Conference taveng::bagels

First of all mazal tov!! Tizkeh legadela leTorah, chupa, uma'asim tovim.

>I happened to scan ahead a
>bit and noticed that the wives of Esau are mentioned a second time in
>Gen 36.2 and 36.3. This time they are Adah daughter of Elon, Oholibamah
>daughter of Anah, and Basemath daughter of Ishmael. There is one new
>father-in-law, two new wives, and Basemath appears to have switched families.
>I can't make sense out of this. Can anyone help?

Rashi says that Adah and Basemat (daughter of Elon) were the same person, 
the latter nickname (meaning "perfume") reflecting her use of fragrances. 
Similarly, Oholibamah is Yehudit, Esau having given her that name ("Jewess") 
in order to trick his father into thinking that she had repudiated idolatry. 
Basemath was apparently a popular nickname, since Esau actually had two wives
with that name, but Basemat daughter of Ishmael was the same as Machalat
mentioned earlier. 

Oholibamah's lineage indeed presents a problem at first blush, according to
Rashi's interpretation (i.e. Oholibamah = Yehudit), since Yehudit's father
is given as Be'eri the Hittite, and Oholibamah's father is called Anah.
Some commentators say that Anah was a woman, thus Oholibamah/Yehudit was 
daughter of Be'eri and Anah. 

Are you less confused now, or more so? :-)

Jem

re .1:

>Rashi says that Adah and Basemat (daughter of Elon) were the same person, 
>the latter nickname (meaning "perfume") reflecting her use of fragrances. 
>Similarly, Oholibamah is Yehudit, Esau having given her that name ("Jewess") 
>in order to trick his father into thinking that she had repudiated idolatry. 

if you want a REALLY wild d'var torah, you could look into all the times 
that two seemingly different people are said by chazal to be the same.

(i dont have a chumash handy, so bear with me)

In Megillat Esther, Esther's servent Hatach is said to be Daniel (of Lion's Den
fame)

Of the seven kings of Persia mentioned in Ezra and Nechamia (i think), a number
of them (4?) are identified.

Despite all the variant names os Moshe's father in law (Yitro, Yeter, Reuel), 
chazal insist that they are all the same person.  It is quite possible that 
Moshe had more than one wife, esp in light of 'Parshat Miriam' - when Miriam
spoke against Moshe 'because of the Cushite wife he took' (end of Bahalotcha?).

Malkitzedek King of Salem (in Parshat Lech Lecha) is equated with Shem the son
of Noah

there are many more examples.

AND on the other hand, a reverse example:

In Parshat Vayeshev, Yosef is sold to "Potiphar, servent of Pharoh, Chief of the
Buthers (Sar Hatabachim)."  After Yosef is made Prime Minister, he marries
Asnat, the daughter of "Poti Phera (2 words) the Priest of On."  There are 
midrashim that equate the two (Potiphar == Poti Phera), but Rashi, I believe,
says they are not the same man.

Go figure (or better yet, go learn)

			Louuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

Re: .2

>Despite all the variant names os Moshe's father in law (Yitro, Yeter, Reuel), 

In addition, he was called Chovav, Chever, Kini, and Putiel. 

> There are 
>midrashim that equate the two (Potiphar == Poti Phera), but Rashi, I believe,
>says they are not the same man.

Rashi says that they were in fact the same man.

Jem

Since I thoughtfully provided my daughter with younger twin brothers, there
is plenty of subject matter for a divar. Thanks for the info.

Dave

It is paradoxical that to fool his father, Esau names his wife after his
unborn nephew Judah. Oh well, just another example of "no before or after
in the Torah". I had a feeling this subject would be compicated.

Dave

Re: .5

>It is paradoxical that to fool his father, Esau names his wife after his
>unborn nephew Judah. Oh well, just another example of "no before or after
>in the Torah".

Not necessarily. Based on the stories and names related in Genesis, it
seems apparent that the _avot_ spoke some Hebrew-like dialect. "Yehudah"
(fem. "Yehudit") means simply "praise," ("...now will I praise the L-rd, 
therefore she called his name Yehudah..." [Gen. 30:35]), which is a 
*concept* that did not originate with Leah, rather (at least in a monotheistic 
sense), Abraham. Esau knew very well what pleased his father, and certainly 
his father's house was filled with constant references to thanking and
praising G-d. 

Jem 

     Question to .6
    
    I notice that you spell God, G-d.  May I ask if there is a reason?  I
    am a Gentile just wanting to learn about Jews.
    
    
    
                              Marshall

Any piece of paper with G-d's name on it must not be burned nor thrown
away, but instead must be buried with proper ceremony. It is much easier
to avoid spelling that name out in the first place.

Somewhere in BAGELS there is an opinion that electronic communication
does not require the usual caution. However, many Bagelers must extract
and print these notes and it would be helpful to them if "G-d" were always
spelt with the "-".

By the way, in speaking aloud, some Jews avoid saying any of G-d's
names except when actually uttering a prayer. (I won't go into the words
used as substitutes.) This is to avoid using G-d's name in vain.

Dave

    Thanks for taking the time to explain it to me.
    
    
                                Marshall