Conference taveng::bagels

Young people are frequently impressionable and given to impulsive 
actions - something similar to what you describe happened with a couple
of my acquaintances in college (in the U.S., if that made a difference).  
I haven't heard from them in years, but at least then, they were doing fine.

Regarding the chef - gut feeling says your right, but intellectually 
it sounds from your note as if you haven't met the man and are making a 
decision based on his being a chef and lacking a college education.  
Perhaps they would be partners in this restaurant - she could learn to be 
a chef, or to run a restaurant, or whatever, both of which are marketable 
skills (no idea what qualifications are necessary for either).  Perhaps not.  
But it sounds like the typical "she's got to marry a brain surgeon" schtick
I hear from the parents of many of my friends.

There are two problems - 
	1. You're here, she's there.

	2. She sounds independent (not necessarily bad).  You have to 
	   let her make her own decisions about her life.  If she makes
	   a mistake she will eventually figure it out (I hope).  
	   Advise, but don't threaten, and be careful how you give the 
	   advice because she may view your advice as interference 
	   (I viewed my most of my parents' advice that way at 19/20 - 
	   it's amazing how much my parents have learned in the last 5 years).  
                                            
As for the yeshiva - maybe it's not an orthodox one?  They will probably
to indocrinate her, and how well they do depends on her (sounds like
they've already gotten part way home, but once again that's hard
to tell from here).  She may feel the need for structure (consciously
or unconsciously) and the orthodoxy of any religion provides that.
Also, I understand some of the Yeshiva's give a university level degree,
so in studying at a yeshiva she may get the credentials to teach at
a Jewish school here or there.  So if she's dead set on being a yeshiva
girl, at least try to steer her in that direction.  

Sorry there isn't any perfect cure or wonderful advice to give...

Matt

    Hi again,
    
    I'm so sorry to hear about your concern and disappointment.  I hope
    your daughter is making a good move for herself and not something
    precipitous she will regret; or just as bad, never know what she is
    missing by closing our other options for education and experience.
    
    When I visited a baal tshuvaa yeshiva in Jerusalem, I experienced some
    pressure to stay, drop all previous ties, and marry in.  But I was in
    my late twenties, had seen a lot of life, and had a good job to return
    to in the US, as well as a pretty clear sense of self.
    
    What concerned me was the attempt by one man to drive a wedge between
    me and my family, subtly, by discrediting American Judaism and the Jews
    who remain here.  When I said, "If I marry a yeshiva student and start
    having babies, what will we live on?" He told me to cable my folks for
    money.  I think he saw them as cash cows.  He begged me not to return
    to the US.
    
    Hopefully your daughter is in a better situation.  Though it costs lots
    of $$$, might you consider going there now to check things out?  Then
    if you believe she is making a mistake, your presence may dissuade her. 
    If you believe it is not a mistake, you can go home reassured.  IF she
    is in a fantasy world, your presence will bring a strong dose of
    reality with it.  Though expensive and time consuming, the trip may be
    your last chance to influence her.  Maybe she could be persuaded to
    continue her university training and have a long engagement, giving her
    time to think it over carefully.

Re: .2

You allege that you were pressured into "dropping all previous ties." 
Such charges were made previously (note 728), and were subsequently
withdrawn for, shall we say, lack of evidence (notice the missing
notes there). Although I have no reason to question that someone
walking into such an institution (who is likely to be there because
of some curiosity about Judaism) would be encouraged to spend some
time studying his/her roots, since that is the very raison d'etre
of these academies. However, pressure to "drop all previous ties"
is a phenomenon which I have never heard of except from those with
a slanderous agenda. Indeed, I fail to even see the logic in the
allegation, in light of the fifth commandment ("Honor thy father and
thy mother..."). How could the "pressurers' justify their own 
hypocrisy in ignoring a cardinal precept?

Jem

    Jem,
    
    You claim that only one with a slanderous agenda could make such
    claims.  You question how a "pressurer" could justify violating our
    most basic and cherished beliefs.  So therefore, you imply I am
    fabricating this.
    
    While all oral communication is subject to misinterpretation, from my
    own admittedly subjective point of view, I heard what I heard.
    
    I am horrified at your implication that I intend slander.  Perhaps I
    would have sent my communique privately to the "worried mother", but I
    made it public because I do not believe that the point I made is the
    sort of thing useful to anti-Semites.  It is far more likely to cause
    upset to some of our own, as I see it did.
    
    I put a high value on truth.  I calls 'em as I sees 'em.  Granted, I
    may have misinterpreted what I heard.  But I believe it is of value to
    be honest, and may provide a balancing point of view.
    
    I know you will probably want to make a lengthy reply to this, point by
    point, as you are free to do.  I will tell you I do not want to get
    into a NOTES debate on this.  If the moderator decides my earlier
    statement does not belong here, I urge him/her to remove it and end the
    matter.
    

    When Sun Myung Moon does it, we yell "Cults!"
    
    When the Children of God do it, we yell "Cults!"
    
    When some follower of Schneerson or somebody else of his ilk does it,
    we get a little bit concerned too, but jem insists that we're obviously
    slandering him/them and must be closet Anti-Semites or something to see
    it for what it is.
    
    If it were my daughter, I'd be very worried!

    I'd like to try to bring the heat level down a little.

    To the base noter:  I understand your concern.  It can be difficult
    for non-traditional Jewish parents to understand the attraction of
    a traditional Jewish lifestyle on children raised in a secular
    environment.  Suffice it to say that there are plenty of sophisticated,
    educated, *happy* people living this way, both FFB's (frum from birth)
    and BT's (baalei tshuva).  I know of a rabbi in Detroit who holds
    seminars for parents of baalei tshuva who would like to understand
    their children's decision and lifestyle.  Unfortunately, I don't
    know of any similar seminars in the Boston area.

    Of course, it's possible to mess up your life by marrying the wrong
    person, but a change of lifestyle followed by a short engagement
    doesn't necessarily spell disaster.  My wife and I were married
    three months after we met.  She had become a baalat tshuva a couple
    of years earlier, and had attended a BT seminary in Israel (possibly
    the same one your daughter is at).  We're happy.

    To Jem:  Was the reply here from the same person who made the unfounded
    allegations concerning a third party?  I would be much more careful
    in disputing first person claims than third person ones.  BT yeshivas/
    seminaries are not for everyone, unfortunately.  There's a real lack
    of BT seminaries for women with a college background and real world
    experience.  This is not to say that there's something inherently
    illogical or unsophisticated about traditional Judaism.

    Re .5:  Cults use certain "brainwashing" techniques such as sleep
    deprivation, "love bombing," etc.  I challenge you to document the
    use of these techniques by any legitimate Jewish group.

Re: .4

>    I put a high value on truth.  I calls 'em as I sees 'em.  Granted, I
>    may have misinterpreted what I heard.  But I believe it is of value to
>    be honest, and may provide a balancing point of view.

I also put a high value on truth. If such an event occured, it certainly
should be exposed. For this very reason, I ask you to provide the details
of the situation (by email): i.e. the institution, the approximate dates,
and the individuals involved, and exactly what was said. If these pieces
of information cannot be recalled, perhaps your memory of the entire 
situation could be questioned. You seem to be hedging on your original
accusations already, by repeating twice that you may have "misinterpreted" 
what you heard. 

>    When some follower of Schneerson or somebody else of his ilk does it,

My question is, is "it" done (again "it" refers to the specific charge
made in .3 about "dropping all previous ties"), or is it imagination?

>and must be closet Anti-Semites

Hmmm. I've re-read my note and see nothing about anti-Semitism. I've
rarely met Jews who were anti-Semitic, and I don't see the author of
.2 as an exception. 

Jem

    Please don't use my situation to begin railing at one another in
    the name of Judaism.  There are righteous individuals everywhere
    in every version of every religion and I myself have experience
    d and observed prejudice under many banners.  Followers of Schneerson
    are wonderful (I stayed with the family depicted in the bood "Holy
    Days" and the patriarch there just doesn't criticize anyone, Jews
    or Gentiles and I also was present in a large gathering there where
    my husband was almost struck because he suggested that Christ was
    practicing Judaism in one of his sermons)...Pure teaching and living
    is never to be criticized.   Overzealousness and blind thinking
    is present everywhere. 
    I am familiar with the warmth of the extended family and shtetl
    in Orthodox Judaism.  I worry about the form of magical thinking
    wherein my daughter quoted a teaching about idol-worship:  a neighbor
    of ours attended a Temple named Beth Am (children of The People?)
    and because the name idolized People and Not G-d they were punished.
    Idol-worship results in the death of one's children.  This neighbor's
    daughter was killed in an automobile accident. She took it mean
    that they were punished.  .......Idol worship, be it materialism
    or false values, lead to a warped life and a warped value system,
    and if values be passed on to one's children, the death of their
    value system and contributions to meaningful life.  That's what
    I believe to be logical.  The values of Judaism are meaningful,
    but this magical thinking is alarming.  
    
    Without the critical thinking that  a college education delivers,
    I'm afraid that magical thinking always leads to a burst bubble
    and that is more dangerous than anything.
    
    Far from home and lonely, the warmth of Shabbos with a loving family
    is wonderful...American secular Judaism has a hard time competing
    with this.  I don't have the money to go
    there nor forcefulness to verbally resist such a tidal wave. 
    I just need to write a good letter that won't hurt her and give
    her some standards to measure this quick decision....Even the Rabbis
    there have told her and her boyfriend to slow down.  He is a product
    of a divorce and is looking for values himself.  I hope this is
    not the kind of relationship described in a new book called
    "Lovingkindness" which describes a young marriage in this kind of
    situation.
    
    Advice on letter-writing would be helpful...
    
    worried mother
    RR

    Re .8:
    
    From the For What It's Worth Department......
    
    I agree with you 100%.....money and material wealth can never replace
    love of G_d or caring for your family and your neighbor. Many have hoped
    they might but in vain I'm afraid. I like what Ecclesiastes 12 has
    to say about how fleeting life really is.
    
    Our children are still young but my wife and I often talk about how
    we'll handle their choice of future spouses, especially since my
    in-laws never approved of their daughter's choice of a spouse....but
    that's another story! :-) In any event, we've come to the conclusion
    that eventually they must make up their own minds - we can offer
    encouragement and moral support (and a shoulder to cry on) but
    ultimately it's up to them. Hopefully, we've raised them with a sense
    of values that will allow them to make reasonably good decisions
    during their lives.
    
    As far as the subject of "idol worship" is concerned, I can agree
    (as I stated above) that many people sometimes get their priorities
    mixed up and move G_d down the list, rather than up. But "Children
    of the People" signifies (to me anyway) that the members of that
    congregation want to recognize that they are descendants of the
    people chosen by G_d over all others to keep and preserve His Laws.
    If they worshipped Moses rather than G_d or individuals (Aaron,
    for example) were with Moses at Mt. Sinai, then I might be worried.
    Since that's inconceivable (again, to me anyway), I'm not sure how
    someone could come to believe a name like Beth Am is evidence of
    "idol worship" or that G_d willed that someone should die in an
    accident because they attended Beth Am Syunagogue. That just doesn't
    make sense to me.
    
    I hope that helps some....feel free to criticize (anyone) who might
    disagree....I have been known to err.
    
    Mark

    RR,
    
    Too bad the cost of the trip is out of reach.  But I wouldn't let a
    lack of self-confidence in your persuasive abilities stand in your way. 
    Your love and caring and the most persuasive tools you've got.
    
    If you can only write - why not send a copy of these notes and replies
    and the previous ones?  It shows various points-of-view of personally
    disinterested parties.  It may introduce some fresh air.
    
    How about a letter from someone in the US (eg Rabbi, old friend, or
    close relative such as sister or aunt) who can also caution her to take
    her time and perhaps even return to college for awhile while she thinks
    it over?  Is there anyone you know in Israel who can speak to her in
    person?
    
    Could she and the prospective bridegroom visit you in the US prior to
    the marriage?  The promise of a family engagement party may be
    alluring.  If she races into a fast wedding, far from friends and
    family, she is missing the hoopla and fun of pre-wedding events, and
    depriving herself of the involvement of family d friends.
    
    Where are the groom's parents?  Can you correspond with them?
    
    Just some ideas . . .
    
    Good luck sincere, from one who waited a LONG time to marry (in myher
    family sagogue by a rabbi who knew meher all her life, with two showers and
    two auf rufs, to WONDERFUL guy) and is glad she did, since it would not
    have been right with anyone she previously dated, and she never had to
    endure a divorce that might have been the result of a rash decision. 
    WITH a ketubah on the wall, AND her parents' glad suppor  Absolutely
    the best way to go, and worth the wait.
    

    .9 MARK ,you have the idea about my sense of misinterpretation of
    the punishment of idol-worship.  People's children don't die because
    they attend a synagogue named Beth Am.
    
    .10 Nice idea ....but... his parents' are divorced and he won't
    eat in my house.   I suppose at some point I'll see them together,
    but I have to be careful not to protest too much or I'll strengthen
    their resolve.  the most encouraging thing I've heard is that the
    rabbis there advised them to slow down.
    
    
    I don't want to put a damper on true love or a chance for happiness,
    I just don't want my daughter barefoot and pregnant all her life.
    
    rr