Conference taveng::bagels

    AMAZING !!!!!
    
    Jews - white, black, yellow, green and brown *ALL* do military service
    unless unfit medically or for some other reason (NOT COLOUR).
    
    Several very high-ranking officers (non-European Jews as you call them)
    spring to mind - Aluf Yitzhak Mordechai, head of Northern Command is
    an Iraqi Jew.  Tat-Aluf Avigdor Kahalani, famous war hero who was very
    seriously burned in battle, is of Yemenite Jewish origin.  And there
    are more, though it is too early for an Ethiopian Jew to have attained
    high rank in the Army.
    
    In the government, there is David Levi, the Foreign Minister, who is of
    Morrocan Jewish origin, and Moshe Kazav, the Transport Minister, who is
    Iraqi-born.  In the Knesset there are tens of members (out of the 120)
    who are not what you call European Jews.
    
    All through the public and commercial sectors you will find people who
    are of non-European origin.
    
    As I mentioned earlier it's too soon to find Ethiopian Jews (they are
    not called Falashas here), at the top of the ladder, but I am sure that
    that will come one day.
    
    As for "mingling", people do not look at each other's skin colour here
    before they decide to mix.   "Intermarriage" between the Jews of
    different origins is on the increase (for the good of all).
    
    IMHO, there is no comparison whatsoever with the position of the blacks
    today in the US or with that of their situation 30 years ago in the
    days of the Civil Rights marches.
    
    In Israel, we are all Jews, no matter where you or your ancestors were
    born.

Re: -1
   
>>    I am involved in a dialogue with some Americans who have the idea that
>>    Israel has discriminatory practices similar to those which (at least
>>    until the civil rights movement) pertained in the US.
  
Lets reverse the question -- do they have any facts pertaining to discriminatory
practices, or are they just assuming ??

Lets seperate between Ethiopians and non-European origin.  

As far as non-European origin, they are the MAJORITY of the population and are
very well represented in all walks of life (including the cabinet).  Remember,
non-European means Iraq, Iran, Yemen, Syria, Eygpt, Kurdistan. All, were large 
well established Jewish communities, before the founding of the State. 
(BTW: non-European also means Americans [North and South]) 

The Ethiopian are only gradually becoming more integrated. It is the same 
problem experienced by any immigrant community.  The parents don't usually 
integrate completly, while the children do.  

(Didn't the same happen during the large wave of immigrants into America at the
turn of the century ??)

In answer to the original question, Ethiopians are drafted and serve in the 
army. 

They may be confused between Israelis and Non-Israelis (e.g. Arabs living in the
West Bank and Gaza).  Non-Israelis do not have the same rights or 
responsibilities as do Israeli citizens.

It's not clear whether the base noter's acquaintances are talking about Jews,
Israeli Arabs, or non-Israeli Arabs.

As regards Jews, the perfect argument against charges of racism is the simple
fact of the rescue of the Ethiopians.  What has the U.S. done for Liberians,
many of whose ancestors were born in the U.S.?

I thought Israeli Arabs aren't allowed in the armed forces.  Do they participate
in some kind of non-military draft?  I know there are Arab MK's (who ironically
get to vote on "who is a Jew").

Druze are allowed in the armed forces, right?  What about Bedouins?

Gerald,

>> I thought Israeli Arabs aren't allowed in the armed forces.  Do they
>> participate in some kind of non-military draft? 
Usually not. Last week, a Christian Israeli Arab completed the Army Officer's 
course (with distinction). 

>> Druze are allowed in the armed forces, right? 
Yes

>> What about Bedouins?
Yes

	Let's get this right about the Israeli Army:

	1) All Israeli Jews no matter what their origin are drafted into the
	   Army for service (exceptions are extremely religious Jews and
	   people with handicaps for which service is optional, no ethnic
	   requirements).  Note that women are not mentioned here, they
	   are required to serve just as men are.

	2) All other non-Jewish Israelis are ELIGIBLE to serve in the army
	   but are NOT REQUIRED to do so.  Part of the reason for this is
	   that an Arab could find himself fighting against his own family
	   which could cause major problems for himself and his army unit.

	3) The Druze are not required to serve but most do and there are a 
	   number of high-ranking officers who are Druze (at least it used
	   to be that way).

		Danny

Seems we've been down this road before.  In an effort to continue
the myth of Israel as a racist state, our enemies often harp on
the discrimination against non-European Jews here.

(Ironically, they often expect some sympathy to exist between 
Sefardi Jews and Palestinians, as if the oppressed groups would
help and support each other.  In fact, surveys tend to show that
the Sefardim vote more for the hard-line rightwing parties, while
support for the left comes mainly from Ashkenazi (European) Jews.)

Now if I were among the first to answer the base note, I would also
have painted the rosy picture that we Jews live in peace and harmony
with each other without regard to color.  I would also have pointed out
that the IDF Chief of General Staff (highest rank in the armed forces)
was held by an Iraqi (Moshe Levi) two before the current one.  However,
since all that has been said, you should understand that there *is*
discrimination and racism here, since it exists *everywhere* in the
world where there are human beings, and that includes Israel.  There
is more poverty, crime , and drugs among the Sefardim also.  There
are many sociological and historical reasons for this which I won't
go into here.  The important points to emphasise are that 1) the 
discrimination is not institutionalized or government inspired --
it is sociological, and 2) the situation is improving.  The best cause
(and effect) of the improvement is the steady increase in so-called
intermarriages between East and West.  In my parents generation it
was almost unheard of.  In mine, it is not uncommon.  Among my children's
friends I expect it to be normal.

Sid

It is my understanding that the Jews of Ethiopia do not refer to themselves
as "Falashas", but rather as "Beta Israel" (or Beta Yisrael -- I don't
speak Ghez (sp?), so I'm not sure which it is).

"Falasha" [tr - "foreigner" or "stranger"] is the name applied to the
Jews of Ethiopia by non-Jewish Ethiopians.

I realize that that part of the Jewish community who was aware of the
plight of Ethiopian Jews before the latest rescue are used to referring to
them as Falasha;  we will just have to re-align our mouths :-)

Bobbi

    Sorry.  And thanks for the correction.
    
    L

.5>	Let's get this right about the Israeli Army:

This was discussed some in 257.*, but let's try to get it together in one note.


.5>	1) All Israeli Jews no matter what their origin are drafted into the
.5>	   Army for service (exceptions are extremely religious Jews and
.5>	   people with handicaps for which service is optional, no ethnic
.5>	   requirements).  Note that women are not mentioned here, they
.5>	   are required to serve just as men are.

True, except for the part about women.  They serve 2 years initially, whereas
men do 3.  Women do miluim (reserve duty) only for a few years (if at all) or
until they get married, whichever comes first.

Also, a higher percentage of women than of men get exemptions on religious
grounds.  Many of them, it should be noted, choose to do a year or two of
non-military national service instead of the army.

Men who immigrate to Israel after the age of 18 do a reduced amount of service,
or none at all, depending on age, family status, health, and sometimes other
factors.  Women who arrive after 20 technically are subject to service, but
generally aren't actually drafted.  They may volunteer, but even then the army
may not want them.


.5>	2) All other non-Jewish Israelis are ELIGIBLE to serve in the army
.5>	   but are NOT REQUIRED to do so.
.5>
.5>	3) The Druze are not required to serve ...

Depends on who they are.  Druse and Circassian men are drafted, just like Jews.
Beduin are not drafted, but it is common for them to volunteer.  Christian
Arabs are allowed to volunteer, but I believe that this is uncommon.  I never
heard of a Moslem Arab volunteering, but I suppose that it may have happened.

And non-Jewish women almost never go into the army.


In general, the rules about who serves for how long tend to be complicated.
One of the few simple aspects is that there is no differentiation at all among
Jews of different origins.