Conference taveng::bagels

    Jem, do you wish to re-build the Temple?  It seems to be an implied
    conclusion of your note.
    
    I'm curious as to what you mean by "revitalized".
    
    		-John Bishop

Re:    < Note 963.1 by MINAR::BISHOP >
>                                   -< Revitalized? >-
>    
>    Jem, do you wish to re-build the Temple?  It seems to be an implied
>    conclusion of your note.
>    
>    I'm curious as to what you mean by "revitalized".
    
     In a word, we fervently pray for the arrival of the Messiah,
     who will rebuild the Temple and in so doing "revitalize"
     Jerusalem as the spiritual center of the Jewish people.
     (I guess that's more than a word :)
    
     Jem
    
    
    
    
       
    
    
    
    
    

    Thanks.
    
    How will you recognize the Messiah?  What else will you do in the
    meantime?
    
    This is begining to sound like a catechism! I am seriously interested
    in this, and not trying to mock or start an argument.  One of the
    puzzling aspects of Judaism for me is exactly this topic--given control
    of Jerusalem, why is there not more interest in re-building the Temple,
    or in at least starting to recover the rules and items and family
    lineages needed to run a Temple?
    
    I understand the "sacrifice a pigeon" aspect is embarassing in the
    context of the current world, but it's the Law.  To me as an outsider,
    the whole point of Judaism as it was re-invented at the time of the
    destruction of the Temple is the preservation of the body of worshippers
    and laws pending the re-creation of Israel and the re-establishment of
    the Temple.
    
    This would seem to me to rightfully be a major current controversy within
    Judaism, and yet it isn't--so I wonder why.
    
    		-John Bishop

    Mr. Bishop, 
    Have you read this entry?
    
    799  DNEAST::SPECTOR_DAVI 12-OCT-1989    43  Rebuilding of the Temple!
    
    Andrew
    

Re: .3

The note Andrew refers to treats most of your questions. I'm sure we'll
hear from you if it doesn't :)  .

It's rather interesting that only non-Jews have responded here...is this
issue not topical, or what?

Jem

    I've just read all of 799.*--much of it is argument about "Orthodox"
    and "Reform" movement, and the Temple topic is only partly talked
    about.  I've attempted to start it up again.
    
    			-John Bishop

	(If you want a response from a non-religious Jew :-), .0 attempts to
invalidate all secular Zionism. I find the drift disagreeable, counterproductive,
and inherently politicized. Political entities come and go, just as religious
traditions, moral precepts and written word's interpretations. It's just that
all these categories have different decomposition periods. It's fruitless to
juxtapose political vs. religious realities - they are quite orthogonal. When
religion drives politics they become intertwined, and both become "polluted".

DG

Re: .3

Well, I guess note 799 didn't satisfy you after all, so I'll try to
answer your questions. I respectfully request, however, that this
not become a Jewish-Christian polemic. If someone is interested in
that subject specifically, it can be handled off-line.

>    How will you recognize the Messiah?  What else will you do in the
>    meantime?

There is almost an entire chapter in the Talmud (Sanhedrin, chapter
"Chelek"), dedicated to Jewish eschatological questions, including
messianic aspirations. Many criteria are set forth there, and 
were codified by Maimonides in his magnum opus, _Mishne_Torah_, in 
the book _Hilchot_Melachim_. Belief in the arrival of the Messiah is
one of the Thirteen Principles of Faith formulated by Maimonides in
his commentary to _Chelek_. It is recited daily by many Jews as follows:

	I firmly believe in the coming of the Messiah; and although
	he may tarry, I daily wait for his coming.

At the heart of all messianic hopes, of course, are the pronouncements 
found throughout the Bible. Again, time and space do not suffice here to
quote all the verses, so I cite just a few. First the famous visions of 
Isaiah regarding the perfect state of peace:
	
	And the wolf shall dwell with the lamb...and the cow and the
	bear shall feed...They shall not hurt nor destroy...(11:6-9). 

	And they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears
	into pruning-hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, 
	neither shall they learn war any more (2:4).

Joy in Jerusalem:
	
	For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth...and I will
	rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people; and the voice of
	weeping shall be heard no more... (Isa. 65:17-19).

Unity of G-d proclaimed in the world:
	
	And the L-rd shall be King over all the earth; in that day shall
	the L-rd be one and His name one (Zech. 14:9).

Prophesy abounds:

	And it shall come to pass that I will pour out My spirit upon all
	flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy... (Joel 3:1,2).

How will we recognize him? First, he is a prophet approaching the greatness 
of Moses (Mai. Tesh. 9:2). But he is only confirmed as the Messiah when he 
"rebuilds the Temple on its proper site, and in the ingathering of the dis-
persed of Israel."

Maimonides stresses, however, that the longing for the Messiah has nothing 
to do with exercising "dominion over the world," being "exalted by the nations,"
or "eating, drinking and merriment. Their aspiration was that Israel be free
to devote itself to the Law...with no one to oppress or disturb it..." (Mai.
Melachim, 12:4).

This is a skeletal outline of a few of the anticipated messianic accomplish-
ments and signs for recognizing him.

> One of the
>    puzzling aspects of Judaism for me is exactly this topic--given control
>    of Jerusalem, why is there not more interest in re-building the Temple,
>    or in at least starting to recover the rules and items and family
>    lineages needed to run a Temple?

The answer to this question should be clear according to Maimonides - it
is the Messiah who will rebuild the Temple. There are other views, but 
this is the opinion held by the large majority of faithful Jews.

>    I understand the "sacrifice a pigeon" aspect is embarassing

Again according to Maimonides (Me'ila 8:8), the Temple service is in
the category of _chukim_, laws whose rationale is beyond ordinary 
human comprehension. However, he reaffirms that the rites will be
reestablished. 

_Chukim_ are not, however, "embarrassing." In one of the notes in 799.*,
the _chok_ par excellence, the "Red Heifer" is discussed in detail. BTW,
although the reason for these laws is not *apparent*, this does not mean
that no rationale *exists*; just that we are required to carry out G-d's
express will whether or not we comprehend the logic.

>To me as an outsider,
>    the whole point of Judaism as it was re-invented at the time of the
>    destruction of the Temple is the preservation of the body of worshippers
>    and laws pending the re-creation of Israel and the re-establishment of
>    the Temple.

"Re-invented" is a strong word, and I certainly would take strong issue with
it. But there's no doubt that the return to Zion has been a central Jewish
dream ever since the Dispersion.

Re: .7

I don't have time to answer your points in detail now, Dmitry, but I think
you know me well enough to realize that I'm not seeking to "invalidate all 
secular Zionism," at least if you've been following BAGELS consistently. 
All I'm saying is the this is not the sum-total of traditional Jewish 
aspirations, as positive a move as it is. Although "political entities"
may "come and go," this in no way implies any less of a commitment to
ensuring that it doesn't "go." Just that there are more sublime goals to
which Jews have always aspired than merely to be a "nation like all the
other nations."

Jem

	Jem, I apologize if .7 sounded overly combative - I guess I've spent too
much time in Soapbox#772 :-) I thought .0 was too broad and too harsh on the
lsee-than-sublime goal of political reincarnation of Jews as a nation. .0+.8 is
a perfectly agreeable stance, one can never reasonably decry spiritual revival
of a nation. I just don't think that religious spiritual revival is the only
valid way for the Jews, though it surely is important.

DG

    If only the Messiah can rebuild the Temple and and he (she?) won't be
    recognized as the Messiah until the Temple is rebuilt; don't these
    statements contradict each other?  If someone, somehow succeeded in
    rebuilding the Temple would this automatically confer Mesiahship on
    them?
    
    Sincerely
    
    Mark O'B

Re: .9

>	Jem, I apologize if .7 sounded overly combative - I guess I've spent too
>much time in Soapbox#772 :-)

'Nuff said, Dmitry :-)

>    If only the Messiah can rebuild the Temple and and he (she?) won't be
>    recognized as the Messiah until the Temple is rebuilt; don't these
>    statements contradict each other? 

Why?

> If someone, somehow succeeded in
>    rebuilding the Temple would this automatically confer Mesiahship on
>    them?

No, because of the other manifold criteria for such recognition, *some*
of which I outlined in .8 .

Jem

    The obstacles to rebuilding the Temple are substantial.  Some examples:
    
    1.  Nobody knows quite what it is supposed to look like.  Learned
        rabbis have their theories, but they are not sure.
    
    2.  The ark is missing.
    
    3.  There are a pair of mosques on the sight.
    
    If someone can find the ark, discern the plans, and build the Temple
    without starting World War III, I would seriously consider that they
    may be the Messiah.
    
    				Paul
    

    re.11
    
    I think that my confusion might come from a misreading of misread .8. 
    What does "confirmed as the Messiah" mean?  Accepted by all of the Jews
    both in Isreal and abroad?  Accepted by all mankind?
    
    
    re.12
    
    Was the ark carried off to Rome with the other Temple treasures when
    Jerusalem was sacked?
    
    BTW.
    The great menorah may still be in Jerusalem.  Thats where it was along
    with some other unspecified Temple treasures when The Byzantine
    emperor Justinian gave it back to the Jews.  Of course Jerusalem was
    then sacked by the Arabs so who knows maybe its in Damascus or Bagdahd.
    
    Interesting
    
    Mark O'B  

    re .8
    
    This is by no means a "Jewish-Christian polemic", at least on my
    part--I'm not a Christian.  Thanks for the responses, they are
    informative and illuminating.
    
    
    		-John Bishop

The second temple burned down. If the ark was wood, or gold-clad wood,
it might not have survived the fire.

Dave

.15>	The second temple burned down. If the ark was wood, or gold-clad wood,
.15>	it might not have survived the fire.

If it wasn't there, it would have.  I seem to remember (799.53 also mentions
this) that the ark was lost quite a while before the destruction of the Second
Temple.

Re: .13

>    I think that my confusion might come from a misreading of misread .8. 
>    What does "confirmed as the Messiah" mean?  Accepted by all of the Jews
>    both in Isreal and abroad?  Accepted by all mankind?

It means that until he fulfills all of the requirements mentioned in .8
(among others), any signs or wonders he performs are meaningless (vis.
Deut. 13:2-6). Maimonides, the rationalist par excellence, is of the
opinion that most aspects of the messianic era will be brought about
non-miraculously. 

I'm not sure what you mean by "accepted by all mankind." The Jewish
Messiah is not an end in himself, but merely a vessel for bringing
about an ideal, peaceful world, in which the One G-d is recognized
by one and all. Again I quote Zechariah (14:9):

	And the L-rd shall be King over all the earth; in that day shall
	the L-rd be one and His name one. 

It is a time when anyone who so desires, will be able to devote his time
wholly to G-d's service, unencumbered by mundane burdens. May we merit
his speedy arrival.

I hope that clears up some of the confusion.

Jem