Conference taveng::bagels

Welcome to the conference!

>1. What are "phylacteries"? Something needed for ritual prayers?
Quick answer: yes. These are worn during weekday morning prayers. They
are two little black boxes with leather straps. One is worn on the forehead
and the other on the left arm (next to the heart). They contain parchments
with quotations from the Torah (Deuteronomy 6 - something, if I remember
correctly).

>2. What are "bagels"? One topic of this conference was named bagels 
>but what is it exactly? A cookie, pastry...?
They are rolls, i.e. bread, in the shape of a doughnut. They originated in
Eastern Europe and have become popular in the USA lately. The dough is
boiled before it is baked, which gives the bagel a tough, chewy crust.

>3. What are elflocks?
I don't know either. Chassidic Jews tend to wear their hair long and it
probably has to do with that.

>4. I was startled when reading that Jewish women shave their heads 
>after getting married and wearing kerchiefs. Is this still so and does 
>shave really mean they are bald afterwards?
Shaving the head would be very rare. The Orthodox custom is for married
women to cover their hair in public (Moslems have a similar custom). There
was a discussion of this topic in here recently. The custom is observed only
in the most strictly observant families. A kerchief, hat, or wig (!) can
be used to cover the hair. The uncovered hair is considered a form of nakedness.
There is no requirement to actually shave the head.

>5. I noticed also that in your conference you never fully write the 
>name of the Lord but spell it "G__d". Why? Is it regarded blasphemy?
There are 2 points here. An observant Jew does not use the name of G-d
in writing or in speech except for some serious purpose such as prayer.
There are plenty of acceptable euphemisms to use instead.
More to the point though is that it is forbidden to erase the name of G-d
or to destroy a paper containing the name of G-d. (Old prayer books, etc.
should be buried, not burned nor discarded for example.) Turning off your
terminal is not considered "erasing", so the dash is not really required in
this conference, but the habit is hard for many of us to break.

Dave

I've never heard of elflocks either, but perhaps it refers to payos, which
I've sometimes seen referred to as "earlocks."  These are locks of hair
that grow from the area above the sideburns.  They're allowed to grow long
in deference to the Bibical injunction to not shave the corners of the beard.
Contrary to what .1 said, chasidim over the age of 3 usually have very short
hair except for their payos.

Regarding married women shaving their heads, there are some chasidim who do
this, but the vast majority of women who cover their hair don't shave their
heads.

    American Heritage Dictionary:
    
    elflock   A tangled lock of hair
    elf       A small, often mischievous creature considered to have
              magical powers
    
    As previous reply said, I think you may have seen "earlocks", an
    English word sometimes used to describe "payess" or "payot" ( in
    different Hebrew dialects), but remembered "elflocks".  
    
    Laura
    

The discussion in note 1125 has made me aware that I know next to nothing
about Jewish law regarding cutting of hair. Gerald, in note 1125.2,
points out a Biblical injunction against shaving the corners of the beard.
I vaguely remember that a man is not supposed to shave with a blade
but that scissors are OK. I also thought that this was the reason for
the classic image of the aged Jewish man with the full beard and grey
hair. I also thought that cutting hair was affected, somehow, by Jewish
laws prohibiting self-mutilation. 

Can anyone fill me in on this? I am particularly mystified by the suggestion
in 1125 that it is OK for a woman to use a razor to shave her head whereas
a man should not use one to shave his beard. Also, aren't there some Jews who
wear long hair as a matter of custom, if not of law?

DAve

Since the prohibition is against shaving the corners of the beard, women
are clearly exempt.  If it's OK for a man to shave his head (I'm not sure
that it is), then it should be OK for him to use a razor.  Orthodox men
who shave use electric razors since the blade doesn't touch the skin.

The prohibition against mutilation doesn't include shaving, but it does
include tattooing.

Thanks to all of you who were so kind to "enlighten" me. Special 
thanks to .1 Dave for the very detailed explanations.

Irene

    	During the middle ages in Poland between about 500 AD to about
    1500 AD the lord of the land was allowed to go to bed with a bride
    on her wedding night before the groom went to bed with her. The Jews
    did not like this custom so the Polish Jewish brides shaved their heads
    so that they would not be appealing to the land lord. This custom has
    nothing to do with the Jewish religion. Any Jewish woman who practices
    this custom has lost its true significance through the ages and they
    think it is a Jewish thing to do.

    Re: .7
    
    I do not believe that those "sects" in which the married women shave
    their heads base this practice on what .7 claims.
    
    In fact, this practice is relatively "modern" and is based on several
    responsa, primarily from Hungarian luminaries, who maintain that long
    hair which could easily become knotted and entangled might be
    considered an obstacle ("chatziza") during emersion ("tvila").
    
    Thanks,
    
    Cb.

.8>        In fact, this practice [married women shaving their heads]
.8>        is relatively "modern" and is based on several responsa,
.8>        primarily from Hungarian luminaries, who maintain that long
.8>        hair which could easily become knotted and entangled might be
.8>        considered an obstacle ("chatziza") during emersion ("tvila").

It shouldn't be necessary to shave the head to avoid having long hair.  Are men
who go to mikvah also supposed to shave their heads?  If not, why isn't this a
problem for them?

    Re: .9
    
    >It shouldn't be necessary to shave the head to avoid having long hair.  
    
    This is obviously the oppinion of the greatest majority of Poskim over
    the centuries; plus the fact that there does not seem to be anything in
    either the Talmud or the Rishonim which would seem to support this
    view.  
    
    >Are men who go to mikvah also supposed to shave their heads?  If not,
    >why isn't this a problem for them?
    
    Firstly, one cannot compare the Torah ("D'orisa") obligation of a woman
    to immerse in the mikvah to the practice of most Hassidic and some Litvish
    men who go to mikvah. The Poskim are much more stringant with Torah
    obligations.
    
    Secondly, most Hassidic men DO shave their heads except for the Payot;
    the reasoning being that it is NOT difficult to control a small part of
    hair from getting entangled to the point that it would be considered a
    "Chtziza".
    
    Thirdly, men do not grow long hair for reasons of vanity (I'm talking
    about religious men), hence even if there were an entanglement, it
    could be considered a "Chatziza" upon which one is NOT overly concerned
    ("makpid"), and is therefore NOT considered to be a "Chatziza". With
    regard to (most) women this is not the case, as (most) women grow long
    hair for reasons of vanity.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Cb.

re .9, .10:

I believe that men who go to the mikvah don't have to be at all concerned
about chatzitzot.  Since the destruction of the Temple, the only men for
whom going to the mikvah is more than a minhag are gerim (converts).
Whem women go to the mikveh, there's an attendant (shomeret, a.k.a. "mikveh
lady") who makes sure there are no chatzitzot and that the immersion is
complete.  I've never heard of anything like this for men.

There's a Latin term (that escapes me) for the right of the king to cohabit
with all brides.  According to a midrash, Besuel, Rivka's father, claimed
this right.  When his subjects heard that Rivka was to marry, they decided
that if Besuel didn't treat his own daughter as he had treated theirs,
they would kill him.  But Besuel's attempt to poison Eliezer backfired,
and he died before he could be put to the test.

    "Jus prima noctis" (plus or minus some Latin grammatical details).
    
    		-John Bishop

    re: .10
    
    How can you say religious men do not grow long hair for reasons of vanity
    but most women do?  Who can look inside another's heart?  Some men
    may have been very proud of their hair, some women not. 
    
    S.K.
    

    re .7
    
>    <<< Note 1125.7 by AIDEV::POLIKOFF "LMO2-1/C11 Marlboro MA 296-5391" >>>
>                           -< It is a Polish custom >-

>    	During the middle ages in Poland between about 500 AD to about
>    1500 AD the lord of the land was allowed to go to bed with a bride
>    on her wedding night before the groom went to bed with her.
    
    I'd appreciate it if you substantiate your claim. Else please delete
    or retract this stuff. Clearly you cannot substantiate this for the
    prehistoric times, and I seriously doubt you can substantiate this
    for the last centuries of the range. As it stands now it is at best
    an ethnic slur.
    
    Alex

    Re: .13
    
    >How can you say religious men do not grow long hair for reasons of vanity
    >but most women do?  Who can look inside another's heart?  Some men
    >may have been very proud of their hair, some women not. 
    
    No offense meant.
    
    I do not equate "being proud of" and "for reasons of vanity". Nor did I
    intend to imply that "for reasons of vanity" has any negative
    conotations. If my phraseology or choice of words has offended anyone,
    I sincerely apologize.
    
    I was merely trying to convey a certain Halachik concept and the
    ramifacations therefrom.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Cb.
    
    
    
    

        <I'd appreciate it if you substantiate your claim. Else please delete
    <or retract this stuff. Clearly you cannot substantiate this for the 
    <prehistoric times, and I seriously doubt you can substantiate this  
    <for the last centuries of the range. As it stands now it is at best 
    <an ethnic slur.                                                     

    	Are you saying that 500 AD is prehistoric ??????

    <I'd appreciate it if you substantiate your claim.

    	My grandmother who was a Polish Jew told me. My name Polikoff is
    Russian and it translates into English as "FROM POLAND" so I am Polish.

    	In the Middle Ages, most European "city states" and countries had
    the custom of the land lord going to bed with brides. See some of the
    earlier replies. There is even a Latin word for this custom. I am not
    making a racial slur by saying that this custom is Jewish Polish
    because most if not all the Jewish women who shave their heads are from
    Polish heritage.

    	The book and the movie Exodus also says that this is a Jewish
    Polish custom and even though it was a novel it relied heavily on
    facts.

    	The Jewish women from Spain, the Middle East, South India and Ethiopia
    do not shave their heads and they are just as religious as Eastern
    European Jews. It was not the custom in these countries for the landlord
    to go to bed with the brides so they had no need to make themselves
    unattractive to the landlord.

    		Arnie ( From Poland ) Polikoff from Upper U S :*)

I don't know whether the claim is true or not, and I don't doubt that
Poland has a shameful history of anti-Semitism (as the pope admits),
but "my grandmother told me" is not a convincing argument, especially
when the times predate your grandmother by several hundred years.

As has been mentioned, only a few groups of Chasidim shave their heads.
It's not a general custom of Polish Jews.  I also don't see why women
would continue to shave their heads after they were married if the intent
was to prevent the local nobleman from cohabiting with brides.

    Just because there's a word or phrase for a practice does not
    mean it is common or even exists.
    
    Typically, the people on the other side of the hill are said
    to practice cannibalism, incest and other bad things.  Reliable
    evidence of such practices is often hard to find (they do happen,
    but nowhere as often as accusations would have one believe).
    
    I've read lots of references to the "right of the first night",
    as it's a favorite device in fiction, but I have _not_, in my
    fairly wide reading of history and anthropology, seen statements
    to the effect that it was a wide-spread general practice anywhere.
    
    I have read of a symbolic deflowering of Roman brides in archaic
    times (they sat, clothed, on the lap of a statue); I have read of
    societies where young girls and boys were initiated into sex by
    older men and woman as part of their education; I have read of
    individual noblemen who exploited local girls.  I haven't read of
    an area where _jus_prima_noctis_ was expected practice.  Can 
    someone give references?
    
    		-John Bishop

From the Encyclopedia Britannica:

droit du seigneur, also known as jus primae noctis (Latin: "right of the
first night"), a feudal right said to have existed in medieval Europe
giving the lord to whom it belonged the right to sleep the first night
with the bride of any one of his vassals.  The custom is paralleled in
various primitive societies, but the evidence of its existence in Europe
is almost all indirect, involving records of redemption dues paid by the
vassal to avoid enforcement.  A considerable number of feudal rights
related to the vassal's marriage, particularly the lord's right to select
a bride for his vassal, but these were almost invariably redeemed by a
money payment or "avail"; and it seems likely that the droit du seigneur
amounted, in effect, only to another tax of this sort.

    re: going to bed with brides.
    
    How about an historic fact: Russia 18-19th centuries, when a landlord
    "pomeschic" did the same with brides?
    Or is it different because Russian landlord took Russian bride in the
    Russian bed?
    
    CEM�H.

    re .16
    
>    	Are you saying that 500 AD is prehistoric ??????
    
    Yes, indeed. For that part of Europe, 500-800 CE are prehistoric
    times, and by definition you cannot substantiate your claims.
    
>    	My grandmother who was a Polish Jew told me. My name Polikoff is
>   Russian and it translates into English as "FROM POLAND" so I am Polish.

    This is hardly a substantiation.
    
    Alex

    Even if Arnie is fuzzy or wrong, can we lose the charge of "ethnic
    slur" at least?
    
    Arnie didn't claim the droit du seigneur was a Polish custom
    particularly.  He'd heard it was a common custom in regions which
    include Poland, as I had and many others have -- and by the way I'm
    not the least surprised to see it characterized as an "urban myth"
    ( or whatever the corresponding term would be for a city-state :-)
    
    He did claim that Polish Jews were clever enough to find a way
    around the drat droit.  Where's the slur? whether or not it's legend.
    
    I won't intrude into any discussion of the likelihood that a
    persistent-state custom would stem from a one-time-event custom...
    though from the outside it looks as though many Jewish observances
    are carried through to circumstances beyond the scope of their
    [known or suspected] historical origin: a respectful homage to
    historical continuity, I might guess.
    						-JwT

re .22
>    Even if Arnie is fuzzy or wrong, can we lose the charge of
>    "ethnic slur" at least?

Sure, why not. I guess he did not mean it in that sense. However he is
certainly "fuzzy" and definitely wrong. As I indicated, there can be
no evidence for the prehistoric times (and I was generous: prehistoric
times in Poland might well be extended to 950 CE). Furthemore, Poland
did not have a large Jewish population until the XIII century, and for
the next two-three centuries Jews were to benefit from statutes that
protected Jews specifically, and provided for the overall tolerance
as Poland enjoyed its "golden age" (Polish anti-semitism is a relatively
recent phenomenon).

As far as I know, the "custom" exists only as a myth.

Alex