Conference taveng::bagels

    Perhaps my question is related but perhaps not. 
     A few years ago my father used to watch a large congregation of
    Israeli Rabbi on late night TV, maybe in the summer. My father really
    admired  the leader of the group, an older gentlemen. I recall he was
    dressed in the Hassidic manner of Rabbi. 
     Is there such a thing as a 'Head Rabbi' of Israel?  
    Does anyone know what this was and who the Gentleman was?
    
    	-Andrew LeClaire

re .0:
    Reb is "mister," Rav is "rabbi."

re .1:
    There are two chief rabbis in Israel, one for the Sephardim and one
    for the Ashkenazim.  Neither one is Hassidic.

    but -- then why are some of the men, who were learned but not
    "smicha"-d, called 'Rav' while others, equally learned, are 'Reb'?
    
    still doesn't make any sense.

>I'd never heard of the Ladover Hasidim before, only the Lubovichers [sp].

Ladover is fictional.  Potok frequently makes up names to refer to people
and groups which are supposedly fictional, but which are well known to
the orthodox community.  The connection is often quite transparent.

Ladover is undoubtedly meant to be the Lubavitchers.  No other Hasidic
group or its rebbe meets that description.  I believe Asher Lev's artist
mentor in the first "Asher Lev" (the one the rebbe refers him to) is based
on a real artist named Lipshultz.  In "The Chosen" (or is it "The
Promise?") the kindly rebbe is clearly Harav Soloveitcheik, and the more
strict rebbe is also a fairly well-known personality at Yeshiva University,
but his name escapes me at the moment. The "Hirsch Theological Seminary"
referred to in these books is Y.U. 

I have to admit I enjoyed Potok's first three books (Chosen, Promise, and
Asher Lev) though I never could get through any of the others.  Seems to
me he's squeezed all the juice he can out of that theme (orthodox boy
facing secular America), and it gets a little tiresome after a while.  If
you like that theme, and want something a little more entertaining (but
not anti-semitic as so many books of that genre tend to be), you might 
try Herman Wouk's "Inside/Outside".

Sid

"Rav" is Hebrew for rabbi.

"Reb", linguistically, probably is just a Yiddishization (?) of "Rav"; as
pointed out previously, it may be used as an honorific in front of a man's
name.

"Rebbe", also Yiddish, is also from the same root.  It is used to designate a
rabbi (usually Hassidic) who serves as a leader of a religious community,
particularly one of significant size and/or importance (such as the
Lubavitcher).

As for why men without smicha would be called "Rav", I'm not sure.  Possibly
the title is used, even where not strictly correct, to show respect for the
person.  (Note that people holding high public office often are addressed as
"The Honorable", even where this is totally incorrect.)

Re .4:

> In "The Chosen" (or is it "The Promise?") the kindly rebbe is clearly 
> Harav Soloveitcheik, and the more strict rebbe is also a fairly well-known 
> personality at Yeshiva University, but his name escapes me at the moment.

I'm a little confused.  I read both novels, which together form one story.
The only rebbe I remember is Danny Saunders' father, the head of the Chasidic
group.  And he is portrayed (at least in "The Chosen") as being quite
extreme in his positions, banning contact with all those supporting the 
State of Israel [at the time of its establishment].  Who is "kindly" and
who is "strict" in the novels?

>I'm a little confused.  I read both novels, which together form one story.
>The only rebbe I remember is Danny Saunders' father, the head of the Chasidic
>group.

Sorry for the confusion.  In addition to the definitions provided in
previous notes, the term "rebbe" is often used by a yeshiva student to
refer to his teacher.  As in "My rebbe gets angry if we're late for class".
Or, "who is your rebbe?".  So I should have said "teacher".

Now that I give the matter some thought, I believe the "kindly" one 
was called Rav Gershonson, and the stricter one was called Rav Kalman (the
European refugee whose articles attacked Reuven's father).

Does that help?

Sid

I believe that Sid is referring to the 2 rabbis teaching at the yeshiva.
I also think the names are right, though I am not sure.

Gav

    It's been a while since I read the Chosen/Promise books, and I forget
    the name Potok gave to the character, but the "liberal" seems based on
    Mordecai Kaplan and his institution is really JTS.
    
    						Aaron

re .9:
>                                              the "liberal" seems based on
>    Mordecai Kaplan and his institution is really JTS.

    Wasn't Kaplan the founder of reconstructionism?  JTS is the conservative
    seminary.  Am I missing something?

> the "liberal" seems based on Mordecai Kaplan 
> and his institution is really JTS.

No, I'm pretty sure it's Y.U.   Though JTS certainly used to be more
traditional than it is now, I don't think it ever served the type
of characters (both rabbis and students) who are described in the book.
Also the name (Hirsch - one of the "founders [if that word is appropriate]
of modern orthodoxy) would indicate that it was an orthodox institutuion.

The kind of controversy which took place in the school in the book 
(i.e., the use of "variant texts" to understand difficult passages in 
the Talmud) is an intra-Orthodox argument.  Note that "variant" refers to
parts of the Talmud, not the Torah.  I won't get into it here, since I
am far from an expert on the subject, but the issue is over how much
liberty can be taken with the text of the Talmud (which everyone agrees
was written by man).  Can we resolve difficult arguments in the Talmud
and its commentaries by positing that different Rabbis who said different
things were looking at different variations of the same text?  Or is that
an offense to the holiness of the text which we use?  It's still a "hot
issue" within the millimeter on the Jewish observance continuum which
modern orthodoxy represents.

By the way, one of the things which annoyed me about the movie version of
The Chosen was that they found this issue to be too subtle for the general
public, so they changed it to a Conservative/Orthodox conflict.  In the 
movie, Reuven's father explains that "Danny's father believes the Torah was
written by God.  I believe it was written by man and inspired by God".
This is NOT what the book was about.

In "The Promise", there is another character named Abraham Gordon, who 
I believe does represent Mordecai Kaplan.  But there it is clear that he
is much further out in "left" field.  His books are banned, and he himself
is shunned by most of the religious Jews.

Whew, this is getting ridiculous.  Does it sound like I've done my doctorate
on Potok's novels?  I guess I just find the whole game of "Guess who this
is supposed to be?" sort of fun.  It's a little bit like Jewish geography.

Sid

Gerald,

The reference to Mordecai Kaplan and JTS is correct.  He started out associated
with the JTS and Conservative Judaism.  Later he (or the adherents of his
philosophy) started the Reconstructionist movement.

Sid,

I believe that the "liberal" that Aaron was refering to was Abraham Gordon.
As far as I could tell his character seemed to represent Mordecai Kaplan.

I also agree that the movie (as is usual with movies) did not express the same
point as the book.

Gavriel

Re .7:

Yes, this does clear it up.  The two "rebbes" were the two instructors
from _The Promise_.  I remembered Rav Gershenson more as as a moderate faculty
member than a "kindly" figure.  It is somewhat a surprise to me that he would
be modeled on Rav Soloveitchik, because the Rav G. character was sympathetic
to liberal interpretations while I have personally heard Rav S. denounce
the Conservative movement as being something other than true Judaism.

    RE: .10,.12
    
    As Gav said, Kaplan proposed the ideas behind Reconstructionism while a
    professor at the JTS.  He tried very hard to avoid splitting off into
    YAM (Yet Another Movement), but after he retired, the powers-that-be at
    the Seminary made it pretty clear that they would not appoint another
    Reconstructionist to the faculty, and a split did occur.

    RE: .11,.12

    Yup, Abraham Gordon. I guess I had a memory drop-out.  Sorry for being
    unclear.  Thanks again Gav.
    
    						Aaron