but see if he can manage the Hebrew chant at the seder.
    
    The Israel Bookstore in Brookline has a lot of Passover books, audio
    tapes of songs, and that nifty seder video.  I'm sure they have a tape
    with ma nishtana.  Well, if he can listen to Raffi, why not the Boyz in
    the Cheder do Pesach? -:)
    
    Laura

    re.   earlier-
    
    How could you even consider replacing the Maxwell House haggadahs?
    
    I was raised to believe that they were the only official ones!
    
    	-Barry-
    

	RE:  1169.10 


>> From the Maxwell House Coffee Haggadah 

	Please tell me that this is a joke...

	Delia

>               -< What next? The Jack Daniels etc. Haggadah? >-
>
>> From the Maxwell House Coffee Haggadah 
>
>	Please tell me that this is a joke...

Not a joke. For a *long* time Maxwell House was the only producer of
kosher-for-Passover coffee (at least here in the states). For publicity
they have distributed free Haggadahs in grocery stores in many
neighborhoods for generations. I just checked and one of mine has a
1989 date, so they are still doing it.

Jack Daniels is chumatz (fermented grain) and cannot be kosher for Passover.

Dave

    Don't be too surprised if you kid can sing through the whole thing and
    then refuses to do so in "public" at the seder - I am still waiting for
    my shy neices and nephews to do it - I know they can sing the whole
    thing since I have heard them do it away from the holiday table, but
    the presence of of whole roomful of aunts and uncles and other adults
    that they mostly only see at holidays unhinges them and all four of
    them hide!  Two of them are actually old enough to "perform" in public.
    Oh, well, maybe THIS year?
    
    /Charlotte

Someone was kind enough to give me directions to the Israel Bookshop in
Brookline, but I've misplaced my notes.  Can someone give me directions
in here please ? I think my husband and I will try to get there this 
Sunday afternoon.

We will be coming from New Hampshire and we don't know Brookline at all.
Usually when we go into Boston or Cambridge, we park at the Alewife T
Station and use the T and walking to get everywhere else.  Can we get to
the book store via the T and walking ?  And if so, directions please ...
Thanks.  Should I call to make sure they are open on Sunday afternoon or
can I just expect that they will be open ?

Thanks much,

Leslie

PS. I did find, quite by accident, a Haggadah which has a little of the 
    history that I was looking for, in a children's book store in Nashua.
    It is the 2nd Revised Edition of the New Union Haggada prepared by 
    the Central Conference of American Rabbis and published by Penguin
    Books.

Israel Bookstore is on Harvard Ave, kind of midway between Beacon Street and
Commonwealth Ave. There is a small parking lot right behind the bookstore.
I would feel confident driving directly to the store on Sunday when the
meters are free anyway.

If you insist on taking the 'T', change at Park St. Station for the Green
Line and take a Cleveland Circle car. Get off at Harvard Ave and walk
north (if you face in the direction your car was moving, turn 90 degrees right).
Israel Bookstore will be several blocks up on your left.

I like to pick up some bagels when I'm in that neighborhood.

Dave

If you're driving from NH, the easiest way is to take 128 south to route 30
east (just past the Mass Pike exit), take route 30 (which is Commonwealth Ave)
about 7 or 8 miles to Harvard Street -- you'll see Marty's Liquors on the
left and Pizzeria Uno on the right -- and turn right onto Harvard Street.
The Israel Book Shop is maybe 6 or 7 blocks down on the right at number 410.
Sunday afternoon is their busiest time.

>If you insist on taking the 'T', change at Park St. Station for the Green
>Line and take a Cleveland Circle car. Get off at Harvard Ave and walk

  This should be Harvard Street.  Take the 'C' Branch of the Green Line which
  goes to Cleveland Circle and get off at Coolidge Corner.  Coolidge Corner is
  about 4 stops after the trolley exits the tunnel at St Mary's right after
  Kenmore Square.  Coolidge Corner has Brooks Drugs and CVS on the two corners
  on the right where the stop is.  Take a right down Harvard Street at it is
  about 4 blocks down on the left hand side of the street after Temple
  Kehilleth Israel.  I live in Coolidge Corner so my directions should be
  correct.

		Danny

Thank you everybody.  I'm taking the directions for car and for the T
home with me, and we'll decide which way to get there sometime before
we start out.

Leslie

Just wanted to let you all no that we had a successful trip, and to thank you
once again for directions.

We drove, and parked in the small lot behind the bookstore.  We picked up a
few books - Michael Strassfeld's "The Jewish Holidays - A Guide and Commentary",
"Aspects of Jewish Belief" by Alexander Feinsilver, and "The Book of Jewish
Belief" by Louis Jacobs, . . . oh, and a cookbook :-).  I looked at all the
Haggadahs, and decided the one that I'd gotten at the children's bookstore
was enough.  In fact, I saw it there at the store with all the others (lots and
lots of others !)  The store was crowded, but friendly enough and we didn't 
feel at all uncomfortable being there.  

Then we had lunch at a deli - Rubin's down the street, and bought a bunch of 
bagels and other assorted goodies to take home with us at a bakery (Koppel's
maybe ?) across the street from the bookstore.

All in all, a nice afternoon, and I've found the first 4 chapters of Jacob's
book to be pretty interesting.  He's a very lucid writer.

Leslie

    I'm happy to report that my son (2 1/2) did an _excellent_ job on the
    first question of the manishtanah, even in front of aunts, uncles,
    cousins, etc.  He even did it at _both_ seders!  Boy, was I proud! 
    Next year, we'll definitely shoot for all four!

    Deb,
    
>    I'm happy to report that my son (2 1/2) did an _excellent_ job on the
>    first question of the manishtanah, even in front of aunts, uncles,
>    cousins, etc.  He even did it at _both_ seders!  Boy, was I proud! 
>    Next year, we'll definitely shoot for all four!
    
    Next year, all four IN JERUSALEM!
    
    Congratulation
    
    Haim
    

    CONGRATULATIONS Deb!  Your boychik is really smart.  (As if you didn't
    know all along. . .) 
    
    It was my Ilona's second Passover this year.  She's 18 months.  I was
    very proud that she shared my Hillel sandwich (matzah, charoses,
    lettuce, horseradish - Sephardic style) and that she dipped her parsley
    in salt water.  She is becoming proficient in licking the margarine off
    the matzah (greasy little hands).  I thought she'd love charoses, but
    she prefers her apples plain.  We got 2 boxes of the Passover cereal
    rings but she doesn't like them as much as Cheerios.  Sad fact is, they
    taste gummy in milk.
    
    On Sunday we watched Shalom Sesame on public TV.  We even got it on
    tape, along with the gumby-type seder.  Her daycare provider is playing
    the tape for the kiddos this week.

    
    
    
    Our little nephew kept saying he would sing the manishtanah, and I know
    he knows it, but he got too shy before all the relatives and left it to
    his older sister (she is 5-6) - maybe next year?  
    
    I can see why even a little kid won't eat that pesachdic cereal
    (matzoh-Os?) - it is pretty bad!  I think it is mostly potato starch
    and sugar.  It is a bit better if you mix it about half and half with
    sliced bananas...  I didn't bother to buy any this time around since
    most of it got thrown out last year - the holiday is costly enough
    without buying stuff that I *know* we are not going to actually eat...
    
    Laura Steinhart is going to mail me some literature from Weight
    Watcher's on surviving Passover.  I'm hoping it will have some
    breakfast ideas, since Paul is not supposed to be eating so much
    cholesterol and I can't take fried matzoh first thing in the morning.
    
    /Charlotte                 

    
    Passover with out high cholesteral?  Definetly a chore.
    
    This year we sang a song that described the four children song to the
    tune of O'Clementine.  Does anyone else have the words?  I meant to
    type it in today but left the words on Long Island.  Should I have my
    parent's mail it up, or does someone else have them?
    
    AMy
    

    
    My brother-in-law was singing it too, and he works on Long Island -
    must be a new one, because I never heard it before!  I didn't get the
    words either - it was an improvement on the "Frogs" number, which my
    nieces and nephews did not feel compelled to sing this year.
    
    On a more serious note, I still have a question about the seder. 
    Actually this isn't even really related to Passover except that on
    Passover various relatives who may know the regulations better than I
    do are likely to be around, waiting for the seders to start, at the
    beginning of both days of it.  Our haggadah has you lighting the
    havdalah candle after the seder has already started (with the same
    wording as for the second day of other festivals - not unique to
    Pesach).  At this point you would normally have already lit the
    festival candles.  I think we argued about this the last time it
    occurred but I don't remember what we ended up doing.  This year, Paul
    quoted a rabbinic ruling we had gotten that you can light the havdalah
    candle any time up to the following Tuesday evening, if you did not
    manage to light it on time, and we lit the festival candles at the
    start of the second seder and made havdalah when we got to it in the
    haggadah a few minutes later.  Otherwise we would have had an interval
    of time between the havdalah and the festival candles which would not
    have been part of any "day", which seemed unreasonable.  What did the
    rest of you (outside Israel) do?
    
    /Charlotte

When a yom tov falls on Saturday night, you say a shortened havdalah in the
kiddush, but you don't light a candle.  The bracha "boreh m'oreh ha'esh" is
said over an existing light such as the yom tov candles or even the room
lights.

Under normal circumstances, you can say havdalah up until Tuesday night,
but since you can't eat until after you've heard havdalah, this has little
practical importance.

    re .28
    
    The words to the song can be found (among other places) in the Wings of
    Freedom Haggadah, developed for Hillel by Rabbi Richard N. Levy, of the
    Hillel Foundation Los Angeles Region.
    
    re .29
    
    One does not light a separate havdalah candle--the festival candles for
    the second night serve a dual purpose.  One reason for this is that one
    may *light* candles on the hag (after Shabbat), but not extinguish
    them.  Thus, if you actually light your regular havdalah candle, you
    have to let it burn out.  (This assumes that you are observing Yom Tov
    Sheni, in which case the separation is between "qodesh v'qodesh" rather
    than between "qodesh v'hol.")
    
                                       Aaron

    We did light the havdalah candle (and extinguish it).  Oh, well, maybe
    next time the situation occurs I will remember the answer?  We spent a
    bunch of time arguing about how come the havdalah included in the
    haggadah did not use the spicebox - that must be part of what got
    abbreviated?  To tell you the truth, we do not usually do havdalah
    anyhow (which is probably why no one knew the answer).
    
    /Charlotte

    
    Re: .32 (Charlotte)
    
    > We spent a
    >bunch of time arguing about how come the havdalah included in the
    >haggadah did not use the spicebox - 
    
    One reason given for smelling the sweet smells after Shabbat
    is to ameliorate our sadness at the departure of the Day of
    Rest. Others say it helps symbolically infuse one with the
    strength to return to the word-a-day world.
    
    In either case, this only applies when Shabbat is followed
    by a weekday, but when it is followed by a holiday (Yom
    Tov), neither reason applies.
    
    Another reason given is that a person is imbued with an
    "extra soul" on Shabbat. This is not the case on Yom Tov,
    and therefore one doesn't experience the same depressed
    feeling as on Motzaei Shabbat, ergo the besamim are not 
    needed on Motzaei Yom Tov. According to this line, the
    reason besamim are not used on a Motzaei Shabbat followed
    by Yom Tov is simply because the pleasant meals of the
    upcoming Yom Tov serve to comfort one for his departing
    "neshama yeteira" as the sweet-spices normally do.
    
    Jem
    

    I can't sing all of it in my head, it just doesn't go... But, I 
    think I got most of it from the ditto my Mom sent up to me.  It
    was quite the hit this year.
    
			The Ballad Of the Four Sons
			   (to the tune of 
			   O, My Darling Clementine)

1					6
Said the father to his children,	"So we follow their example
"At the Seder you will dine,		And 'ere midnight must complete
You will eat your fill of Matzoh	All the Seder, and we should not
You will drink four cups of wine."	After 12 remain to eat."

2					7
Now this father had no daughters	Then did sneer the son so wicked
But his sons they numbered four;	"What does all this mean to you?"
One was wise and one was wicked,	And the father's voice was bitter
One was simple and a bore.		As his grief and anger grew.

3					8
And the fourth was sweet and winsome,	"If yourself you don't consider
He was young and he was small;		As a son of Israel,
While his brothers asked the questions	Then for you this has no meaning
He could scarcely speak at all.		You could be a slave a well."
	
4					9
Said the wise son to his father		Then the simple son said simply,
"Would you please explain the laws.	"What is this?" and quietly,
And the custom of the Seder,		The good father told his offspring
Will you please explain the cause?"	"We were freed from slavery."

5					10
And the father proudly answered,	But the yougest son was silent
"As our fathers ate in spead,		For he could not ask at all.
Ate the paschal lamb 'ere midnight	His bright eyes were bright with
And from slavery were freed."				wonder
					As his father told him all.


				11
			Now dear children, heed the lesson and
			Remember evermore
			What the father told his children,
			Told his sons that numbered four.

    
    By the way: For both the Wise child and the Wicked one, the Hagadah
    we used referenced the same passage.  I know the difference is 
    about whether the child includes himself in the happenings.  How
    is this shown if the Bible reference is the same passage, and the 
    hebrew words for the questions are the same?  Another Hagadah had
    the english and hebrew for the children's questions and the wicked and 
    wise were the same words.
    
    I am missing something...
    AMy