Conference taveng::bagels

According to halacha, if your mother's a Jew, you're a Jew.  This is true
even for apostates, whether their conversion was voluntary or forced.
There's no generational limit.

    Thanks Gerald.  Does everyone else agree? (I know, a silly question)
    
    Ram�n

That is my understanding of the rule also. The documentation back to the
15th century is the hard part of the requirement in your case.

Welcome back.

Dave

All Jews who recognize Halacha agree.  However, the Reform, which has explicitly
discarded Halacha doesn't.  In their ruling, the child of a Jewish parent who
is raised as a Jew is a Jew, no matter which parent is Jewish.  And conversely,
a child of a Jewish parent who is not raised as a Jew is NOT a Jew, no matter
which parent is Jewish.

Gav

    In re .3:
    
    Not very subtle, am I?  And it might not be as hard as you think,
    Dave.
    
    
    Ram�n

    I'd like to ask a question, based on the response given in .1
    
    >According to halacha, if your mother's a Jew, you're a Jew.  This is
    >true even for apostates, whether their conversion was voluntary or
    >forced.  There's no generational limit.
    
    I'm trying to be sure I understand this so I'd like to pose a
    hypothetical question.
    
    Let's say that 5 generations ago, my mother's mother's mother's
    mother's mother was Jewish.  Do I understand the above correctly to
    mean that since she was Jewish, then her daughter was Jewish, thereby
    making her daugher Jewish and so on?
    
    And if somewhere during that line (hypothetically 2 generations ago),
    say my grandmother converted to Christianity.  Would my mother be
    Jewish, even if she believed as my grandmother did?
    
    What's throwing me off is that Gerald pointed in in .1 that it was true
    even for apostates, whether their conversion was voluntary or forced,
    and that there was no generational limit.  Are these the only
    restrictions?
    
    Can you help me understand using the situation I posted here?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Steve
   

re .6:

    Yes to both questions.  The algorithm is very simple.

    I should mention that if your mother**n converted to Judaism according to
    Halacha, you are also considered a Jew according to Halacha.  I'm not sure
    what happens if someone converts to Judaism and then converts back.
    Does anybody know?

    I used to work with a woman who had been raised as a Protestant.  She
    was converting to Catholicism because she was marrying a Catholic.
    Her mother's mother was Jewish, so she was Jewish and her children
    would be Jewish.  She was aware that she was considered Jewish, but I
    imagine that most people in that situation aren't aware of it.

On the subject of the 'quality' of judaism being inherited through the mother,
does anyone know why this is so in halacha? Its a subject thats been on my mind 
a lot given the recent entries (last couple of weeks) in bagels.

As a side question, what is halacha composed of? oral law, torah, a combination?
Sorry if this seems out of the blue but I've just finished a book of Gore Vidals
essays including "Pink Triangle and Yellow Star". This man has some different
ideas (at least, in my experience).

-colin

The "who is a Jew?" question ALWAYS yields a lively discussion, eh?

An Orthodox rabbi almost certainly would require documentary proof. I'm not
sure what a Conservative rabbi might require. I attend a Reform temple so
I'll double-check on the Reform position (possibly tonight).

Traditionally, it is so. If you can prove matrilineal descent from a woman
who was indisputably Jewish, you are accepted as Jewish yourself. Historically,
this has solved a lot of problems in cases of rape or disputed paternity.

Dave

I entered .9 before seeing the question in .8.

Halacha is the body of Jewish law consisting of both a civil and a religious
code. Torah law forms the foundation of halacha, but it is really the oral
law (mishna?) that was developed by the Sanhedron in 2nd Temple times and
written down when it was clear that Roman persecutions would endanger the
Judean state. It also includes the Talmud (written circa 200-400 CE) which
has commentaries and expansions on the mishna, the commentaries on the
commentaries (tosaphot?), and the accumulated rulings of the experts that
continue to the present day.

Dave

    Thanks.
    
    Steve
    

    
    Re: .7
    
    > I'm not sure
    >    what happens if someone converts to Judaism and then converts back.
    >    Does anybody know?
    
    "Once a convert, always a convert" [ger she-shav le-suro ke-yisrael
    mumar lechol davar, vekiddushav kiddushin,(Y.D. 268:2,12)]. This is
    the general principal, but there are a number of factors which may
    come into play. As with any halachic issue, an authority should be
    contacted if the situation is a practical one.
    
    Re: .8
    
    >On the subject of the 'quality' of judaism being inherited through the
    >mother, does anyone know why this is so in halacha?
    
    The Talmud (Kid. 86b) derives this law from a verse in the Bible. One
    may, of course, speculate on the reasons for this law, such as the
    obvious comparative difficulty of proving fatherhood as opposed to
    motherhood. Also, experience shows that the mother is generally the
    one to transmit spiritual values to the children. But again, these 
    reasons are pure speculation.
    
    Jem
    
    
      
    
    
    
    

I wonder whether the question "am I a Jew?" could be settled once-and-for-all
simply by a profession of faith and a visit to the Mikva?

There was some discussion on this a year or so ago when the Ethiopean
Jews returned to Israel -- the Orthodox Rabbinate asked that they
be "re-baptized" and the Ethiopean's refused; saying that there never
was a question in their own minds about their Judiasm.

Here, since the individual himself seems somewhat uncertain, I would
"set a fence around the Torah" by re-converting the individual "just
to be sure," were it my decision to make.  I.e., it can't hurt, right?

Why not ask a Rabbi?

Martin.

    In re .14:
    
    The individual in this case is not the least bit uncertain as to
    his matrilineal origins.  It is simply, at this point, a matter
    of documentary proof at the actual seventeenth generation; all other
    generations have already been documented.  However, said individual
    has nonetheless determined to "set a fence around the law" and is 
    indeed undergoing a formal conversion (to allay any possible
    suspicions).  
    
    Questions?
    
    
    Ram�n

re: .4
I got an informed answer as to the Reform position on "who is a Jew-by-birth?".
A person whose mother is Jewish is always considered Jewish (same as the
Orthodox or Conservative position -- I cannot answer for the Reconstructionists).
In addition, if the father is Jewish and the family makes a recognizable
effort to raise the child as a Jew, then the child is considered Jewish by
the Reform movement. Contrary to the statement in .4, it DOES make a difference
which parent is Jewish.

Dave

    
    Re: .15
    
    >    The individual in this case is not the least bit uncertain as to
    >    his matrilineal origins.
    
    A truly fascinating story. Do you happen to have the date of the New
    York Times article your referred to earlier?
    
    

Ram�n,

If establishing documentation is a major piece of the problem, you may want
to look in to VIXVAX::GENEALOGY.  There are a number of very experienced
genealogical researchers in that conference.  Some of them may have done
Spanish/Mexican research.  They are also alot of help on general methodology
issues.

Gav

    re: .14
    
    A Jew by conversion is the same as a Jew by birth, with (as far as I
    know) one exception - A Cohen is not allowed to marry a convert.
    
    				Paul
    

There is another difference. A Jew by conversion has no family because
s/he has been "reborn". (I cannot imagine anyone taking this law seriously
except in cases where the person's family has become hostile.)

The Marranos of the 15th century (with very few exceptions) never intended to
be Christian permanently. They were threatened with torture and execution
for displaying the slightest signs of Jewish practice (known as Judaizing).
They recorded their geneology very carefully so that they could return to
Judaism in better times. I'm sure they never expected to have to wait 5
centuries, but I, for one, am greatly moved by the possibilities here.

Ramon would certainly need to take the classes that are usually required
for conversion, but a bar mitzvah instead of a formal conversion wouldn't
leave a dry eye in the entire congregation.

Dave

    In RE: .17 and .18
    
    Jem, the article to which I referred appeared in the Sunday Times
    on 11 Nov., 1990.  I believe it was on page 16.
    
    As to the genealogical documentaton, Dick, thanks for the tip.  I am 
    myself a moderately experienced amateur genealogist, having already 
    made the connections to which I've referred.  My research has kept me
    primarily in the Southwest (we New Mexicans can go back to 1598 just 
    in New Mexico alone), with some excursions into Mexico and Spain.
    
    A sidenote: Hispanic matrilineal genealogical research is a good
    deal easier than it might be in other cultures because of the fact
    that women keep (kept) their maiden surnames all their life.  Until
    relatively recently, a woman never took her husband's surname. 
    And since Hispanics often had TWO surnames (their patronymic and
    matronymic), the lines are far easier to document.
    
    
    Ram�n
                                               

    Dave:
    
    There is one caveat to the fact that "New Christians" documented their
    genealogies very carefully: often, because of the severe threat
    that any written family trees might pose to the conversos, said lineages
    were verbally passed from parent to child when the former revealed
    that the family was actually Jewish (when the child reached between
    the ages of 13--bar mitzvah time--and 20).  
    
    Remember, to get to the new world, potential emigrants had to provide 
    what was known as a document of "limpieza de sangre," or purity of 
    blood.  This was because the Spaniards were leery of having these newly 
    converted Catholics spoil the Christianizing effort among the 
    American Natives.  There was a common saying in Catholic Spain 
    which went, "Un perro vuelve a su v�mito," that is, "A dog returns
    to his vomit" (how pleasant, eh?).  As a consequence, a large industry
    evolved around forging said "limpieza de sangre" papers.  Evidently,
    these forgeries were quite successful as a number of conversos made it 
    across (witness the large number of "Judaizers"--judaizantes in
    Spanish--who were prosecuted by the Inquisition in Mexico City and
    Lima, Per�).        
    
    I am incidentally taking all the required classes.  As to whether
    I need simply a Bar Mitzvah rather than a mikvah and the associated
    ritual drop of blood, I would rather err on the side of caution.
    Better safe than sorry, wouldn't you say?
    
    Ram�n
                                                         

    I find this a really fascinating unfolding story!  I hope that if you
    are in the central Massachusetts area, you can come and speak at our
    schul; I'm sure our members would be very interested in your
    experiences.  Better yet, write a book!  (I'm serious - a lot of people
    would also find your story as mocing as I do.)
    
    /Charlotte

    Charlotte:
    
    Shul.  Is that the same thing as a "sinagoga?"
    
    Adi� ;^)
    Ram�n

    
    Re: .20
    
    >There is another difference. A Jew by conversion has no family because
    >s/he has been "reborn".
    
    To the degree that, according to strict Biblical law, the convert
    would be permitted to wed his/her sister/brother (if they converted
    also, of course). In practice I don't believe this ever happened,
    and it's forbidden by the Talmud. 
    
    BTW, thanks for the pointer, Ramon.
    
    Jem  

Ram�n,

Did I detect a familiar name in this month's Haddasah magazine?

Gav

    Gav:
    
    Sho 'nuf.  A Converso friend of mine told me about the story, although 
    I haven't yet seen it.  Incredible.
    
    Ram�n