Conference taveng::bagels

	Is Petra the city with the ancient floor map mosaic of Jerusalem, that
has been used as a guide for modern archological digs? If so, it must be an
incredible thing to take a look at. On the other hand, maybe they just wanted
an adventure abroad

DG

>1) Does anyone know the significance of this site (the kids claimed
>"every Israeli dreams of visiting this city.")? The youngsters were said to 
>be carrying yarmulkas in their pockets -- is there some religious association
>to this town?

   The site was the capital of the ancient Nabatien Kingdom.  There 
   are some superb ruins left.
  
   They were carrying yarmulkas in their pockets because they 
   usually wear them but felt that dressed in this fashion 
   while visiting illegally in Jordan might not be too wise!  
   Once they were arrested and admitted who they were they put 
   them back on.

>2) How do people cross the border so easily? Is it (hopefully) a little
>harder to cross the other way?

   There was a short interview in the paper with Dan Shomron, Chief Of 
   Staff, in which he was asked just this question.  His answer was 
   that emphasis is put on preventing border crossing INto Israel not 
   from Israel.

If you want to know what Petra looks like, see the movie "Indiana Jones and the
Last Crusade".  The exterior scenes of the lost city of whatever-it-was-called
were filmed there.

re .1
>	Is Petra the city with the ancient floor map mosaic of Jerusalem, that
>has been used as a guide for modern archological digs? 

No, you are referring to Meidba.  The mosaic is known as the Meidba map.

re .0 
The two 17-year olds were members of Bnei Akiva.  
As an ex-member, youth leader and member of the national steering committee
in Australia of this world-wide youth movement, I regret to report this fact,
as well as the fact that one of the two youths actually was a youth leader 
himself.

What a stupid irresponsible action.

Getting them back, risked the lives of many people, as well as costing no
small amount in monetary and diplomatic terms.

I hope they get their just desserts !!! (the deserts they got already).

Jonathan

Jonathan - 

Other than a severe spanking, what just desserts do you think they should get?
Most of the newspaper coverage I saw of their adventure portrayed it as quite
exciting, if a bit dangerous.  The Jordanians were "very nice".  If I were an
adventurous 17-year-old, nothing I read in these reports would scare me off 
-- just the opposite. 

So as a former B.A. madrich, you tell me:  What kind of example should be made
of these two to keep other kids from doing it?  To begin with, they (and their
parents) should be presented with the bill for the hundreds of thousands of
dollars the search operation cost the public.  Any other ideas?

.5> To begin with, they (and their
.5> parents) should be presented with the bill for the hundreds of thousands of
.5> dollars the search operation cost the public.

Good start.  Then charge them with violating the law that forbids unauthorized
travel to countries with which Israel is at war.  Make them sweat plenty, then
give them probation and a fine that's large enough that it'll really hurt.

The idea of going to Petra *is* exciting.  It's also dangerous to those who try
it, and potentially to others, as well.  That's why the consequences should be
made sufficiently unpleasant to discourage people from trying.

Sid,

I'm sure it's very exciting to go to Petra, however people (including 
adventurous teenagers) have to know that there are things one can do, and
things that one cannot do.

Endangering one's life for no good reason and blatantly breaking the law, 
deserves more than a finger-waggling "nu, nu, nu".  You don't really
believe in spanking them, do you?

As a parent, it makes me shudder to think that a chap like that, has charge of 
impressionable kids, who at the most are six or seven years younger.
A madrich has to attempt to be a positive role model, he has considerable
influence on his chanichim.

Eric's ideas of making them return at least part of the expense and pressing 
charges is in the right direction. I don't know if a jail sentence is the right
thing, but certainly some community service (without responsibility).

I'm in two minds about banning them from serving as officers in the army.
No doubt of their bravery (maybe, bravado is the word), but would you like
to follow someone who doesn't think out his actions too far?

    I can't believe that people are screaming for capital punishment or
    something close to it, all for two kids who were two more in the long
    line of curiosity seekers.  Yes, I realize that it costs $$$ to
    extricate them, and they probably should be fined. However what always 
    struck me about the "neighborhood sport of the Arava" is that people 
    wanted to sneak off to see an ancient Nabatean city.  How many teenagers 
    do you who would pursue culture?
    
    
    --David

Re: .2

>   The site was the capital of the ancient Nabatien Kingdom.  There 
>   are some superb ruins left.

>   They were carrying yarmulkas in their pockets because they 
>   usually wear them but felt that dressed in this fashion 
>   while visiting illegally in Jordan might not be too wise!  
>   Once they were arrested and admitted who they were they put 
>   them back on.

So there's no specific Jewish significance to the site? The Times 
article left the impression that there was.

Jem

.8>    I can't believe that people are screaming for capital punishment or
.8>    something close to it ...

Neither can I, probably because it isn't happening.  In any case, it's a
foregone conclusion that they won't even go to jail.

The point is that their "pursuit of culture" was extremely irresponsible.  They
endangered their own lives, their actions could have endangered others, and
they broke the law.  They should be given punishment that is severe enough to
discourage future "curiosity seekers".

    re: .8
    
    It seems to me more like the `sport' of riding  ON TOP of elevators
    that became popular on some U.S. campuses last year--with attendant
    fatalities.

    I hope the boys are made to realize that they endangered more than
    their own lives.  This incident could EASILY have set off an
    international conflagration that would be hard to stop.  Considering
    the current situation in the area, I'm extremely grateful to all the
    officials--Israeli, Jordanian, Italian, and others-behind-the-scenes
    --who brought this incident to a peaceful conclusion.  An  incident
    like this provides a perfect excuse to anybody who wants to start
    a military action. Just think:  "They infiltrated our borders"(Jordan);
    "They shot our boys"(Israel); "They want to destroy Moslem
    sites"(Iraq).
    
    There's a long list of wars touched off by less than this.
    
    Maurene

Here's a first-hand account from someone who found a legal way to do it.

From decwrl::[email protected] Thu Sep 13 00:43:50 1990
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 90 00:43:44 EDT
From: decwrl::[email protected]
To: jem%[email protected] (Jem Steinberg)
Subject: Re: Petra?!
Status: R

My wife and I were able to visit Petra (and the rest of Jordan) about
a year ago this past spring.  At the time, we were living in Israel so
it was necessary to take a bus to Cairo, obtain new American
passports, take another bus from Cairo to Nuweiba on the Sinai coast
and from there catch a ferry to Aqaba.  Petra is an ancient Nabatian
(sp?) city carved into the red stone mountains just over from Wadi
Araba (the Arava desert).  While I wouldn't say that it is worth dying
for, Petra was one of the more spectacular places I've ever been to.
I didn't see it myself, but I was told that some scenes in the most
recent Indiana Jones movie were shot in Petra.  In Israel during the
50's there was a popular song called 'Hasela Ha'adom' which was about
the lure of Petra.  Due to the fact that a number of boys were
crossing over to see 'the red rock' (and some of them weren't coming
back), the song was banned from the Israeli airwaves.  I would think
that one would need to know the schedule of the Israeli border patrol
in the Arava in order to evade being shot at while returning to
Israel.  The Jordanians didn't seem to patrol the Arava border nearly
as carefully as the Israelis.  I guess that they have less to fear.

Ken Lebowitz
Atex Publishing Systems, Bedford, MA

	This is my first input of any kind in this conference as I am only
a visitor.  I have been reading this conference for about 6 months in hope of
gaining a better understanding of Jews, and Judaism.  This particular note
struck me and I thought that possibly I could add something to the discussion.
I'm sorry for the length, but there is so much information about the 
regeneration and regathering, as well as prophetic Israel in the Old Testament,
that I thought it necessary to give "some" background of where I was coming
from.

	I don't know where the readership is on issues concerning the 
prophetic passages that deal with Israel, but suffice to say there are many
in the writings of the Old Testament prophets.

	The prophet Isaiah spoke of a remnant that will survive in 
Isaiah 10:20-23.  Isaiah also speaks about this remnant being protected by
the presence of G_d in Isaiah 41:8-16.  In the midst of incredible persecution,
G_d will make provision for that remnant in Isaiah 41:17-20.  Just as G_d
miraculously provided food and water for the nation of Israel in the Sinai, 
He will again provide.

	What does all this have to do with Petra you ask?  Well, in Christian
circles, some believe that at some point, the one whom the prophet Daniel
describes as "the little horn", "the prince that shall come", "the desolator",
or whom Christians refer to as "the Antichrist", will create an intense 
persecution on the Jews.  Daniel spoke of the abomination of desolation where
some believe this person will defile the temple (of course it needs to be
rebuilt first, and that's a whole different topic) and set out to destroy the
Jews once and for all.

	Once this happens (abomination of desolation, intense persecution of 
the Jews), the Jews will need a place of refuge.  Although I'm sure that the 
readership here does not read the New Testament, there is a verse there that 
states that "then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains."  This
passage is talking to the period when this persecution occurs.  If this 
persecution is to take place, and the Jews are to flee, where would they go?  
The prophet Micah in Micah 2:12 spoke of the city of Bozrah.  Here, this 
remnant is to be gathered as sheep.

	Bozrah was located in the region of Mount Seir.  Mount Seir means "hairy
mountains" which attest to its topography.  Mount Seir is located in the 
western side of ancient Edom which extends from the southeast of the Dead Sea
down to the city of Akaba.  This area today is located in southern Jordan.

	Actually, there are two places that could fit this city of refuge that
are located in the mountain range of Mount Seir.  One is the present Arab 
village of Buseira, which seems to retain the name of Bozrah.  The other city
is Petra.  A few believe that Petra fits the bill as this city of refuge 
because it is totally surrounded by mountains.  The only way in and out of the
city is through a narrow passageway that extends for about a mile.  This 
entrance/exit can only be negotiated by foot or horseback.  This would make
the city easily defended and fits with the description given by the prophet
Isaiah in Isaiah 33:16.  The very name of Bozrah means "sheepfold", and a
sheepfold in ancient times had a very narrow entrance so the shepherd could
count his sheep easily.  Petra is shaped just like a sheepfold with its 
narrow entrance/exit opening up to a spacious circle surrounded by cliffs.

	Another indication comes again from the prophet Daniel from Daniel
11:40-45.  Here Daniel is dealing with the conquests of the "Antichrist" and
in verse 41 states that certain "lands" will escape the hand of the Antichrist.
These being Edom, Moab, and Ammon.  All three of these ancient nations currently
comprise the modern state of Jordan.  The city Bozrah in Mount Seir is located
in ancient Edom or southern Jordan.  Since this area will escape the dominion
of the Antichrist, it would be a logical place of refuge for fleeing Jews.
Furthermore, G_d has promised to provide for this remnant with food and water
just as was done in the wilderness of Sinai, and eventually save the nation of
Israel from destruction.

	Frankly, as I said, there are numerous passages that speak of Bozrah
and its significance to the regeneration of Israel, but time and space are
limited here.

	
								bill

>Nuweiba on the Sinai coast and from there catch a ferry to Aqaba.
    
    There's a ferry to Aqaba from Nuweiba now??  Ah, now Nuweiba brings
    back some memories.  
    
    --David

    Where are (were) Sela and Kedar (ref. Isaiah 42:1-13 I think...)?
    
    I have a special interest in the city of Sela and had heard that like
    Petra, Sela is a city built in red rock, but I have no idea.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Steve

Re: .16

>    Where are (were) Sela and Kedar (ref. Isaiah 42:1-13 I think...)?

Sela is a Moabite city mentioned in a few places (II Kings, Isaiah 16). 
Kedar was a son of Ishmael, mentioned in Genesis and I Cronicles. The
city of Kedar mentioned by Isaiah was also probably near Moab, since
he mentions them together, but I'm not sure.

Jem

    Belated thanks, Jem.  I haven't been in here since posting that
    question.
    
    Steve