Conference taveng::bagels

It's only a problem if the computer went through a halachic conversion (it was
obviously not born to a Jewish mother) and remains shomer Shabbat.

Here comes Purim   8^{).
Gav

>    I wouldn't do it.

  On the off chance that that wasn't a joke.....There are zero 
  halachic problems with this.

>  On the off chance that that wasn't a joke.....There are zero 
>  halachic problems with this.

In that case, this is quite possibly the first thing in the universe
for which this is true.

Martin.

   It has been pointed out to me that perhaps my previous reply 
   should be rephrased from:

>  On the off chance that that wasn't a joke.....There are zero 
>  halachic problems with this.

to:

   On the off chance that that wasn't a joke.....There are zero 
   halachic problems with this for those of you not working in 
   the same timezone as TAVENG.

.5>   On the off chance that that wasn't a joke.....There are zero 
.5>   halachic problems with this for those of you not working in 
.5>   the same timezone as TAVENG.

Actually, it doesn't matter whether or not you and TAVENG share the same
time zone, just whether or not it's Shabbat in yours.

And, of course, this only applies to Jews; there are no halachic problems
with Sultan entering notes on any day of the week that he chooses.  Then
again, if he were to use the opportunity to encourage us to eat ham and
cheese sandwiches, would the moderators of this conference bear any
responsibility?  How about TAVENG's system manager?  The field service engineer
who maintains the system?  The janitorial staff that cleans the room where
it is kept?

Now, as for issue of "feeding" electricity into TAVENG on a fast day ...

>>                           -< Only 4 days to Purim. >-

And that, Eric, depends on whether you are in Herzlia where Purim 
starts on Saturday night, or Jerusalem where Purim starts Sunday 
night.

Eric, Ham never but Cheese happens to be halal.

-Sultan

    What if the system manglers just declare one of the cluster members to
    be the "Shabbesgoj" :-?
    
    Suggestingly yours,
    
    Chris

    A few years ago I was working part-time in the Harvard University
    Science Center and taking Extension courses there.
     Some , quite a few, students from the College who worked with me
    practiced Orthodox Judaism. One of our meetings was held on a Saturday,
    and a student asked me to write his name on the attendence sheet.
     I asked why, he replied he was not allowed to write his name on the
    Sabbath. 
     I thought the same Halachic law that prohibited him from writing in
    his name would also apply to logging into a computer, even if actually
    typing were allowed ( I don't think this person would type , I may be
    wrong ) because a password constitutes a prima-facia name.
    
    Therefor I thought it was not allowed to use Bagels on the Sabbath.
    
    Perhaps you could explain what is going on here!
    
    Andrew

>    A few years ago I was working part-time in the Harvard University
>    Science Center and taking Extension courses there.
>     Some , quite a few, students from the College who worked with me
>    practiced Orthodox Judaism. One of our meetings was held on a Saturday,
>    and a student asked me to write his name on the attendence sheet.

	Not only is he not allowed to write, he's not really allowed to ask 
	you to write, even if you're non-Jewish.  His asking you to write
	his name is considered as if he wrote it, in halacha.

>     I asked why, he replied he was not allowed to write his name on the
>    Sabbath. 
>     I thought the same Halachic law that prohibited him from writing in
>    his name would also apply to logging into a computer, even if actually
>    typing were allowed ( I don't think this person would type , I may be
>    wrong ) because a password constitutes a prima-facia name.

	That's correct.  You cannot log into a computer, either.  (He
	should not have even been at such a meeting, but that's another
	reply...)

	It's not only logging into the computer.  Typing any character
	on the keyboard would be forbidden.  Logging in by "voice 
	recognition" without typing anything at all would also be forbidden.

	To perhaps start a rat-hole, what the Shabbat is really about
	is getting oneself out of the "creative" everyday world.  There-
	fore, even though it is probably "letter-of-the-law" OK for the guy
	to have been at the meeting, it certainly wasn't "Shabbesdik".
	Following this, for example:  you could use a clock-radio to get
	up, listening to the news on Shabbat morning, assuming it shuts
	itself off.  But that's not what Shabbat is really for...
    
>    Therefor I thought it was not allowed to use Bagels on the Sabbath.
>    Perhaps you could explain what is going on here!
    
	It isn't allowed.

	What matters is what YOU'RE doing on the Sabbath, in your local
	time.  Ex: If you're in the US, you can write to Bagels at 2:30pm local
	time Friday, while it is already Shabbat in Israel. From your place, 
	in USA, you are using a mechanical servant at a time which is not 
	Shabbat (for you).

	Similarly, on Motzoi Shabbat here in Israel, say 8pm, I could log
	into a computer in the US (where it _is_ still Shabbat).  Again,
	that's "my" using a mechanical servant at a time which is not
	Shabbat (for me).

	One thing which _is_ prohibited is: for me to use the computer
	(any computer, anywhere), when it is Shabbat for me.

don feinberg

    Don,

    A real life story/coincidence .....

    The first time I was here here in MA as a DIGITAL employee, I remember
    writing a status report to my boss on Friday afternoon in Westboro'. 

    After mailing it, I remembered that it was already Shabbat in Israel.
    When I spoke to THE boss the following Sunday, he told me that TAVENG had
    a serious crash on Friday afternoon. ( I think a few disk heads went)  

    Coincidence or just plain hysteria :-) :-)

    							..... Monty

now that purim is past, let's discuss a related question:

i am sitting here in NY on friday P.M. and there is a computerized coffee 
machine (stove, whatever) hooked up to TAVENG:: in the holy land.

by my running a program here, i set the coffee machine brewing

NOW, is that coffee considered cooked on shabat??

(this is what i meant by my original question)

(i am not looking for a psak, just for an interesting debate, le'shma)

re .13:

That doesn't seem to differ from putting a coffee machine on a shabbos clock.
You can't do it.

According to my understanding, it is OK for non-Jews to do creative work
whenever they wish. This would include reading and writing BAGELS on a Saturday.

Dave

>According to my understanding, it is OK for non-Jews to do creative work
>whenever they wish. This would include reading and writing BAGELS on a Saturday.

	Yes, certainly -- but not at the behest of a Jew.

	Example: Non-Jews can fix cars on Saturday.  But a Jew cannot bring 
	his car to the (non-Jewish) garage to be worked on, if there is
	a high probability/certainty that the car will be worked on 
	during Shabbat.

	Similarly, even if you have a "Shabbas Goy" in a shul, you really
	cannot ask him directly (on Shabbat) to "shut off the lights", or 
	to "turn up the air-conditioning", for example.

don

    Re. -1:
    
>	Similarly, even if you have a "Shabbas Goy" in a shul, you really
>	cannot ask him directly (on Shabbat) to "shut off the lights", or 
>	to "turn up the air-conditioning", for example.

    
    This is not really true. There is a very well known oppinion of the
    "Baal Ha'eetur" which is brought down by the Tosafot which explicitly
    permits "Amira L'Akum" (explicit request from a Goy) for a "Tsorech
    Gadol" (for a very important reason). Almost all the Poskim over the
    generations have accepted this view and have deemed any "public need"
    as coming under this category.
    
    In fact I once heard Rabbi Soloveitchik state that based on this "Baal
    Ha'eetur" it WOULD be permissible for a shul to hire a bus and a goyish
    driver to go around and pick up people, who could not otherwise get to
    Shul, on Shabbat and bring/return them to/from shul. The only reason
    that he did not want to Paskin this "l'maaseh" was because he feared
    that the coservative Rabbis would misinterperet this Psak and abuse it,
    thus coming under the category of "sh'at hashmad" when even tying one's
    shoe becomes "Asur" if this could be misconstued as being against the
    Halacha.
    
    It is interesting to note that if one takes a look in Rabbi Nuwerth's
    "Shmirat Shabbat K'Hilchaso", it appears that that the leading
    authorities in Israel (Rabbi S.Z. Auerbach and Rabbi S. Elyashiv) are
    much more lenient with regard to "Amira L'Akum" than are the leading
    authorities (Rabbi Feinstein and Rabbi Soloveitchik) in America. 
    
    Cb.

	RE: .-1

>                       -< Not according to Tosafot .... >-


	I'll accept that.  I learned what I wrote from Rabbi Hochberg, 
	who was a student of Rabbi Soloveitchik. I assumed (and I believe
	I heard, though I'm not sure now) that it was brought down as
	R' Soloveitchik's opinion.

	Sigh.

don

Thanks for all the detailed responses. I really enjoyed reading them. But the
point I was trying to make was that non-Jews who follow Bagels do not need to
be concerned about giving offense by creating new entries on a Saturday.

Dave

Re: .13

>> I am sitting here in NY on friday P.M. and there is a computerized
>> coffee maker hooked up to TAVENG:: in the holy land.  By my running
>> a program here, I set the coffee machine brewing.  Now, is that coffee 
>> considered brewed on Shabbat?

Now *that* is a really interesting question!  The response in .14 would
seem to be correct; it is the same as putting a coffee machine on a
Shabbat clock, which wouldn't be allowed.  But that's because your example 
uses a coffee machine (which involves prohibitions other than just using
the electricity to turn it on).  What about if you were using your computer
in NYC to turn on a hot pot--would someone in Israel be able to drink the
hot water?

On the one hand, the work is being done by someone who is not bound by 
Shabbat at the time (It's Friday afternoon).  On the other hand, for the person
in Israel, the work has been done during Shabbat.  If there's a makloket
(disagreement) about whether it's permissible to bring your car into a shop
where a non-Jew *might* work on it during Shabbat (your Shabbat, not his),
it would seem that the point is that whether or not the prohibition applies
to the person *doing* the work, it is not clearcut as to whether it is possible
for the work to be done for you... 

And if that's a problem, then it would follow that logging into BAGELS on
Friday afternoon in NY is, by extension, a problem--because people in Israel
reading your note on Sunday will be benefitting from work that has been done
on Shabbat.  :~)

(The more correct analogy, of course, is the question as to whether Israelis
--who observe only one of the two days of holidays required by Diasporan
Jews--are able, in the U.S., to "do" for American Jews observing two days.
Most people, I suspect, would argue that it's no problem, as long as marit
ayin is not involved.)

re .17:

>> "Shmirat Shabbat K'Hilchaso" ????

c'mon chaim!! you israeli types should know better!!

it is either "shmirat shabbat k'hilchato" (or is it k'hilchatah? shabbat is a
feminine (nekava) word) or "shmiras shabbos k'hilchaso"

sorry, but mixing havarot (pronounciations, for the uninitiated)
drives me up the wall!

now, back to the topic:

to put it briefly, does my remote controlled coffee pot fall into the
category of 'milechet shabbat' and thus forbidden (to me or to anyone else)
to drink?

or does the fact that when i started it cooking it wasn't shabbat for ME make 
any difference?

a question that might have bearing on this:

if i own chametz (leavened bread) in israel, where pesach starts a few hours 
before it does here, by when do i have to sell it?  before pesach starts here??
or before it starts in israel?

chag kasher v'shameach!!!

>a question that might have bearing on this:
>
>if i own chametz (leavened bread) in israel, where pesach starts a few hours 
>before it does here, by when do i have to sell it?  before pesach starts here??
>or before it starts in israel?

	I had just exactly this question last Pesach.  Two winters ago, I had 
	stored several boxes of food in Israel (in someone's machsan), 
	anticipating our return here in July last year.

	So, the issue came up.  I asked for a psak on it. The answer was
	that: it is not related to the issue of "melacha at a distance"
	(e. g., the computer controlled coffee-pot), but rather, it is an
	issue of my personal ownership of the chametz, wherever it may
	happen to be.

	The posek drew no difference between chametz crumbs in the basement	
	of my house in the US and those in the machsan in Israel.
	End of story:  I could sell this chametz along with my "US"
	chametz. 

	(When selling the chametz, this Rav insists on the address(es)
	where the chametz could be located, i. e., my house, my office,
	etc.  So, I also gave the address of the machsan in Israel.)

don feinberg