Conference taveng::bagels

    
       That's awful!!
       I suggest that you contact CNN and get a copy of this tape, and
       that you submit it to one or another organization which should 
       keep track of such things. Living in the Boston area, I would 
       contact the ADL and ask them where this should go, and even write
       a letter to my local Jewish newspaper.
    
       I am continually upset and baffeled by the degree of anti-Israel
       and anti-semitic sentiment and propaganda that exists in the world, 
       which is perpatrated by sexist dictatorships! I am also frustrated 
       by the relative amount of denial about this <and often lack of 
       awareness and knowledge !...> that I percieve exists among so many 
       American Jews...(granted sometimes because this activity may be
       subtle..). But this CNN thing doesn't sound subtle. Did the comentator 
       say anything about what was written there in the context of the 
       question being examined?...
    
       Although were I to live in Israel, my views might be considered left
       of center...living in Boston U.S. I spend a lot of energy defending 
       Israel's right just to exist as a Jewish state!!
       
       I have just now entered this notes-file for the first time without
       having read what has come before...so I may be speaking to people who 
       are as frustrated as I am...
    
       More as another time
       Exhausted
       DK

    	What did you guys expect? Everyone knows exactly what's going on,
    yet few people give a hoot. Reporters are out for juicy footage even if
    it kills the nation they are supposed to "cover". Our own "committed"
    Administration is paying for its screwups vis-a-vis Arab dictators -
    with chunks of Israel's security, aid, land, immigration, economy - 
    anything they can break off and feed to US's new "friends". UN is doing
    what it's always done... Why should Assad's Syria or Rafsanjani's Iran
    or Hussein's Jordan - change? They are being rewarded aplenty for
    exactly what they've been doing for the last 80 years - trying to push
    the Jews out of Palestine.
    
    DG

 I've heard something similar in the NPR news yesterday. They said that the
Iranian Prime Minister or President, Rafsangani, declared that his country
contribution to the peace process will be sending more troops to destroy
Israel.

 I know that it might sound terrible in the US but this is a common middle 
eastern statement. I also wouldn't draw a conclusion that all of the Arab 
State are actively supporting this approach and that there is no chance for 
any peace settlement between Israel and its neighbors.

 I'm personally more upset by David Duke denial of his past (his next statement
probably will be  "many of my best friends are Jews"). I also wonder what 
President Bush, who compared Sadam Husain to Hitler and send American Troops 
to Destroy Iraq, will do about his party Nazi member.

 Re: 2, I think that the ADL might be much more effective in fighting Duke 
instead of Rafsangani. 

Jacob

>>    in the bulding hung a green banner which said (in English, oddly 
>>    enough) "ISRAEL MUST BE DESTROYED".
    
	Why is any of this surprising?  I'm actually surprised at the
	question (no offense, Steve!) in the first place.

	The problem is that "conventional wisdom" has already won
	(politically).  The US and Europe have now been well conditioned
	by several nonstop years of Israel bashing.  Just read Time
	or Nesweek -- Time is worse -- for several weeks running, and
	see that there *has* to be at least one such article per week,
	regardless of the news (to say nothing of the Boston Globe).
	Can anyone spell "Big Lie Technique"?  You know, just say the
	most ridiculous thing in the world enough times...used by Stalin,
	Goebbels, and now by the US media.

	Well, it's just politics. It's now in the US's interest -- make no 
	mistake -- to be close "friends" with the Arabs, even if that is
	at significant Israeli expense.  What is important to Washington
	is what is important to Washington, not what is important to
	Jerusalem.  Does that have to be said? And it is already obvious 
	that the US administration can get away whith just about what it 
	wants in this regard, without a whimper.

	It has really brought into focus what the "holy land" really is.
	Why doesn't someone seriously propose that a few hundred or
	thousand acres be permanently ceeded -- returned -- to Native 
	Americans in, say, Arizona, or New Mexico, or North Carolina, or 
	Maine, etc.  So to speak, land for peace.  I think there would be 
	more than a few speeches in Washington about the "sacred land
	of these United States".  

	We know what's going on. It's not -< Land for *what?* >-.  It's
	"land for piece". 

	A reason that Israel and Egypt settled, IMHO, was that Sadat was
	able to convince a large segment of the population that he really
	wanted some kind of "peace" with Israel.  That's one reason the 
	government didn't fall during the Camp David process.  Lots of
	people really felt that he was genuinely seeking some kind of 
	understanding with us.  But el-Asad?  With all the statements
	he's making on the side (like: "even if we get the Golan
	back and sign a peace treaty with the Israelis, we will always
	refuse to sit down and talk with them about regional issues such as 
	water.")?  Peace?

	I'm too frustrated, and I really don't have time, to type anything 
	intelligent.  I'm trying to make some money for DEC about 14 hours 
	a day these days instead.

don f.

    Don:
    
    You are absolutely right.  And for not having time to type in anything
    "intelligent," you certainly touch on a very important point: the last
    country in the world with any RIGHT to say anything about Israel and
    the land on which she sits (the two of which I see as inseparable) is
    the United States.  Americans have a tendency to beat their breasts in
    righteous indignation about others' wrongdoings without considering
    their own sins.  And when an enire continent was occupied by broken
    treaties, immoral wars and unintentional (although not always)
    genocide, America's sins are not minor.
    
    I too am frustrated.  I find myself too often times defending the very
    right of Israel to exist, unfortunately, with very little progress. 
    When a generation condititioned by mindless exposure to ceaseless
    images bases its entire perception of the world on said images, it is
    too often fruitless to try changing minds.  Especially when, as you
    say, the Martin Fletchers of the world appear to be looking for nothing
    deeper than the "juicy" scenes they spoon-feed to the American public.
    
    I apologize for the vitriol--sometimes the level of helplessness
    becomes problematic.
    
    
    Ram�n

    Re:.0
    Steve,  I'm surprised that a Welchman like you could make such a silly
    mistake.
    
    Oh, your not Welch?  Neither is Iran Arab.  Iran is ethnically "Aryan",
    or "Persian", with its own language (Farsi).  It borders Arab
    countries, and is Muslim, but that hardly makes them Arab.  The largest
    Muslim populations, after all, are in Indonesia and India.
    
    Iran has no direct interest in the Arab-Israel conflict, but for
    political reasons is siding with Libya and the other irredentist
    factions of the Arab world.  Like the other extremists, they don't want
    peace; it would hurt their power, which comes from their ability to
    cause trouble!  And having all that oil, they can afford mischief.
    
    Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon and even Syria can't afford perpetual war,
    unless somebody bankrolls them.  If the US and USSR can make it
    unprofitable, then they'll be willing to settle.  Assad _may_ be
    willing to _begin_ to think that way (i.e., maybe he can be bought). In
    which case, Iran loses a client, so they're trying to torpedo things!
    
    Likewise most Palestinians would like a settlement that allows them to
    live as free people (not necessarily at war, just not in their present
    "kaffir" state).  Others want the war to continue forever; it's their
    source of power.

    	I am sorry, but I think the previous "correction" is largely
    incorrect, and far too prone to a sweeping-stereotype-syndrome disease.
    
    	First of all, Iran is not an Arab country, but neither it is 
    ethnically "Aryan" (sic) any more than the Soviet Union is ethnically
    "Russian" or Yugoslavia is ethnically "Serbian". As a matter of fact,
    Iran does have a sizeable Arabic-speaking minority, anywhere from 5-10%
    of the country's population.
    	Second, Iran does have a direct interest in the Arab-Israeli
    conflict, as it is one of the "rim" countries of the Arab world, like
    Turkey, Ethiopia, southern Sudan. Iran's interest has trditionally been
    on the side of Israel, but over the last decade and a half a SHi'ite
    Muslim revival moved Iran into the virulently anti-Israeli camp. Not
    because they want to make trouble that way, but because it's a method
    of crossing the ethnic boundaries with the Arab world, and uniting its
    neighbors around an ideology led by Iranian powers-that-be.
    	Finally, where did you get the "most of the Palestinians" garbage?
    Conduct any polls lately? Those conducted in Jordan (which is 60-70%
    ethnically "Palestinian") consistently show a popular desire to
    eliminate Israel as a country.
    	And while this may not be the place, nor the time, Palestinians as
    a whole do not live in the "kaffir" status, that is simply incorrect.
    Furthermore, the implied comparison by analogy between SA Apartheid and
    the status of the Palestinians is an old propaganda tool, widely and
    cynically used by people who'd cut the author's throat just for having
    a Jewish-sounding name. 
    	As a whole, I fear this "correction" is quite a bit farther from
    reality in spirit than Steve's .0, even if points out some of .0
    factual oversights.
    
    DG

    Well, this has been enlightening to say the least.
    
    I will publically apologize for my ignorance of some facts.
    
    The *fact* I'm not ignorant about is what I saw on CNN - the sign said,
    "ISRAEL MUST BE DESTROYED".
    
    So regardless of my lack of knowledge in racial issues, the point is,
    the sign disturbed me.
    
    

    re:.8
    Yep, the Aryans said, "Israel must be destroyed".  Personally I think
    Iran et al are as big a threat to world peace today as the Russians
    were perceived as being in 1948.  Read "The Satanic Verses" and if you
    can make it out, you'll understand.  It's a real threat.
    
    BTW, Hitler wasn't Aryan himself; ethnically, he was a teuton.  Shows
    how dumb he was.
    
    None of that affects my other views on the matter...