Conference taveng::bagels

>    I don't have the article in front of me, but I remember that the study
>    found that since 1985 about 52% of all marriages were between a Jew and
>    a Non-Jew.  It also found that 3/4 of the children of these marriages
>    were being raised as either Christians or with no religious training.

Is this supposed to be news? Unfortunatly, it doesn't suprise me at all.

Louuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

I assume that the figures are for the Jewish community in the United States.
Here, in the country with the second largest Jewish community in the world, the
story is quite different.  Of the Jews who grow up in Israel, only a tiny
minority marry non-Jews.  This is true of all groups within the population,
regardless of "Jewish practice and purpose".

I would guess, in fact, that the percentage of Israeli Jews who marry other
Jews is greater than the percentage of American Jews who marry at all.  (This
is a subjective judgment based entirely on personal observation of young adults
in both countries; I have no actual numbers to back it up.)

Eric,

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.  It seems to me obvious
that where the choice is somewhat limited (as in Israel), of course the
percentage of intermarriage will be lower.  So what?  This really
doesn't say anything about the level of Jewish education or the level
of Jewish practice here (two factors cited in a previous note).  In
fact, I'd bet that the percentage of intermarriage between Israeli Jews
on a secular kibbutz and, for example, non-Jewish volunteers on that
kibbutz, is not negligible. In fact the level of this kind of
intermarriage was so high that about two years ago some of the kibbutz
movements changed their poicies about allowing non-Jewish volunteers.

So let's not be too smug.  Being in Israel is unfortunately not a
cure-all for assimilation and intermarriage.

(P.S.  I assume you're not pointing out how low the intermarriage rate
is between Jews and Arabs here.  The two societies are so unintegrated,
it's hard to imagine how things could be any different.  It would be 
like comparing the rate of marriage between American Jews and inner-city
blacks).

.3> Eric,
.3> 
.3> I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

Neither am I. :-)  .0 solicited thoughts about the article, and I gave mine.


.3>       I'd bet that the percentage of intermarriage between Israeli Jews
.3> on a secular kibbutz and, for example, non-Jewish volunteers on that
.3> kibbutz, is not negligible.

I've heard heresay reports about this, but never seen any actual statistics.
Do you have any?


.3>                             In fact the level of this kind of
.3> intermarriage was so high that about two years ago some of the kibbutz
.3> movements changed their poicies about allowing non-Jewish volunteers.

There are only 3 kibbutz movements in the country, if I'm not mistaken, so your
"some" must be a fairly small number.  Which ones changed their policies, and
exactly what reasons were given?  There are a number of negative social aspects
to having non-Jewish volunteers (as well as some positive ones); potential
marriages aren't the only factor.


.3> So let's not be too smug.  Being in Israel is unfortunately not a
.3> cure-all for assimilation and intermarriage.

Well, I'm not sure that there is any cure-all.  But I'd be willing to bet that
the intermarriage rate among Jews raised in Israel is demographically
insignificant.

    See Topic #1019 on a similar subject...I originated it, being an
    intermarried totally reform(ed) semi-practicing American Jew married to
    a non-practicing, semi-believing Christian.  I have a lot of opinions
    on this subject, and hopefully my ideas will win out in the end, but
    only time (and some long, long talks with my hubby) will tell!
    
    M.

I've read through 1019 and found it interesting since it talks about the 
possible consequences of mixed marriages regarding the kid's identity.

It doesn't however, touch the issue, discussed in 1097.2-4. 

The intermarriages is a Jewish Diaspora unique phenomena (problem ??) and Jews
who live in Israel, whether they are Orthodox or Secular, are much more
resistant to it. Even if there are few cases of intermarriages and the married 
couple choose to stay in Israel, " by Default "  their children will be raised 
as Jews (unless they will try very hard and send them to a Christian missionary)

While Jewish identity in the U.S is fulfilled by identifying yourself
with the Jewish religion while you belong to a Christen dominated nationality,
in Israel, which consider itself as a  Jewish state,  unless you are an Arab,
in the majority of the cases your  religion and nationality are the same - 
Jewish, whether you are Orthodox, Secular, Atheist or Agnostic.


I myself consider this as the fundamental difference between living in Israel
or living in the U.S.  Besides the Economical ,Political and Social 
differences which you may consider in selecting between U.S. and Israel, the 
bottom line is that when you choose to raise your children  in the State you 
accept the fact that there is more than 50% chances that they will intermarry 
and your grandchildren will not necessarily keep their Jewish identity.  

re:

I myself consider this as the fundamental difference between living in Israel
or living in the U.S.  Besides the Economical ,Political and Social 
differences which you may consider in selecting between U.S. and Israel, the 
bottom line is that when you choose to raise your children  in the State you 
accept the fact that there is more than 50% chances that they will intermarry 
and your grandchildren will not necessarily keep their Jewish identity.

  I agree.

  I first read the 'State' as in Israel and it didn't make sense, so I assume
  the '(United) States'.  ... Which also reminds me of someone's (maybe Rabbi
  Riskin of Efrat) very operational definition of "Who's a Jew".

  "..you are a Jew if your grandchildren are Jewish".

>   I don't have the article in front of me, but I remember that the study
>   found that since 1985 about 52% of all marriages were between a Jew and
>   a Non-Jew.

I assume this was supposed to say 52% of marriages involving Jews are
intermarraiges. I don't think there are enough Jews to go around unless
non-Jews tend to stay single.

This is a sad statistic.

Dave

    This "sad statistic" is an inevitable result of equality largely
    achieved in the United States. Absense of Jewish intermarriage
    throughout their European history is the result of oppression,
    not some unique desire to avoid assimilation. No other ethnic minority
    managed it, and Jews are driven by the same human impulses. I never met
    a person in the US who would state that he is of a pure blood, be it
    Dutch, Italian, English or German. Everybody is a mix of many
    ethnicities - that's why it is called a melting pot. Incidentally, the
    rate of intermarriage of Jews in Weimar Republic, that is Germany of
    1918-1933 was almost exactly the same, near 50%. An inevitable result
    in a modern secular democratic state. Yes, I think in a couple of
    generations American Jews will disappear as a race, same as happened to
    American Germans, American Poles, American French and American English.
    Can't predict what would happen with religious practices, but as to
    ethnic purity, the prognosis is pretty clear.

    A woman geneticist (who is currently the president of our schul) gave a
    lecture a couple years ago on whether or not the Jewish people can be
    cosidered a "race" genetically.  Her conclusion, based on tracing the
    incidence of genetic diseases and other easily-traced genetic
    characteristics, was that Jews are not, or are no longer, a "race"
    genetically.  The incidence of the genetic markers she was considering
    in American Jews of Ashkenazic descent (like herself) did not differ
    significantly from that of the non-Jewish people from the same areas of
    Eastern Europe.  (I could probably get copies of her slides if anyone is
    real interested in this research.)  At any rate, I would tend to
    interpret this data to mean that intermarriage has always been with us,
    at least in the form of conversion; it's not something that began when
    Jewish people fled Eastern Europe in large numbers in the 30's. 
    However, her main point was more to counter the absurd "Zionism=racism"
    declaration from the UN.
    
    /Charlotte

re .10:

    What's her explanation for so-called "Jewish genetic diseases" like
    Tay-Sachs?  I've been told that it's highly unlikely for an Ashkenazi
    Jew to be a bone-marrow match for anyone other than another Ashkenazi
    Jew.

>                                       At any rate, I would tend to
>   interpret this data to mean that intermarriage has always been with us,
>   at least in the form of conversion

    Not all interbreeding is voluntary.  I imagine that not all victims of
    pogroms were killed -- some must have been raped.

    A few thoughts on intermarriage, from personal and family experiences:
    
    My mother, who married the son of extremely devout Jewish immigrants,
    was considered by her in-laws to be nothing more or less than a
    "shikse", because her family was of the Reform temple, and they were
    quite strongly allied with the Orthodoxy.  In 1952, this was considered
    an inter-faith marriage!  Yet, this genteel ostracism toward my mother 
    occurred in a family where one of the older sons had forsaken his 
    real name, Samuel, in favor of a nickname he gave himself, Tim, because 
    it aided him in his amourous pursuits of Irish girls in Boston, both
    before and after his marriage to a "good Orthodox girl".
    
    My own mother and brother, who have not been inside a temple (except 
    for someone else's wedding) in more years than I can count, were 
    simply horrified because I insisted on a Saturday afternoon wedding 
    for both personal reasons (I wanted that date for my wedding, April 1st)
    and the convenience of my in-laws, who all traveled far to attend.  
    And yet, these same two people were less than happy with my insistence 
    that we begin to introduce Jewish tradition to my son, who just turned 
    three, by holding a Passover seder this year.  In fact, my brother, 
    who fought me tooth and nail my wedding date, didn't bother to show up 
    for the seder until well after 7:00 p.m., by which time it was pitch 
    dark, the tsimmis was burned, my son was starved, and my temper was fried!
    Needless to say, my non-Jewish husband and half-Jewish son did not enjoy 
    their first experience with a Passover seder.
    
    I'm not quite sure what this has to say about the condition of our
    American society, or about American Jews, except that we don't seem to
    know what we want.  
    
    For my brother and I, I can say that we both felt drawn to becoming
    non-practicing Jews in our teens when we began to realize what a 
    minority we were, even in an area like the Boston suburbs (Newton), 
    where there are still large Jewish communities.  Yet, when we each 
    began to make firm friendships and date, there seemed to be so many 
    more non-Jews around...looking back on my personal feelings, and the 
    arguments I had with my mom over dating non-Jews, I seem to recall 
    telling her that I couldn't see how I would ever meet Mr. Right if 
    I knocked so much of the male population out of the running merely
    because they were not Jewish.  Now, living in Orange County/LA, there
    is a tendency toward a relaxed attitude about *everything*, including
    inter-faith marriages.
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

.10>                                     Her conclusion, based on tracing the
.10>    incidence of genetic diseases and other easily-traced genetic
.10>    characteristics, was that Jews are not, or are no longer, a "race"
.10>    genetically.

I think that we could avoid a whole lot of unpleasant connotations by leaving
the word "race" out of this discussion entirely.  Just as light blond hair is
more common among Swedes than among Italians, certain genetically-linked
characteristics (most more innocuous than Tay-Sachs) are more or less common
among Jews than among other ethnic groups.  Similarly, there are cultural
differences between Swedes and Italians, enough that we can differentiate
between the two groups.  Whether a geneticist would apply the term "race" on a
scientific basis is irrelevant.

re .13:

While the biological term 'race' may have something to do with genetic 
similarities and differences between people, the term 'racism' does not.  
Racism refers to the fear and loathing between people because of their 
differences - be they genetic, cultural or religious.  Thus, strife between
Catholics and Protestants, whether the violent kind in Northern Ireland or
the more subtle version here in the USA (see Gov Wilder's comments about Judge
Thomas, or bigoted reaction in 1960's to a Catholic (JFK) running for President),
and fighting between various African tribes (which today manifests itself in the
ANC vs Inkatha violence) can be termed as 'racist.'

In Nazi Germany, and to a lesser extent in the US, there was an attempt to 
define the 'perfect' genetic makeup - which would have proven the superiority 
of the Aryan race and given the extermination of the Jews a scientific validity.
Those attempts failed miserably.

re .12:

It is facinating to watch peoples reactions to other people with different 
levels or forms of observance.  

* SWAM2::GOLDMAN_MA's mother had coniptions at the thought of a shabbat wedding,
but, it would seem, would rather not have her grandson exposed to a Pesach 
Seder.  

* In discussing the recent Ethiopian Aliya, the fact came out that the 
Ethiopians are much stricter in the observance of Family Purity (Taharat 
Hamishpacha) laws then the Halacha dictates (Halcha requires husband and wife 
to sleep in seperate beds when the wife has her period until she goes to the 
mikva; the Ethiopians seperate completely, with the husband leaving room 
altogether).  The point was made that while the Ethiopians were largly ignorant
of Halacha and Jewish tradition, what they did have they observed srcupulously.
(sp?)  Some of my 'frum'-er friends reacted with almost disgust at 
their ignorance of the halacha, even when it was pointed out that a strict 
reading of the text, without the oral-law interpretation, would lend support to
thier custom.

Everybody is either to frum or not frum enough - my own level of observance is 
only correct one.

Louuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

    re .11:
    
    >.11 What's her explanation for so-called "Jewish genetic diseases" like
    >.11 Tay-Sachs?  I've been told that it's highly unlikely for an Ashkenazi
    >.11 Jew to be a bone-marrow match for anyone other than another Ashkenazi
    >.11 Jew.
    
    Tay-Sachs is not a "Jewish genetic diseases".  It is a genetic disease
    found primarily in descendents of the Ashkenazi Jewish community due to
    the inbreeding of our ancestors.  However, it is also found in other
    populations, particularly people of French-Canadian descent, who also
    tended to inbreed. There are people of all religions, national origins
    and race, including African-Americans, who carry the Tay-Sachs gene.
    Our religious beliefs are not passed on to the next generation through
    our genes, but through our practices and lifestyles.
    
    Judy
    

.15>    Our religious beliefs are not passed on to the next generation through
.15>    our genes, but through our practices and lifestyles.

But under most circumstances (i.e., excluding conversions), Judaism *is* passed
on with our genes:  Under Jewish law, a Jew is defined as a person born of a
Jewish mother, regardless of his (or his mother's) beliefs, practices, and
lifestyles.  Even the Reform movement's most radical attempt to change this,
recognition of patrilineal descent, would have Judaism inherited along with the
genes.

re .15:

I didn't claim that Tay-Sachs was found only in Jews.  I asked how the
geneticist mentioned in .10 would reconcile her statement that Eastern
European Jews don't differ genetically from Eastern European non-Jews
with the much higher incidence of certain genetic diseases among Jews.

   Regarding .16

:But under most circumstances (i.e., excluding conversions), Judaism *is* passed 
:on with our genes:  

   Judaism is also passed on by our *memes*.  Does Jewish law exclusively
   attribute 'jewishness' to inheritance by genes?   

   It seems that 'born of' can accomodate imparting values and practices -- not
   just the physical blueprint.

   I believe that Judaism values/judges people by their acts and not by their
   blood-lines.   Our culture (Judaic/Israeli) celebrates the anniversary of the
   death of a person and not the birthdate.  This seems logical since the best
   appraisal can be made once all the 'facts are in'.

Re: .14
>Everybody is either to frum or not frum enough - my own level of observance is 
>only correct one.

 One of my (orthodox) cousins says he checks it with a frumometer  :^)

    Well, up until the end of the 19th century "race" meant what we now
    call "ethnicity", in fact, longer than that. Churchill writes of the
    "German race" or the "British race", and he was a master of English
    language. In this sense, Ashkenazi Jews are certainly a race, because
    we look differently from the races that live around, and it is because
    there was very little intermarriage, if at all, after the Middle Ages
    and up to this century. But Ashkenazi race is different from the
    Sephardic race, because their bloodlines certainly mixed with those of
    Arabs, while ours mixed with those of Northern Europeans. When I look
    at the pictures of Israeli sephardic jews, I cannot but notice the
    difference between them and my friends from Leningrad.
    
    There is a disconnect here - some speak of Jews as those who practice
    Judaism. For me it is almost like speaking of English as those who
    practice Anglicanism, as if being English means practicing certain
    religion. True enough, for close to 2000 years only Jews practiced
    Judaism, and happened to preserve "racial purity". But in this secular
    age being a Jew is not equivalent to practicing a certain religion. You
    can be sure that most of the 2 million Soviet Jews are secular.

    Boris,
    
    My understanding is that "most of the 2 million Soviet Jews are
    secular" because for 70+ years they have not been able to practice
    Judaism.  Schools were closed and forbidden.  Jewish books were not
    able to be published.  Kosher food was unavailable.  Etc...
    
    During that entire time there were practicing Jews, allbeit, only a
    few.
    
    I guess if practice didn't distinguish Soviet Jews from other Soviet
    citizens, the idea that there is a racial difference could explain the
    continued hatered of Jews by Pamat and others.
    
    I do not see Judaism as a race...but defining what is Judaism will lead
    us down a rathole. 
    
    The interesting thing is that (in keeping with the topic of this note)
    when a child of non-practicing Jewish parents brings home a non-Jewish
    boy/girl friend their possible negative response can be seen as
    "racist" since they can't be objecting to the secular lifestyle.    

I just got a Reform Jewish magazine that quotes the latest figure for
intermarriage as 57%. I'm amazed, though perhaps I shouldn't be.

Dave

    re: .21
    
    Well, "yes" to all of that. Soviet Jews are secular because all soviets
    are secular. The problem is not exactly in kosher foods, but in
    connunist authorities pressure to avoid religious practice, any
    religious practice. And of course Russian anti-Semitism is racist in
    nature, but so was Nazi anti-Semitism as well.
    
    And of course the Soviet Jewish relatives react just as negatively to
    the inter-ethnic dating as American ones. That's probably because that
    the two "tribes" diverged only 3 generations ago - most American Jews
    came to America before 1914. And of course the reason for this negative
    reaction is racist in nature, or ethnic, to use the modern language. It
    used to be a defensive reaction of an oppressed race against
    assimilation. Now I think it is instinctive - and it will fail, because
    no parental fear, rational or irrational (IMHO) will win against two
    loving hearts, as it were.
    
    Wall Street Journal for last Thursday has an article on that subject.