Conference taveng::bagels

I'm sure you're capable of purchasing a newspapaer, McAllen.
Why don't you just get to the point, and state your opinion
of the matter. Your "innocent questions" are rather transparent.

> I'm sure you're capable of purchasing a newspapaer, McAllen.
> Why don't you just get to the point, and state your opinion
> of the matter. Your "innocent questions" are rather transparent.

Is there some reason you had to make this unnecessarily nasty reply?

    Sorry, but I didn't hear the names of publisher or
    author either. Nor was it clear which government(s)
    had requested the restraining orders against sale of the
    book.
    

Re: .2

>Is there some reason you had to make this unnecessarily nasty reply?

Do a dir/author=mcallen (better hurry, before he deletes them all. :-)

    To answer jem's .1 , I have no further information about
    the book, its author, the sales restraint, etc. at this
    time. If I come across any newspaper articles about the
    "banned MOSSAD book", I'll paraphrase, extract, or provide
    a pointer to them here. I hope other BAGELers will do the same.
    Again, this morning's very brief CNN TV blurb is *all* I've heard,.
    So, I would hesitate to form an opinion without further information.
    I welcome any corrections to the basenote, as the newscast
    was quite brief and caught me totally by surprise.
    
    I'm only aware of 2 or 3 instances of publications in the
    USA being prohibited (on this basis) in the past. And again,
    I'm unsure the USA was mentioned, along with Canada. The
    timing of this episode, in terms of the Iraq/Kuwait/Saudi
    events is interesting.
    
    I guess there is no general MOSSAD topic within BAGELS (?).
    There is however a discussion of Israel's Shin Beth
    secret police in topic 161.
    
    Jem, FWIW I welcome your participation in this topic. There is
    *no intent to provoke you* here, but I would like to promote a
    discussion the potential controversy around this book. If that
    bothers you, how about handling it offline with me and/or the
    moderators.
    
    -John
    

The book -- sorry, I forgot the title too, and didn't bring a paper with
me today -- is an expos� of Mossad by, as I recall, an ex-agent now living
in Canada.

Judges in Canada and the United States blocked publication in their
respective jurisdictions because of potential risk to individuals.

Martin.

There's an article in the Boston Globe about this.  Presumably there's an
article in the NY Times.  Pick up your favorite newspaper and read what's
out on the wire services.

    This was mentioned in t.p.m.  Allegedly the book "By Way of
    Deception: A Devastating Insider's Portrait of the Mossad" by Victor
    Ostrovski, says that the Mossad knew of plans for an attack in 
    Lebanon before the suicide bombing of the Marines, but didn't tell
    the U.S. because it wanted the attack to take place to further sour
    U.S. Arab relations. 
    

    re:-1
    
    While I can't comment on the truth about Israel's knowledge about the
    bombing, if its true they have a good teacher.  FDR knew about the
    bombing of Pearl Harbor and did nothing, so as to encourage the US to 
    get into WW II.  This is according to Morrison the official US Navy 
    hitorian.
    
    Warren

    Re: .9  (FDR)
    
    Is this written down somewhere?  I'd be interested
    in reading the details.
    
    

vulture n 1: any of various large raptorial birds... that subsist chiefly
  or entirely on carrion  2: a rapacious or predatory person

There is nary an organization in existence with employees, which is totally 
without some frustrated or disgruntled employees, who will spare no effort
in their search for revenge. 

Likewise, there is no country in the world, especially in the Mideast, 
which sees fit to operate without a secret force of some sort. Secrecy
is an unfortunate necessity in some situations, and oftentimes can lead
to abuses and corruption. These issues should be pursued in the same manner
as other crimes, with the aim of bringing the alleged perpetrators to justice.

What comes under suspicion, in my opinion, are individuals who consistently
hone in on alleged abuses of organizations associated with only one country,
ideology or ethnicity, while utterly ignoring those of all others. This kind 
of one-sidedness bespeaks not a true interest in justice, but profound 
prejudices, for which new pretexts are constantly required to mask the 
underlying agenda.

True justice-seekers, on the other hand, wait for hard facts to emerge *before*
they attack, slander or insinuate. Neither is their criticism limited to
those who happen to disagree with their own ideology.

I'd like to discuss this case more when their are some legal accusations 
made and when the accused parties have the opportunity to face their
accusers. In the meantime, perhaps we should discuss less speculative current 
and past atrocities committed by individuals and countries, regardless of
their political affiliation. 

Jem

    Jem, you're late, I'm afriad. The book's author Ostrovski was
    interviewed on TV last night. He says he's already been warned
    by persons unnamed that he can consider himself "dead meat". 
    Could this be just one more gimmick to boost sales receipts?
    You mentioned possible legal charges. Did you have anything
    specific in mind, perhaps pertaining to criminal activities
    allegedly revealed by the book?
    
    As I now understand it, the move to prohibit sale of the book was
    initiated by the Israeli government. Although the motion was
    temporarily granted, it was overturned (in USA) yesterday, when
    a judge (?) determined that the lawyers for the Israeli gvt did
    not produce sufficient evidence that persons' (MOSSAD agents'?)
    lives would be jeopardized.
    
    Apparently there are at least two different wrappers or covers
    for the book. One is glossy black. Did anyone catch the name
    (or location) of the book publisher(s)?
    

  I saw Tom Brokaw interview Victor Ostrovsky on yesterday's NBC evening news.

	"Mr. Ostrovsky, aren't you afraid that if this information is
	 disclosed, the American people will all hate the Jews as much
	 as I obviously do?"

	"It's a chance I'll have to take."

  -- Bill B.

>"Mr. Ostrovsky, aren't you afraid that if this information is
>disclosed, the American people will all hate the Jews as much
>as I obviously do?"

Did he really say this?  If so in what context?

--David

>>"Mr. Ostrovsky, aren't you afraid that if this information is
>>disclosed, the American people will all hate the Jews as much
>>as I obviously do?"

>Did he really say this?  If so in what context?

  Well, since I don't have a verbatim transcript of what he said, I'm
  forced to take a few liberties -- but the sneering look of hatred on
  Mr. Brokaw's face was as unmistakable as the anti-Israel bias in his
  Middle East reporting.

  The context was the assertion in Mr. Ostrovsky's book that the Mossad
  was warned in advance of the terrorist bombing in Lebanon which killed
  240 U.S. Marines, but purposely whithheld the information.  Outrageous,
  but even in the event it's true, it's a small matter when compared to
  the Jonathan Pollack affaire wherein the CIA attempted to hide the
  very existance of Arab chemical warfare weaponry from Israel.

  -- Bill B.

    Re; Brokaw
    
    The fun thing about this is, the American-Arab AntiDiscrimination
    Committee is currently discussing with NBC executives the "anti-Arab"
    bias in NBC's reporting and dramatic programs.
    

>   The fun thing about this is, the American-Arab AntiDiscrimination
>   Committee is currently discussing with NBC executives the "anti-Arab"
>   bias in NBC's reporting and dramatic programs.

  They're partially right.

  Brokaw appears to be biased against Arabs in some areas, e.g., Iraqi
  Arabs vs. Iraqi Kurds, Lebanese Arab hostage-takers vs. Westerners in
  Beirut, Iraqi Arabs vs. Westerners in Kuwait, the Pan Am Flight 101
  Lockerbie incident, the Achille Lauro incident,...  In these cases he
  rarely gives us the Arab point of view.

  But in Arabs vs. Israel his bias is always against Israel.

  -- Bill B.

    In the cable tv interview (I think on CNN Larry King Live), it seemed
    when Ostovski was pinned down as to exactly what the Israeli Intelli-
    gence knew (and when) he did NOT indicate that they knew specifically
    that the barracks would be attacked. He indicated that like alot of 
    strategic targets, it was one that COULD be the target of terrorist
    activity. 
    
    I think this book is sensationalistic and manipulative. I also think
    network and print media is, has been in the past, and will be in the
    future -- biased. I think to some degree Ostrovski was trying to make 
    a buck on his book. 

(i know is off the topic but i didn't bring it up...)

what was that about FDR and Pearl Harbor?
any more info or sources?

    A historian by the name of Morrison wrote the US naval history of WWII. 
    He was doing so with the official approval of the US Navy and was a
    Naval Officer (probably Reserve).  He states that the bombing of a
    Pacific Naval target was expected and that FDR knew and allowed the
    bombing to occur so as to rile up the American people and get them into
    the War on the side of Britan.  One has to rememeber that there was
    considerable forces with the US that wanted us to remain neutral.  The
    key to this was that the prime target was thought to be Midway Island,
    which was much less of a loss if it was distroyed.  However, it seems
    that weather forecasts for Midway were such that a bombing raid was not
    practical.  
    
    There was finally a message sent to the comander of the fleet in Pearl
    Harbor, but it was sent through Western Union and not normal military
    channels.  This caused the message to be greatly delayed, something
    that was expected as they didn't want it to get there in time.  I will
    try to reserach the books but I read them along time ago.
    
    Warren

>what was that about FDR and Pearl Harbor?
>any more info or sources?

re:  .-several

	There is a relatively new (last 3-4 years) book by a UMass
	professor (don't have the book in my office, sorry, and I
	read a borrowed copy...) called "The Abandonment of the
	Jews". I'll try to remember to get the details for you.

	The book has a wealth of information on Roosevelt's behavior
	in WW-II, including Pearl Harbor. It is quite an eye-opener for 
	people (like me...) who were brought up in homes where FDR was 
	"worshipped".

don feinberg

  The following article is reprinted without permission from the September 21,
  1990 issue of The Jewish Press:

		EX-MOSSAD EMPLOYEE'S BOOK MORE LIES THAN FACTS
			    by Avrohom Shmuel Lewin

  JERUSALEM - Ex-Mossad employee Victor Ostrovsky's controversial book on
  Israel's secret foreign service, _By_Way_of_Deception_, is filled with
  "inaccuracies, gossip, and outright fantasies," according to Israeli
  intelligence sources.  Avi Panzer, Prime Minister Yitzchak Shamir's media
  advisor, also issued a statement last week describing the book as a
  combination of few facts and a lot of imagination and lies.

  In his book Ostrovsky chronicles his alleged experiences as a trainee and
  officer in the Mossad, and in the process reveals details of alleged
  recruitment and training procedures, techniques, codes and transmission
  systems, and covert activities in foreign countries.  The book, published
  by St. Martin's Press, provides names, even those of Mossad chiefs,
  addresses of Mossad installations -- including the building he claims is
  the headquarters -- and information about ties between Mossad and other
  security services.  He also supplements the text of his book with charts
  detailing the organization and structure of Mossad units, the floor layout
  of the "Mossad Academy", a Mossad computer printout on the structure of
  Danish intelligence, and even a copy of his monthly Mossad pay sheet.

  He details numerous operations carried out by the service.  These include
  claims that Mossad agents leaded information to a Haaretz journalist that
  led to the resignation of former Prime Minister Yitzchak Rabin in 1977,
  and that the Mossad misled the CIA on the Western hostages in Lebanon and
  plans to bomb the U.S. Marines barracks in 1983.

  Prime Minister Yitzchak Shamir in an interview with the Jerusalem Post
  flatly denied Ostrovsky's allegations that Israel withheld intelligence
  information from the U.S. about a bombing against an American target in
  Lebanon or that Israel operates a super-secret spy ring in the U.S.  "It
  is all lies," Shamir declared.  "The whole book was written with evil
  intensions based on bad will and lies," he said.

  Two former Mossad chiefs, Isar Harel and Meir Amit, said that they viewed
  Ostrovsky as a liar and traitor.  Harel said that "According to the
  published material in the papers, I think that this is a lot of lies, gossip
  and inventions.  I don't think that there is any ideological background
  behind the book, just simple hatred for Israel."

  Eliyahu Ben-Elissar, who had worked in the Mossad before turning into
  politics and becoming chairman of the Knesset Foreign Affairs and Defense
  Committee said that Ostrovsky "was there for a few months.  He knew people,
  met them.  Of course some things were true."  But he ridicules some of the
  stories in the book labeling them "idiotic".

  "Ostrovsky is not a sick man.  He is a man who decided to make money and
  cares about nothing," said Ben-Elissar.

  The book, which was written with the collaboration of journalist Claire
  Hoy, is slated to appear in Canada next month but Israel won a temporary
  restraining order in Canada preventing its publication.  But last Thursday
  a four-judge appeals court panel in N.Y. handed a victory to Ostrovsky when
  they vacated a restraining order granted Wednesday morning that temporarily
  blocked distribution of the book.  In their decision the judges ruled that
  lawyers for the Israeli government had "failed to substantiate the requisite
  elements for a temporary restraining order", and the claim "that the safety
  of Israeli agents is endangered by the defendent's (St. Martin's Press)
  further acts of publication and dissemination of the book has not been
  sufficiently supported."

  The controversial book has already sold its entire first printing of 50,000
  copies.  A spokesman for St. Martin's Press said that Israel's attempt to
  legally prevent the publication was what boosted its sales.

  The same idea was echoed by an Israeli diplomat who said, "We turned Ostrov-
  sky into a millionaire.  A book that could have remained on the shelves
  gathering dust has now become a bestseller.  In addition, there's a chance
  now, according to an NBC report, that Israel-U.S. relations could be
  strained as a result of the incident detailed in the book that the Mossad
  held back information from the CIA that could have saved American lives.

  However, Prime Minister Yitzchak Shamir defended Israel's decision to
  contest publication of the book in Canadian and American courts.  "No, no,
  it was not a mistake," he said, adding that a legal issue had been at stake.
  "When there is a person who worked for you yesterday, who committed himself
  to keep secret all the information he receives -- he committed himself and
  he violated his commitment -- do you have to forgive him?  There was an
  effort to go to court, and say the man violated his commitment.  We are
  asking the court to prevent this violation.  In fact, in Canada this
  worked."

  According to a report in the Jerusalem Post, Israelis who know Ostrovsky
  described him as very intelligent, ambitious, and motivated by greed.  But
  he failed to make it in the Navy and the Mossad, and his efforts in business
  ended in disaster when he was swamped by debts.

  Meanwhile, the Canadian publisher of the book reported an overnight break-in
  Saturday, which police described as a professional job.  Nothing was stolen,
  but a number of files showed evidence of having been examined.

  In Jerusalem, the head of the Mossad appeared before the Intelligence
  Subcommittee of the Knesset Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee Sunday to
  help it assess possible damage to ties with the U.S. stemming from
  assertions made in the book.  Politicians from the Likud and opposition
  parties stepped up their criticism of the government's failed bid to block
  the book's publication.

    The author of this book was interviewed by Sam Donaldson on Prime
    Time-Live last night. When questioned about specifics, it seemed that
    many of his claims required streches of the imagination.  He quoted
    conversations of people that occurred months/years before he went into
    training. He even tried to make it seem out of the ordinary that Israel
    would "bug" the Kuwaitie UN ambassador's residence.  Give me a break...
    every country bugs its enemy's embassies.  Look at the embassy we had
    built in Moscow... it was one large Russian microphone.
    
    I'm certain that this book will remain a best seller since every
    "sonneh yisroel" will want a copy to verify and validate his/her
    antipathy.
    
    __Av

re: .21

>>	called "The Abandonment of the Jews". 

By David Wyman? (this is from memory, but I think that's the author - excellent
but depressing book.)

>>>	called "The Abandonment of the Jews". 
>
>By David Wyman? (this is from memory, but I think that's the author - excellent
>but depressing book.)

	Yep.  That's the one.

don

[crossposted from conference PAGODA::SCANDIA, press KP7 to add....]
    
               <<< PAGODA::DUB19:[NOTES$LIBRARY]SCANDIA.NOTE;2 >>>
                           -< All about Scandinavia >-
================================================================================
Note 427.0      Israeli intelligence agency operating in Denmark?     No replies
CHARLT::SAVAGE                                       52 lines  11-OCT-1990 14:14
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    From: [email protected] (JULIAN M. ISHERWOOD)
    Newsgroups: clari.news.europe,clari.news.gov.corrupt,
	clari.news.gov.international
    Subject: Danish parliament investigates Israel's Mossad
    Keywords: international, intelligence, government, government corruption,
	non-usa government
    Date: 10 Oct 90 13:33:40 GMT
    Location: denmark, mideast
    ACategory: international
    Slugword: denmark-mossad
 
    	COPENHAGEN, Denmark (UPI) -- Denmark's parliamentary Intelligence
    Committee met Wednesday to discuss allegations that Israel's
    intelligence agency Mossad is working illegally in Denmark.	The
    decision to call the meeting followed allegations that Mossad is active
    in Denmark inviolation of Danish law and practice and despite previous
    government assurances the agency was passive in the country.

    	Unconfirmed reports said that Mossad eavesdropped on Arabs living
    in or visiting Denmark and that Denmark's own intelligence agency used
    Mossad to screen visa applications from Arab nationals.

    	The current controversy erupted with the publication in the United
    States of "By Way of Deception," a book on the Israeli intelligence
    agency written by former Mossad agent Victor Ostrovsky.  Ostrovsky
    wrote that a liaison officer in Denmark's Police Intelligence Agency
    routinely screened indigenous Arabs seeking visas with Mossad, and told
    Danish television Sunday a DPIA agent also routinely furnished Mossad
    with tapes of bugged conversations.

    	Despite denials by Justice Minister Hans Engell and DPIA Chief
    Anne- Mette Moller that details in Ostrovsky's book were incorrect, the
    parliamentary committee decided to investigate.  "We have no knowledge
    that Mossad actively carries out operations in Denmark. If they are
    doing so, their operations are contrary to Danish legislation," Engell
    said.

    	But following a meeting Monday with Engell, some committee members
    said they remained uncertain about Mossad's role in the country and
    called for a further investigation.	"If there are members of the
    committee who do not feel they have been given a full enough report on
    the issue, then I do not think we should use a majority to shut them
    up," said Liberal committee member Bjorn Elmquist.

    	Elmquist's party is in a three party, Conservative-led coalition
    ruling the country.	"We have been assured that not all visa
    applications are checked with Mossad," said Elmquist, who said
    cooperation between Denmark's intelligence agency and foreign
    intelligence agencies is necessary.

    	Wednesday's meeting was expected to result in a further
    investigation into contacts between Mossad and the DPIA.

    Will you also post the findings of the investigation in Denmark, plese?

>..  "inaccuracies, gossip, and outright fantasies," according to Israeli
>  intelligence sources.

Did we _really_ expect the Israeli "intelligence" sources to say anything
else?  Come now...even James Bond wouldn't tell the truth to the press.

>  Avi Panzer, Prime Minister Yitzchak Shamir's media
>  advisor, also issued a statement last week describing the book as a
>  combination of few facts and a lot of imagination and lies.

Of course.  Shamir will say ANYTHING to keep himself in power and off
the hook.

>...  is all lies," Shamir declared.  "The whole book was written with evil
>  intensions based on bad will and lies," he said.

Of course!  What was he going to say..."...it the truth and nothing but the
truth!".

>  Two former Mossad chiefs, Isar Harel and Meir Amit, said that they viewed
>  Ostrovsky as a liar and traitor.

Isn't it amazing that "intelligence folks" (aka spys) tend to think the
general public has the mental capacity of an ant?


In any event, I picked up a copy of this book last weekend and didn't put
it down until I finished.  Let's assume, for purposes of example (and
allow for a guy-trying-to-make-a-buck as well as a little literary licence),
that only 10% is true.  A very sad story indeed as well as a very dangerous
situation.  Personally I think this is the kind of thing that can easily
happen when the "church and state" are one in the same thing as well as
_using_ history to justify illegal, violent, and corrupt activities rather
than learning from history to prevent these problems.  All you have to do
is look at some of Israel's neighbors who appear practice the same thing.

My opinion (and not that of my employer/rabbi/etc):  Israel is heading
rapidly down a path that might make "language" the only differentiating
factor between it and it's neighbors.  

    Re: -.1
    
    I understand you have absolutely no trust in Israel government, they
    are all crooks, second only to Israeli intellegence.  You have a right to 
    your opinion.  But what did it make you to trust the book's author?  
    How did you figure out how much is true (10 percent, you say) and what 
    is true and what not?
    
    Leo

picking up on a comment in .16

>> the Jonathan Pollack affaire wherein the CIA attempted to hide the
>>  very existance of Arab chemical warfare weaponry from Israel.

I remember hearing of Pollack's conviction for espionage, but not of this.
Could you give me more details?

    Perhaps this has already been answered somewhere above:
    
    Is the subject book "By Way of Deception..." available
    for purchase, legally, within Israel? Did the government
    of Israel take steps at any time to prohibit publication or
    sale of the book there, or in greater Israel (O.T.'s, etc.) ?