Conference taveng::bagels

    Dear Caryn,
    
    You are not nuts at all.  As a resident of a suburban town in New
    Hampshire, I share your concerns.
    
    On my resolutions list for 1992 is to get more closely involved with
    the local Jewish group.  In the last couple of years, several dedicated
    individuals in my area got together to form a Jewish group.  They
    started out sponsoring a Chanuka party and other social events.  They
    have now arranged for a branch of the Manchester Hebrew school to start
    in our area.  I just got a mailing from a new Hadassah chapter.  They
    list events in the local newspaper's religion page, and have reached
    many non-affiliated people this way.
    
    Is there a local organization you can contact for support?  If not,
    have you considered starting one?
    
    Laura

    Hey, I'm an atheist and not a Jew, but I find it offensive as well.
    It doesn't help that I know of Christians who are offended by trees
    and bunnies because they are pagan--two offenses do not make a 
    multi-cultural right!
    
    It's even worse when what they teach is untrue: the "rest of the
    world" doesn't, in general, do Christmas at all: outside of Europe
    and the Americas, most of them are Muslim, Confucian, Buddhist,
    Hindu, Jain, Marxist etc., etc. 
    
    I used to not sing or say the religious parts of songs and things
    like the Pledge of Allegience and Boy Scout Oath.  No one ever gave
    me a hard time about it, but I still wished the words had not been
    there--and not saying something isn't the same thing as having the
    words not be there: you're still in some sense assumed to have said
    them.
    
    		-John Bishop

    Dear Caryn,
    
    I think you have a right to be concerned.  I ran into the same sort of
    situation when my daughter entered our local elementary school.  While
    she was in the early grades, I made arrangements with her teachers to
    do a lession each year on Rosh Hashonah, Yom Kippur, Pesach and
    Chanukah.  I explained to the class and the teachers what the holiday's
    significance was and why it was not related to any Christian holiday
    that fell near it.
    
    Once my daughter got older, she did the lessions.  
    
    The teachers seemed supportive as it got them out of the middle.
    
    There is a series of small soft covered books that describes the Jewish
    Holidays in terms that a youngster of any religion can understand. 
    I used these books as the basis for my lessions.  Unfortunately, I
    passed them on once my daughter got older, so I cannot give you their
    names.
    
    Good luck.
    
    Milt
    

I sympathize, Caryn.  I live in a town where, I believe, my son was the first
Jewish child to graduate from the high school.  We got involved to ensure that
Hannukah got equal billing with Christmas.  However, I don't believe that 
EITHER holiday has a place in the schools.  The fact that we do this is, I fear,
a result of living in a Christian society,  which we do, no matter what people
may try to tell you.

One comment I invariably get every year is that "Christmas is a secular
holdiay, not a religious one."  The sad thing is that this is ALMOST true.
I have been very successful pushing back by telling these people that they
have taken their own very beautiful, significant holiday and made a
shambles of it by commercializing and secularizing it.  That usually makes
them stop and think about what they are saying.

Regardless of what happens in the school, the post office or any place else,
it is very important that your children have a strong sense of their own
identify and the significance of their heritage.  When I was growing up, 
my family wasn't very religious, but we did celebrate the major holidays, and 
as far back as I can remember, I never wanted a Christmas tree.  I enjoyed my 
neighbors's displays (and I still do), but it was always their holiday, not 
mine. I really like listening to some of the Christmas music; from an 
aesthetic viewpoint, it's beautiful; but I don't celebrate the holiday - it's 
not mine.  I am a Jew, and I do my best to live as a Jew.  I'm not perfect,
but I try to keep improving as I get older.  I have tried to install this same 
feeling in my own children by giving them a strong sense of their own identity,
the importance of the Jewish people throughout history and the certainty that 
we, as Jews, have a vital place in the future.

Raising our children as Jews is not always easy.  Good luck.

   Ben

    There is certainly a strong (to be kind) "inertia" in the mind-set of
    the public school hierarchy to answer the question "What kinds of
    programs should we present (or encourage the teachers/children to
    present) during the month of December?" with "Christmas programs".
    Obviously the prevailing view in this conference is that the public
    schools shouldn't present programs dealing with any religion
    (separation of church and state and all that good stuff). However,
    unfortunately, it takes a rather sophisticated person/school system 
    to realize and/or accept that having Holiday programs that present 
    customs of a lot of religions is not separating church and state, it 
    is merely being ecumenical or inclusive about NOT separating church 
    and state.
    
    It is more difficult (I believe) to explain to a Post Office (or Fire
    Department or Highway Department) that decorating their building with
    colored lights in December is (or should be) unconstitutional.
    
    Interestingly there has been a brouhaha going on in Weston (MA), hardly
    an unsophisticated town, for the past year or so about whether it is 
    appropriate to hang unadorned evergreen wreaths in the public schools. 
    The predictable two camps have arisen. Those for the wreaths either 
    say it is not associated with any religion or, even if it is, that 
    religion's important December holiday should be celebrated in the public 
    schools; Those against say that, like it or not, wreaths are an 
    expression of the celebration of Christmas, and the celebration of 
    Christmas schould not be in the public schools.
    
    One thing I find mildly bothersome is where to draw the line, for
    instance, even though I intellectually know that Frosty the Snowman
    probably has nothing to do with any religious celebration, I cannot
    help but put that song in the same category as Jingle Bells or Rudolph
    the Red-nosed Reindeer.
    
    I also find it difficult reconciling my daughters' annoyance with the
    amount of Chistmas media blitz they are subjected to (from the beginning of
    November, it seems nowadays) with the feeling that they should
    recognize the meaning of Chistmas to their non-Jewish friends.
    
    Dick

Thank you for your replies.  I know this is a common issue wherever we
raise our Jewish children in a predominantly non-Jewish community.

I recognize that the reason this is even an issue for me is because we are
Jews in a Christian community.

BUT, the heart of the issue for me is not to preserve my children's sense
of identity, but to take religion out of the schools where it does not
belong in the first place.  There wouldn't be, IMO, as much of an "identity
crisis", if you will, for us or our kids if religious holidays weren't
emphasized in public schools and government buildings.

When I think about it further, the fact that the Post Office is closed on
Christmas seems wrong.  Why should any government office be closed in
observance of any religious holiday?  Schools get around this by having
their mid-winter break planned around the day that Christmas falls on.

I agree that Christmas has been made into a rather secular holiday, but it
is ALSO and PRIMARILY (just ask the Pope) a religious holiday.  Ditto for
Easter.  Easter bunnies may pop out of every corner in April, but I'd bet
my bottom dollar that if you ask a Christian what Easter is about, the word
"resurrection" will pop up somewhere.

The bottom line is that schools and government offices participating in
activities that celebrate any religious holiday is unconstitutional. It
goes against the Constitutions guarantee of "separation of church and
state".

I don't think the answer is giving Jewish holidays equal billing, because
that leaves out all the Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Jain, Wicca, etc etc etc
holidays.

Schools should either have a section of cultural study on the religions of
the world, and do them ALL justice, or stay out of it altogether!  

And Post Offices and Government offices should stop celebrating religious
holidays altogether (creches, Christmas trees, lights, holiday stamps - I
actually got a Chanukah card this year with a Christmas stamp on it -talk
about confued!)

So there's my 20� worth.  I'm working up the chutzpah to go to my son's
principal to talk with him about it.  I'm not convinced I'll make any major
changes in our school system, but at least I'll have been heard.


~Caryn

    Caryn,
    
    On the way home I thought of another way to find other local Jewish
    parents to stand with you.  Ask around in your synagogue - you should
    be able to find other Jewish parents from your town.  They probably
    have a carpool to take the kids for Hebrew lessons!  
    
    This will be much less stressful if you are not alone.  People need to
    realize you are not some kind of freak, that there are many Jews in the
    community with the same concerns.
    
    Your synagogue may also be able to provide staff support - such as
    through the rabbi or Hebrew school administrator.  The Nashua synagogue
    (Temple Beth Abraham) has a committee to deal with such issues, as well
    as combatting anti-Semitism.
    
    Laura

    While I agree with the basic intent of this discussion -- keeping
    Jewish children Jewish -- there are some points that bother me.
    
    There's ranting about "separation of church and state".  The
    Constitutional prohibition is against establishing an official
    religion, not putting up force fields betweeen government and
    religion.  As we're seeing now at Digital, it's healthier to
    value differences rather than ignore them.  I also have an ideological
    problem demanding absolute separation of church and state in the
    US, when I enjoy the integration of these elements (at least as
    far as getting the hagim off from work) in Israel.  Shouldn't our
    pure democratic priciples apply universally?  Do Israeli Muslims,
    Christians, Druzim, etc. feel the same way we do?
    
    One radical solution that worked: I attended a Catholic school.
    In that environment, it was obvious that some events were
    "their holidays", and not mine.  Eventually our rabbi came in and
    taught some religion classes, and everyone benefitted.
    
    Good luck,
    
    /dk

    re .8, valuing differences vs ignoring them
    
    So what would be done to represent the atheists?  Who
    would come in and give a talk about the Non-holidays?
    I much prefer the "force fields", thanks.
    
    Worse, given that there are about 5000 religions, when 
    would there be time for any non-religious school work, if
    someone were to come in and teach classes for each?
    
    		-John Bishop

>    There's ranting about "separation of church and state".  The
>    Constitutional prohibition is against establishing an official
>    religion, not putting up force fields betweeen government and
>    religion.  As we're seeing now at Digital, it's healthier to
>    value differences rather than ignore them.  I also have an ideological
>    problem demanding absolute separation of church and state in the
>    US, when I enjoy the integration of these elements (at least as
>    far as getting the hagim off from work) in Israel.  Shouldn't our
>    pure democratic priciples apply universally?  Do Israeli Muslims,
>    Christians, Druzim, etc. feel the same way we do?

    	I don't think this is quite straight.

	Israel makes "no bones about it"; it's not a theocracy, by
	any means, but it *is* a "Jewish State" (read the
	first few lines of the megillat ha'atsmaut).  That's not
	the same thing as a "democracy", and is one of the prime
	sources of discord in this country (though people don't want,
	too much, to call it by those names).  In any case, survey
	after survey show dramatic overwhelming majorities of Israeli
	Jews of all stripes want to maintain "the Jewish Nature of the
	State."

	The US has official separation of church and state. What the
	"founding fathers" in the US meant by not establishing a "State
	religion" was that there would be no formal $$ given to particular
	religions.  To the best of my knowledge, this is still true in the
	US.  However, what is also true in the US is that there is
	a dramatic overwhelming majority of Christians of one-feather-or-
	another.  The "in fact" situation is that there *is* an over-
	riding national culture (religion?), in practice; perhaps it 
	*should* be that way, given the strength of the majority 
	(notwithstanding "separation...").

	So, face it:  America has a Christian culture. A "melting pot"
	of various pieces of various Christian religions are simply the 
	reality. I think that asking for "equal time" for Jews is ignoring 
	that fact. And, as was pointed out several replies ago, that also 
	ignores American Muslims, Baha'is, ...   Do you think all of them 
	should have "equal time,"  also?  I'm not so sure.

	Being a part of a very small minority, under a very strong majority,
	I think puts the onus on the individual (and support groups) to
	maintain the values of that minority.  For this reason, I don't
	think it reasonable to request taking down Christmas decorations
	from the firehouse, so to speak.  Those decorations reflect the
	culture of the vast majority, for better or worse -- for "religious"
	reasons, or for "secular" reasons.

	The inverse is also true.  Should the <2% Christian minority in
	Israel be able to "go to court" and force the government to take
	down the menorahs that are hung from virtually every public building 
	during 	Chanukah, because Israel is a "democracy?"  Or the Druse? Or the
	Muslims? I also think not.

	Valuing differences?  Yes, absolutely!  But, I'm not sure that
	"valuing differences" is the same thing as "equal time". I think
	that "valuing differences" is having respect for others and for their 
	beliefs, and allowing them free practice of their beliefs.  For
	that reason, as an American, I wouldn't expect US schools to try
	to "convert" my children. But that's not the same thing as restricting 
	*your own* (as a majority American) beliefs or practices, whether 
	it's Santa Claus in American schools, or (as a majority Israeli) the 
	teaching of Jewish culture/holidays, etc., in the "secular" schools 
	here in Israel.

	It's our job, as individuals, to teach our children our religious
	values, and to teach them that there are children with other
	values.  We're not so naive to believe that there aren't serious
	conflicts among those values.  That's "a problem" with no solution.
	If you want to live in a place where your values are valued by the
	majority, you're going to have to live in a place where your values
	are in the majority.  Is that a tautology (or a plug for aliyah)?

don feinberg