Conference taveng::bagels

According to tradition (I'm sure its written somewhere, but i don't know where)
the Ark was hidden before the destruction of the FIRST temple, destroyed circa
500 BCE.  The term in  hebrew/aramaic for a hiding place is 'geniza.'  The Ark 
was still in the geniza during the second temple.  The place of the geniza is 
supposed to be revealed by the Messiah.

As to any archealogical records of the whereabouts of the Ark, I have never 
heard of any.

Louuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

Hi Lou,

   Thanks for the info.

   For an uninformed gentile such as I, could I get a brief explanation of
first and second temples from someone?

Thanks,
-Jack

The First Temple was built by King Solomon and destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar,
the Babylonian king. The Judeans were exiled to Babylonia, but within a short
period of time Babylonia was conquerred by Cyrus the Great of Persia. Cyrus
released the Judeans to return to their homeland where they built the
Second Temple. The Second Temple was destroyed by the Romans in the 1st
century and all that remains is the Western Wall (the "Wailing Wall").

The Temples were where the sacrifices took place that you can read about
in Leviticus.

Dave

    Second temple was destroyed around 70 A.D. by the troops of Titus
    Flavius, the son of Emperor Vespasian, and soon to become Emperor
    Titus. There is a Triumphal Arch in the ruins of the Roman Forum,
    dedicated to that campaign. The destruction of the Second Temple
    started the Diaspora of Jews throughout the world, since the Temple was
    the spiritual center of Judaism. The notion of national unity or
    national allegiance did not exist back then, so there was no spiritual
    anchor that would tie the Jew to the land of Judea. Not to mention an
    utter devastation of the land by the Roman legions.
    
    At least that's what I picked reading novels about Josephus Flavius,
    the Jewish-become-Roman historian and general. His book, The Jewish
    War, is one of the few remaining eye-witness accounts of that period.
    Now he is read primarily by the Biblical scholars, for his books give
    the closest account of the beginning of Christianity, apart from the
    Gospels of course.

.3>	               The Second Temple was destroyed by the Romans in the 1st
.3>	century and all that remains is the Western Wall (the "Wailing Wall").

That's a common misconception.  The Romans did a very thorough job of
destruction, and nothing remains of the Second Temple.

The Western Wall is part of the retaining wall around the Temple Mount, on top
of which the temples (both of them) were built.  This wall supports the top of
the mount itself, keeping it from sliding into the nearby valleys.  I am pretty
sure that this wall dates back to Herod, who expanded the top of the Temple
Mount as part of his general renovation of the Second Temple.

     Grant Jeffrey, author of "Appointment with Destiny", suggests
that the Ark of the Covenant might be in Ethiopia.


     (Following are some excerpts from his book)

     The Queen of Sheba visited Solomon in Jerusalem several years after
the Ark was placed in the Holy of Holies.

     Ethiopian historical records say that she married him and bore a son
Menelik I.  He lived in the palace in Jerusalem and was educated by the
priests in the temple and was a believer.

     A 1935 National Geographic article recorded many interviews with
priests in Ethiopia who all had a similar story -- that Menelik was educated
until age 19, then returned home to Ethiopia with a large number of Jews
and the Ark, and that it is hidden there still today.

     The story goes that Solomon wanted to give him a replica of the Ark
since Menelik would never be able to get back to Jerusalem due to the
distances.  However, Menelik, aware of the growing apostasy in Israel,
and the fact that Solomon was allowing idols to be set up in the Temple,
switched the Arks and took the true one, and priests went with him to
Ethiopia, caring for the real Ark, and planning to return it when Israel
returned to the L_rd. Unfortunately, Israel never fully did, and was conquered
some 400 years later.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------

     If anyone is interested in more detail, the book (A Christian author)
does have some fascinating facts, with two chapters on the Ark of the Covenant.

    Re: 1085.4

    >                            The destruction of the Second Temple
    >started the Diaspora of Jews throughout the world,
    
    Well, not exactly.  There is evidence of very widespread Jewish
    settlement throughout the Mediterranean litoral and Mesopotamia;
    many scholars believe there were more Jews living outside of Israel at
    this time than living in the land.
    
    Also, it is important to note that the destruction of the Temple and
    Jerusalem did not mean the end of a self-governing Jewish community in
    Eretz Yisrael; a Jewish government persisted (under Roman suzerainity,
    to be sure, but autonomous with respect to most local affairs) for
    another 400 years.
    
    					Aaron

    re: 1085.4
    
    >                            The destruction of the Second Temple
    >started the Diaspora of Jews throughout the world,
    
    
    Weren't the northern 10 tribes taken away by the Assyrians much
    earlier?  Does anyone know if they retained their Jewish identity?
    
    Paul
    

>   Weren't the northern 10 tribes taken away by the Assyrians much
>   earlier?  Does anyone know if they retained their Jewish identity?

It appears they did lose their Jewish identity. The Assyrians probably
scattered the exiles. The later Babylonian permitted exiles to form
ethnic communities, which probably saved the culture from extinction.

A lot of Jewish development went on in that exile period. Before the
exile there were tendencies to revert to idolatry (especially among the
ruling class) but not afterward. I have read a book that suggests the seven
day week was borrowed from the Babylonians and another that suggests that
image-less worship was borrowed from the Persians. Upon their return to
Judea, the exiles transcribed the Torah into the "modern" Hebrew alphabet
rather than the ancient script that was almost forgotten by that time.
I can't help wondering what other changes they might have made in the text.
The practice of reading the Torah out loud, weekly, was probably introduced
by Ezra (the High Priest at the time).

Not all the exiles returned home. Some were doing too well in Babylon to
want to pull up roots. Later in history there were large numbers of
Greek speaking Jews.

Dave

    What is meant by "Diaspora", usually, is the dispersal of Jews after
    Roman siege of Jerusalem, not the normal migration that occured over
    thousands of years, or during Egyptian or Babilonian captivity.

    re: .10
    
    Since the Roman siege of Jerusalem did not result in very much
    dispersion (which is what the word "diaspora" means), but was largely
    restricted to exclusion from the city, it does not seem particularly
    applicable.  In fact, the Encyclopedia Judaica explicitly uses the term
    to refer to the voluntary dispersion of Jews during the first Temple,
    second Temple and Roman periods.

    Oh well, I don't know then. What I know is mostly from readings of and
    about Josephus, and he is the figure quite controversial, to say the
    least, among Judaic scholars of his time and even in contemporary
    Israel. Considered traitor by many (he was a jewish general and
    surrendered to Romans after all his soldiers commited suicide
    Masada-style, then became friend and confidant of Vespasian and Titus
    Flavius, future Emperors, historian, writer of world stature and
    included in Roman Pantheon - the temple where "officially great" people
    had their busts placed), he is probably the only contemporary historian
    who wrote about JEwish Wars of Flavian times.
    
    The idea is, that destruction of the Temple by Romans destroyed the
    sourse of jewish spiritual and stae life. Simultaneously, the Romans
    allowed the creation of Academy in Jaffa, which shifted the focus of
    Judaism from the Temple and the Pharisees to rabbis and to talmudic
    scholarchip. As a result, the focus of jewish spiritual life was no
    longer in the city of Jerusalem, and in no single city in particular,
    but in the local sinagogue, in every family, Judaism became more
    spiritually-focused, not needing a geographic center, a capital, a
    state. And thus Jews became the first cosmopolitan nation, spreading
    around the Roman world but keeping their jewish identity.
    
    That's what I vaguely remember, and I am sure there are alternative
    interpretations.

    >The idea is, that destruction of the Temple by Romans destroyed the
    >sourse of jewish spiritual and stae life.

     Yes, the writers of the Mishna did see themselves as being in exile
     because they were prohibited from entering Jerusalem.  The distinction
     that I was trying to make is between galut (exile) and diaspora
     (dispersion).  The latter was well advanced by the time the Temple was
     destroyed.

                                               Aaron

    REF .6
    
    i Also would be very interested in knowing what is the prevailing
    thought amongst you scholers(sp) on Jeffreys' suggestion.
    
    The book was extreemly interesting and his arguments well thought out,
    researched, factual, and logical.
    
    He also had some very interesting things to say about the actual temple
    sight being known and that the current mosque(sp) being in the Court of
    the Gentiles!
    
    What do you all think? 
    the Gentiles

    	Regarding the original question, the books of the Macchabees says
    that the Ark of the Covenant was hidden by Jeremiah on the mountain of
    Moses. I'll try to bring in the exact reference. Jeremiah was a priest
    and predictied the fall of Jerusalem, so its logical that he would have
    been involved in hiding the Ark. Nebuchadnezzer collected the deities
    of conquered peoples, building temples in Babylon. The equipment for
    the temple was stored instead of being used in a temple.(See the book
    of Daniel) so it appears that the Ark was hidden at this point. 
    	Certain Kabbalists believed that the Ark was hidden beneath the
    temple mount. Apparently, they believed that the Ark had to remain
    there to maintain the world in its present form.
    One direction of speculation says that  Jeremiah hid the Ark on the
    property that he bought from his Uncle. He visited this property during
    an interval when the Babylonians broke off the siege to go after the
    Egyptians. In fact, he was accused of deserting and imprisoned.
    	My personal theory is that he didn't dare inform anyone of where he
    hid the Ark so he encrypted its location in the book known in English
    as Lamentations. Its Hebrew name is Aycho (translit?) which generally
    means How(The title comes from the first word of the book) but it could
     also mean where.
    A prophecy in the New Testament book of Revelation talks about the two
    witnesses, perhaps hinting of the discovery of the Tables of the Torah
    contained in the Ark.
    
    john