Conference taveng::bagels

    How do I feel?
    
    Well, since I'm one of those poeple who doesn't believe, I have to tell
    you that the existence of the Jews doesn't pose any problem for me,
    philosophical or otherwise.
    
    Secondly, I doubt the "new world order" is much more than rhetoric;
    in so far as it means anything, it means that the "West" won the Cold
    war and so is going to use its power to arrange the world a bit more
    to its liking.  In any case, it's hardly the case that a totalitarian
    utoptian system has been created, so you don't have to worry about
    your heritage being made illegal, etc.
    
    It is true, I think, that the First World is becoming more secular
    (while the Moslem chunk of the Third is becoming less so).  Secular
    values in a majority can make a non-secular minority feel threatened,
    even where no real oppression exists: the lure of consumer culture
    is a danger to the continuation of Jewish, Amish or Navajo (etc.)
    traditional life as each new generation has to make a choice between
    family values and those of the outside world.
    
    Finally, in reply to the second paragraph, I think someone should 
    point out the implicit assumption you make: that Bush's "attitude"
    of wanting to delay making loan guarantees is inhospitable and
    not understanding, and possibly unjust.  It's none of those: it's
    just straighforward international politics.
    
    The US is subsidizing Israel to the tune of four billion dollars a
    year, more or less.  For this it gets an ally in the Middle East and 
    some useful intelligence about the area, and field testing of its
    military equipment.  Maybe it's worth it, maybe it isn't--but it's
    a business deal, not a love affair.
    
    Loan guarentees are a subsidy, to the amount the interest rate on
    the loan drops.  Bush clearly thinks that he should get something
    from Israel for that extra subsidy.  It's a fair trade if both sides
    want to make the deal.  But the bottom line is that the US doesn't 
    owe Israel any money, and Israel doesn't owe the US any actions
    (like concessions on peace talks, etc.).  From that basis, maybe
    some trading can be done.
    
    Consider for a moment the plight of the Amish--is there any place on
    earth that is hospitable and understanding toward the Amish people
    other than the Amish county in Pennsylvania?  Ditto the Navajo and
    the Kwatkuitl.  The answer is always the same: "Yes, but there are
    limits to the hospitality and understanding of strangers".
    
    			-John Bishop

    	I'll chip in my 2 cents on this one. I actually agree that the
    Jewish people, both in Diaspora and in Israel, is going to be coming 
    under increasing pressure. There reasons are manifold, and largely
    local in every case, but the confluence of all the pressures at this
    time makes me believe that there are deeper, underlying causes unifying
    the local anti-Jewish phenomena.
    	The most obvious part of the Jewish nation that's in rapid decline
    right now, is that in Russia, USSR, and Soviet Central Asia. In most of
    these lands, the latent historical antisemitism, coupled with today's
    collapse of the economy and national entities, is causing the increased
    physical, political and psychological pressure on the Jews to leave,
    fight back, or fully assimilate. The Jews in the former USSR have been
    unable to fully assimilate largerly due to the fact that the native
    population treats Jewishness as a national, bloodline-oriented trait,
    and even "russified" Jews are treated and mistreated as the rest of the
    Jews. The Jews are fighting back to some extent, by exerting political
    pressure on the new governmental structures, but the main physical
    threat is from the "informal" movements such as Pamyat, Islamic
    revival, organized crime and so forth. Thus, the appeals to the weak
    law and order help little, if at all, when you neighbors are beating
    up you kids, drawing swastikas on your front door, and so on. So, the
    Russian Jewry is leaving as fast as they can, and engendering even more
    hostility by this population movement itself, as all large
    resettlements usually do. Many will remain, but most will leave after
    the civil war and real pogroms break out - and most believe this'll
    happen in the coming years.
    	The second most obvious leg of the Diaspora in trouble, are the
    smaller Jewish communities outside Europe, USSR, Israel and USA/Canada. 
    These include the Ethiopian Jews, the SA Jews, Balkan communities, remnants
    of the Syrian Jewry, South American and Asian communities. Many of
    these are stable and prosperous, but very small. Most of the bigger
    ones are either emigrating to Israel and North America, assimilating,
    or are in captivity. The best illustration of this trend is the
    succession of local aliyah waves in the last 12 years, started with the
    Iranian Jewry under Khomeini. The most dramatic recent examples include
    Albanian, Ethiopean and Eastern European Jewish migrations. I believe
    this will continue, and accelerate as the nationalist instability
    spreads throughout the world, and Jewish minorities become scapegoats.
    	The third leg of the Diaspora, the North American Jewry, is at the
    pinnacle of its power, comfort and influence. I know this'll sound
    strange, but I think right now is the best possible time to be a Jew in
    America, not to be traded for what came before - or is coming after.
    I think we are seeing the rise of the anti-Jewish backlash in Bush and
    Baker, and Jesse Jackson and the various opinion polls. The increasing
    media hostility and distortion of Israel, the attacks on the "Jewish
    lobby", the pressure to continue assimilating (witness the way the
    Lubavitch Hassidim have been described lately), and the general wave of
    latent, low-level anti-semitism will continue to grow. It's a long way
    down from the place we are at, and it'll take time, but the fall has
    started and will probably continue. Might take a generation, or even
    more, but the alienation has a tendency to be a compounding process.
    	I don't know about the Western European Jewry, the final big leg of
    the Diaspora. They seem comfortable, if not particularly influential,
    except for France. Maybe someone else can fill this gap, and it could
    be that these communities will buck the downward trend altogether,
    growing and prospering instead (and making this a less-than-worldwide
    trend!).
    	Finally, Israel is both at her strongest and her weakest at the
    same time. The population is reaching a critical staying mass, the
    economy has reached the poorer developed countries' level, the military
    infrastructure is in place as much as it can be, and the Arab
    antagonists are wavering in their ability to pay the price of an
    ongoing aggression against the Jews in Palestine. However, Israel is
    now losing her strongest (and almost the only) ally for the next few
    years, the worldwide propaganda wave is separating Israel from the
    other democracies and their public opinions, the weapons of mass
    destruction are soon to be available to her main enemies, and the
    revolutionary ideology of the society is close to crumbling inside the
    country itself. Most importantly, the question of Palestine (not to be
    confused with the Palestinian question), is about to enter the pre-1948
    stage, with a single Mandate Power balancing the scales. Then it was
    Britain and its restrictions on Jewish immigration and settlement, now 
    it'll be US and its pressure to limit Jewish immigration and settlement.
    	Most importantly, I think, is the fact that the post-Holocaust
    sympathy for the Jews is almost finished. A new era is beginning, where
    survival of the Jewish people is once again not assured by the world,
    and more and more bare-knuckled political/military fights will break out.
    The may lead to another Catastrophe, like the Roman Empire's sacking of
    Jerusalem, or the Inquisition, or the Holocaust...
    
    DG

    RE: 1105.2
    
    DG,
    
    I wish I could honestly challenge your assessment.  Unfortunately, I
    think you are correct.
    
    I find it depressing and frightening.  Since you have thought this out
    so carefully and thoroughly, have you also thought about what we can do
    to counteract these trends, at least in the US and Israel?  Our
    children's lives are at stake.  What actions are effective now?  (I
    live in the USA.)
    
    Laura

    	Laura, you've asked a very difficult question, one that I've been
    struggling with myself, and by myself, to answer - what is to be done?
    I don't have a ready answer, even for me. It'd be even harder to try
    and suggest to someone else, so I'll just try to honestly share some of
    the conclusions, please forgive me any inconsistencies and ramblings :-)
    	Most us, religious and non-religious, Zionists and non-Zionists,
    probably feel a certain sense of individual helplessness, being unable
    to (definitively) affect the overall course of history, or current
    politics, or even this particular crisis. Some join pressure groups,
    others find solace in the Tora, yet others emigrate to Israel. Most do
    very little beyond sending some money, maybe writing some letters, in
    the hope that if we pitch in "somebody else" will actually affect the
    course of events, somebody who's listened to, or powerful enough, or
    radical enough. We try to teach our children the right things, and
    sometimes to talk to our neighbors, and perhaps keep up some
    traditions. These are all necessary actions, but they are defensive in
    nature, reacting to the pressure, and probably doomed to long-term
    failure by passivity.
    	I think, perhaps, the change must start in our own hearts and
    souls. It's the most painful part of the process, but we might not have
    a choice... The best way I can describe it would be trying to decide
    for oneself, whether this crisis is imminent, personal, and
    unavoidable. You see, once you understand that it's YOUR children's
    lives that are at stake, your system of values tends to change, and
    pushing back becomes OK. Once you understand that the Trouble is here,
    now, your timescale becomes shorter, and you have to do something NOW.
    Once you understand that there is no running, no hiding, it's not going
    to go away by itself, you may feel that every action must be taken to
    defend yourself, your children, your people... There is an immediate
    benefit of such a process in one's soul - the little passive actions
    that we know how to do - money, demonstrations, whatever - seem far
    more useful and meaningful, a part of the larger existential struggle.
    	It's a bitter game that we are all doomed to play - there are
    winners and there are losers. Jews have been losers in it many times,
    and the costs of losing are death, cultural extinction, forced
    migrations, isolation, loss of homeland. Jews have also been winners
    enough times to survive as a nation through the millenia. Since WWII,
    the big Jewish communities in North America, Europe, even USSR have
    been living an apparent illusion - a feeling that the survival game
    has stopped, that we'll never again face extermination, that somehow
    that's not the part of the modern world. We've been wrong.
    	As far as immediate prescriptions for action, I don't have any.
    Only that there are infinite opportunities around each of us to get
    involved once we've gone through the soul-searching, and understand
    the importance of acting. Let's stop being embarrassed about defending
    our people's survival. If we don't have enough info to stand up to
    Jew-bashing or Israel-bashing in a heated argument - go after the facts
    and find out. If we are not used to seeming "radical" - understand that
    we may not have a choice. If we can't spare money to boost AIPAC -
    weigh for yourself the alternative of NOT having them lobbying. If we
    are afraid for a job, or future promotion - compare that to your
    children's future.
    	I don't know. Perhaps, if we talk about these things out loud,
    we'll help each other to figure them out - that would be a great boon
    as well. Above are just my thoughts, not meant to preach or guide, just
    to be shared. Perhaps, I am wrong, perhaps not. I know, stirring
    uncomfortable issues is always a risky proposition, but do we have a
    choice?..
    
    DG
    understand that the Trouble is here, your system

    re .04
    
    Your thoughts are very insightful.  I have just completed reading Alan
    Dershowitz' new book entitled "Chutzpah".  He deals with many of the
    same issues of Jews being second class citizens.  But he also discusses
    what he has done and what he advocates doing to counter this.  At the
    least, it makes interesting reading.  In addition, it could become a
    good set of ideas to live by to make this a better world for our Jewish
    children and ourselves.
    
    Milt
    
    

    I would like to explore with you, fellow noters, our experience here in
    DEC.  Its obvious that there is no Jewish participation in the VoD
    (Value of Diversity) program.  Is this something we want to do?
    
    There are several strands interwoven here.
    
    One, we suffered from negative quotas (university admissions, etc.)
    until recently.  Jews never sought participation in affirmative action
    programs.  
    
    Two, it's interesting to note that we are never formally identified as
    a minority in the US - on census forms, on DEC's personnel records,
    etc.  We did not seek this.  I guess we've done pretty well by
    assimilating (in appearance anyway).  I guess we fear this
    identification more than we think we'll benefit from it.
    
    Three, we maintain a low profile here at DEC, the exception being those who
    are openly kosher, wear a kipa, leave early Fridays, etc.
    
    Given all the baggage, and the existing anti-Semitism just below the
    surface (yes, in DEC as elsewhere in society), is it to our advantage
    to sponsor VoD events?  If we asked Alan Dershowitz, he'd no doubt say
    yes.  After all, with events for homosexuals, Hispanics, Blacks, and
    the deaf, why not?  But. . .
    
    It's a good time to discuss this.  March is an ideal time for VoD
    events for us, since it's a month before Passover.  We can sponsor a
    model Seder and perhaps have other associated events such as films,
    speakers, musicians, storytellers.  There's no lack of speakers or
    materials.  (By the way, I work in Littleton.)  If it's something we
    want to do, we can start planning now.
    
    I have a lot of emotion about this, both ways.  What do you think? 
    
    Tentatively,
    Laura  

re .1:

>    Loan guarentees are a subsidy, to the amount the interest rate on
>    the loan drops.

That depends on how you define "subsidy."  If a subsidy is a payment
(which is how the two dictionaries I've looked in define it), then
a loan guarantee isn't a subsidy.  If Israel defaults on the loans,
then you might be able to argue that it's a subsidy.

>    Consider for a moment the plight of the Amish--is there any place on
>    earth that is hospitable and understanding toward the Amish people
>    other than the Amish county in Pennsylvania?

Rabbi Avraham Twerski, in his book "Generation to Generation," tells a story
about a Hasid being harrassed by an anti-religious Jew.  He told him that he
wasn't a Hasid, he was Amish.  The anti-religious Jew said, "Oh, I'm sorry.
You know, I've always admired how you people have kept your identity..."

    
    Re: .2
    
    A few comments on your excellent -albeit frightening- insights.
    
    >Russian Jewry is leaving as fast as they can, and engendering even more
    >hostility by this population movement itself, as all large
    >resettlements usually do. Many will remain, but most will leave after
    >the civil war and real pogroms break out - and most believe this'll
    >happen in the coming years.
    
    There was an excellent article in The Forward this past week, regarding
    the Yeltsin/Pamyat connection. In a nutshell, Yeltsin is known to have
    met with Pamyat's leaders many times in 1987, and a few weeks ago, when
    asked what he planned to do about the resurgence of Jew-hatred he
    equivocated.
    
    
    Is it possible that the man who stood up singlehandedly to the Communist
    party, the KGB and the army only a few weeks ago is *afraid* of taking
    a stand against Pamyat? The author offers several theories about his
    thinking, but the possibility that rings most true is that Yeltsin's
    sentiments are at least not strongly philo-Semitic, or at least that
    he senses that Jew-hatred is so deeply rooted in the Russian psyche,
    that his own political days would be numbered would he take a firm
    position on anti-Semitism.
    
    
    >right now is the best possible time to be a Jew in
    >America, not to be traded for what came before - or is coming after.
    
    Your words are undoubtedly unnerving to most, and many are likely 
    to write them off as alarmist and extreme. But the come from the
    "pen" of an individual with keen historical insights, rooted no doubt,
    in personal experience.
    
    >the pressure to continue assimilating (witness the way the
    >    Lubavitch Hassidim have been described lately),
    
    Ed Koch quoted a "Jewish leader," who insisted on anonymity,
    as explaining that one of the reasons for the Jewish Establishment's
    deafening silence in the face of America's first pogrom is the fact
    that it was the anachronistic (read: embarrassing) Lubavitchers
    who were on the firing line. *We*, first and foremost, are our own
    worst enemies.
    
    >Maybe someone else can fill this gap, and it could
    >be that these communities will buck the downward trend altogether,
    >growing and prospering instead (and making this a less-than-worldwide
    >trend!).
    
    Well, I guess we disagree on something. Have you forgotten that Germany
    is reunited? Have you missed the reports about the death-camp video
    games? Do you think that _The Protocols_ is less popular today in
    Central Europe than it was 60 years ago? The fatal "mistake" that Jews
    always make is their nasty habit of "growing and prospering" - if there 
    are live Jews around, there will be jealous gentiles to "right" those 
    "wrongs."
    
    >Most importantly, I think, is the fact that the post-Holocaust
    >sympathy for the Jews is almost finished.
    
    The "symapathy package" is stamped with a 45-year expiration date.
    We're on our own once again.
    
    >The may lead to another Catastrophe, like the Roman Empire's sacking of
    >Jerusalem, or the Inquisition, or the Holocaust...
    
    Pleasant thoughts, but they lead me to suspect that you've been
    secreting peeks at the Talmud's descriptions of the events to
    precede the messianic era.
    
    Jem
    
    

    re 1105.6
    
    There has, indeed, been Jewish participation in VoD--at least at my
    site. (Well, actually, my former site--I've just moved to a new job at
    a new location.)
    
    Our site formed a VoD group at DIM&T headquarters about three years ago
    and we've been fairly active (enough to get DIM&T Recognition Award).
    Although we haven't run a program specifically about Jews or Judaism,
    we have made a point of keeping site personnel informed about holidays,
    etc., and programs that have mentioned DEC in an international context
    have included reference to our offices in Israel.
    
    One has to be willing to take the time to educate people.
    
    Aaron
    
   "I am not for myself, who will be?  If I am only for myself, what am I?"

    RE: -1
    
    Supplying the dates of Jewish holidays (to avoid scheduling conflicts)
    is certainly a necessity.
    
    I can't help but notice the lack of enthusiasm here for actual
    programming (not just in previous reply, but others as well).
    
    I think the other consideration we have is the old  conundrum:  Is
    Judaism a religion or an ethnic identification?
    
    Of course it is both.  I don't think this conundrum needs more
    discussion.  But here's what's relevant:  In the USA we have pushed the
    Judaism as Religion aspect to the forefront.  This has helped in our
    mainstream acceptance, especially in the job market.  So.  If Judaism
    is "just another religion", there's no need to do VoD programming, is
    there?  To date, there has been NO VoD programming on religions - only
    on ethnic, racial, and homosexual differences.  
    
    Again, do we want to call attention to ourselves?  If we do a VoD
    program, does that mean that we are NOT "just another religion" but
    indeed an ethnic group?  If the "just another religion" tactic has
    worked well, should we avoid VoD programming?  Will VoD programming
    actually create more antagonism than it removes?  
    
    It's hard for non-Jews to understand, but anti-Semitism is more
    ancient, and more rooted in Western culture, than antagonism to the
    other VoD groups (arguably).  
    
    I would welcome further discussion on this.  I want to tread very
    carefully in proceeding here in Littleton.  Please share your ideas.
    
    Laura

    	Laura, I personally think a Jewish component to VoD is a great
    idea. Wouldn't really know how to set it up though. I think both the
    ethnic history, religious aspects, culture - all those deserve to be
    talked about. Anti-semitism can be an important side issue, for I doubt
    that it's a central point of most US Jews existence. 
    
    DG 

    There was a program (luncheon + lecture) on Islam, in HLO a while back.
    
    /dk

    There are two components to successful VoD work:
    
    1. "If I am not for myself, who will be?"
    2. "If I am only for myself, what am I?"
    
    You have to be willing to speak up on issues relevant to Jews and you
    have to be willing to speak up in support of others.  That will earn
    both respect and allies.
    
    One thing that I have found effective is not to assume that something
    that appears anti-Semitic is necessarily the result of bias; I
    generally respond to people who voice such things as if their comments
    are due to ignorance.  Thus, my approach is to educate, not castigate.
    This has two advantages:  First, the person whose behavior I want to
    change is more open and less defensive to my response, and therefore
    finds it easier to change.  Secondly, the people around us often
    reinforce what I am saying, creating social pressures against
    prejudice.
    
    Also, by being prepared to speak up against any form of prejudice I try
    to set an example for others.  I have seen this pay off in a situation
    where someone voicing an anti-Semitic remark was immediately corrected
    by someone non-Jewish with whom I had worked.  I didn't have to say
    anything.
    
                                       Aaron

    I discussed the idea of Jewish VoD programming with one of the senior
    US VoD people.  This was her response:
    
    YES!  Do it.  Go ahead. 
    
    She stated several significant observations.  She said that in speaking
    with Jewish managers here at Digital, they have told her there is a
    "glass ceiling".  This is so sad, although not surprising.  She also
    stated the popular perception that "Jews are the least 'white' of all
    the minority groups except Blacks".  (USA context)
    
    Maybe all our quibbles about Judaism as "just another religion" versus
    Judaism as an ethnic group, are irrelevant in the face of this
    information.  OTHERS view as as Jews (the whole package) no matter what
    fine distinctions we make among ourselves.
    
    Sigh. . .
    
    Laura

    re .14, relative rankings of minority groups
    
    That sounds quite odd to me: I'd think it would be more like this:
    
    	Light-skinned Europeans  <-- Jews fit in here...
    	Dark-skinned Europeans   <-- or in here, depending on appearance
    	Asians
    	Indians
    	Dark-skinned Hispanics
    	Native Americans
    	Blacks
    
    Given that you can't see jewishness instantly, but can see skin color
    instantly, and that the "ranking" system of America is overwhelmingly
    based on skin color, it seems unlikely that your informant is correct.
    
    re .14, "glass ceiling"
    
    I suspect that everyone finds promotion to the very top to be
    difficult; logically it's clear that only a very tiny minority
    of qualified people will be there (as for movie stars, rock stars,
    presidents and astronauts, there are thousands of eager, qualified
    people for every opening).
    
    I therefore tend to discount complaints about a "glass ceiling"
    unless there's more than anecdotal evidence for discriminatory
    promotion.
    
    re various, VoD
    
    Sure, why not?  It's not really about ethnicity, but about diversity
    of any kind.
    			-John Bishop

Re 1105.15 

John 

>    That sounds quite odd to me: I'd think it would be more like this:
>    
>        Light-skinned Europeans  <-- Jews fit in here...
>        Dark-skinned Europeans   <-- or in here, depending on appearance
>        Asians
>        Indians
>        Dark-skinned Hispanics
>        Native Americans
>        Blacks

Come to Israel and you will see that we have Jews to fit every shade on the
scale from blond to dark ebony, and I would have thought that at least a few
of every shade will have found their way to that great "melting-pot" the USA.
Personally, I object to classification by the colour of skin.  I am not white.
My skin usually ranges in colour from pink to a light brown depending on how
long I spend in the sun.  Today it is a little pasty as I have a cold!   

>    Given that you can't see jewishness instantly, but can see skin color
>    instantly, and that the "ranking" system of America is overwhelmingly
>    based on skin color, .......

Sad.  That "ranking" system could make one prefer a return to the old British 
upper, middle and lower class ranking.

>    I therefore tend to discount complaints about a "glass ceiling"
>    unless there's more than anecdotal evidence for discriminatory
>    promotion.

Agreed.

Shalom
Baruch 

    I do hope readers understood that I do not support such a ranking;
    I was trying to describe the current American prejudices from the
    outside, in an anthropological manner.
    
    It was my understanding that the personnel person quoted indirectly 
    was making the same kind of descriptive statement, again with no
    prescriptive intent.  That statement seemed to me not to describe
    American prejudice correctly.
    
    While I could go on for some time about class and race, etc. based
    on my knowledge of anthropology, that's not the issue.  I think
    the real issue is "to what extent does prejudice cause career damage
    to Jews (or other groups)".  My personal judgement is that the extent
    is low; others believe it to be high.
    
    It's important to note that even if most Americans are not very
    prejudiced, the "ranking" may still be widely known as another item
    of shared cultural data, like the names of the seven dwarfs in
    _Snow_White_, or the names of the Presidents.
    
    		-John Bishop

Worse...

I remember, some years ago, there was an attempt to do a VoD program on Judaism.
Of course, they found some Reform Rabbi to come in, as the event was scheduled 
on Yom Tov.

VoD indeed.  WE should look to ourselves.


don

    RE: -1
    
    "THEY found some Reform rabbi" (caps my own)
    
    Yes.  This is exactly the problem.  THEY are not going to do a VoD
    problem on Judaism, and even if THEY do, it will be inaccurate.
    
    WE will do the VoD program, and WE must get it right.
    
    Given the wealth of ideas, speakers, films, musicians, story tellers,
    and other available resources, and the knowledge within the Digital
    Jewish community, the only element lacking is the will to do it.
    
    Most gentiles are not going to seek out information on Jewish history or
    Judaism.  People are busy with their lives and their own concerns.
    
    Most gentiles are aware that they know little about us, but do not
    realize that they hold misconceptions.  They have little or no
    opportunity to learn more or correct misconceptions.  
    
    Unless we provide knowledge and positive experiences, we cannot expect
    change.  There are demagogues and extremists among the Gentiles, and
    that is nothing new.  But the majority are well meaning, if ill
    informed.  The extremists will remain close-minded, but the majority
    can be reached with education.
    
    There is a need in the Jewish political community for political
    confrontation and bold action.  But within Digital, the need is for
    education, to which many will be highly receptive.
    
    I am making myself available as a focal person for programming in the
    Littleton, Massachusetts area.  If you want to participate in planning
    some events, distributing a calendar of Jewish holidays (to avoid
    scheduling conflicts), and any other work which can be done, get in
    touch with me.  Contact me if you work anywhere within 60 miles of this
    location.  That includes southern New Hampshire, Boston, and Maynard.
    
    This individual is standing up and will be counted.  Will you?
    
    The buck stops here.  Do it now.
    
    Laura Steinhart
    
    PS:  If anyone has an on-line file of Jewish holiday dates for the next
    12 to 24 months, please send it to me for distribution here at LKG. 
    Please also post it here so others can send it to management at their
    site locations.  If you have a paragraph describing the sunset
    beginning of holidays and Shabbat, and the need to avoid scheduling at
    that time, please send it and post it.  If not, I'll write my own and
    put it here.  Thanks!

>    PS:  If anyone has an on-line file of Jewish holiday dates for the next
>    12 to 24 months, please send it to me for distribution here at LKG. 
>    Please also post it here so others can send it to management at their
>    site locations.  If you have a paragraph describing the sunset
>    beginning of holidays and Shabbat, and the need to avoid scheduling at
>    that time, please send it and post it.  If not, I'll write my own and
>    put it here.  Thanks!

	Someone was just asking in this notes conference about a program which
  can do this.  Check the last few topics.

		Danny

The Orthodox Union has a calendar of Jewish holidays for the next 10 or 20
years.  It explains what activities are restricted on the holidays.  It seems
to be explicitly aimed at providing information to employers and the like.