Conference taveng::bagels

    Jem,
    
>> in my opinion, are rumors that Israel itself is curtailing Soviet-Jewish
>> immigration. Will someone please tell me it isn't so?!
    
    One hears so many rumours ...... one can never be sure which rumour a
    person is talking about :-) :-)
    
    Do you mind sharing it with us. As far as is reported, no effort has
    been made to curtail immigration in any way. Quite the opposite in
    fact.
    
    								... Monty
    

Re: .1

>    One hears so many rumours ...... one can never be sure which rumour a
>    person is talking about :-) :-)
>    
>   Do you mind sharing it with us.

I read an article by Glenn Richter, who claimed that the "invitations" from
Israel are no longer automatic. Also, some Soviet Jews who I speak to here
feel that this is true based on their conversations with relatives
in the USSR.


Jem

There recently has been a very rapid increase in the number of Jews leaving
the Soviet Union, and some of the previously existing mechanisms for handling
olim have not been able to keep up with the rush.  (May all of our problems
result from increases in aliyah!)  This has caused some new bottlenecks,
but that's certainly not official policy.  (The authorities here in Israel
manage very well at being inefficient, even when they don't try.)


.2> I read an article by Glenn Richter, who claimed that the "invitations" from
.2> Israel are no longer automatic. Also, some Soviet Jews who I speak to here
.2> feel that this is true based on their conversations with relatives
.2> in the USSR.


What I remember reading, a few months ago, is that the number of requests
for invitations is so great that those responsible for issuing them have
been falling behind.  It's quite reasonable that Jews still in the USSR
would suspect that there's some purpose behind this.


Another example is that there aren't enough flights from Eastern Europe
to accomodate all the Jews who already have permission to leave, and the
Soviets still haven't approved direct flights from Moscow to Israel.  (It's
not certain whether the delay is political or bureaucratic, though the former
is suspected.)

Re: .3

>What I remember reading, a few months ago, is that the number of requests
>for invitations is so great that those responsible for issuing them have
>been falling behind.  

I understand that there is a major problem finding work for the new olim.
Perhaps two birds can be killed with one stone - give them jobs as visa
processors (maybe even let them process their *own* visas while still in
the USSR! :) .  

On another serious note, the rumors of pogroms are growing louder by the
day. Can we afford to treat it as a bluff, knowing Russian history? If
there was ever an occasion to rise to, this is it!

Jem

    It appears that it now takes 8 months to get Israeli visa/invitation
    in the SU. It used to be a matter of weeks in the past.
    
    The anti-semitism is on the rise in the SU. Partly due to poor economy
    (it's the Jews' fault, you know), and partly due to glasnost (it is now
    OK to speak one's mind, including one's anti-semitic mind). And it will
    get worse. Emmigration is increasing.
    
    My pet peeve is that there are still Soviet Jews who insist on getting
    tourist visas and visiting USA as tourists before deciding to emigrate.
    What arrogance and stupidity. Makes me think of 1930's (it can't happen
    here).
    
    Alex

.8>    My pet peeve is that there are still Soviet Jews who insist on getting
.8>    tourist visas and visiting USA as tourists before deciding to emigrate.
.8>    What arrogance and stupidity. Makes me think of 1930's (it can't happen
.8>    here).

    	I'm not sure where there is "arrogance and stupidity" in this. 
    Emigrating from a country, especially one that made a policy of keeping
    its citizens ignorant of what was outside, is not an easy decision.  In
    addition, many people are older and have legitimate attachments and
    hesitations.  My wife has relatives still in Kiev, and one of them
    visited recently, precisely to judge whether he really wanted to
    emigrate.

    	Please clarify what you are objecting to in the paragraph quoted
    above.

    	*My* pet peeve is a country like the USA persisting in restrictions
    on immigration, at a golden moment like this.

    		David

    re: .5
    
    Although I could agree with you in one respect, I can't in total. 
    One's attachment to place can be as strong as attachment to a people. 
    I had a good friend in Israel who constantly lamented over his home
    city of Riga.
    
    If anti-semitic pogroms were to break out in Boston, how fast would you
    emigrate, and where would you emigrate to?
    
    --David

    re .6
    
    This is what German Jews said when the writing was on the wall.
    I think I said it very clearly in .5
    
    re .7
   > If anti-semitic pogroms were to break out in Boston, how fast would you
   > emigrate, and where would you emigrate to?
    
    Is this a rhetorical question? What I would do is not an issue here.
    SU is a thinly veiled anti-semitic country that is about to experience
    a terrible anti-semitic outbreak. Many Soviet Jews have realized this
    and are leaving by the thousands regardless of how rosy their life be.
    These refugees know that there is nothing to loose.  Yet there are still 
    those who I described in .5 as "stupid and arrogant".
    
    Alex

    re.5: Not, it'll never be the Jews fault, in the USSR. It's the
    "Cosmopolitans" who are at fault. Never mind they're 100% Jewish.
    
    Trickingly yours,
    
    Chris

 >   re.5: Not, it'll never be the Jews fault, in the USSR. It's the
 >   "Cosmopolitans" who are at fault. Never mind they're 100% Jewish.
    
    Chris, while I realize you are showing off your knowledge of the
    subject :-), the "cosmopolitan" euphemism is no longer necessary
    in these days of glasnost.
    
    Alex
    

    Funny, that, 'coz' it starts showing up in some arguments brought
    forward by some far right wingers in Europe. Sure enough I got one by
    his private parts when I "naively" intervened, asking him what's wrong
    with cosmopolitans, since I am one: three languages, foreign (French)
    wife, having lived in many countries, adopting ideas from here and
    there, etc...
    
    I'll never forget that face.
    
    Cosmopolitanly yours,
    
    Chris

    5000 Jews have settled down in Vienna, during the last 2 (?) years.
    Source: Austrian SW services.
    
    Does tell me something about USSR emigration and USA imposing quotas.
    
    Reportingly yours,
    
    Chris

 re.: .9    >   re.5: Not, it'll never be the Jews fault, in the USSR. It's the
            >   "Cosmopolitans" who are at fault. Never mind they're 100% Jewish.
     
    Well, "they" also used (using?) this name for the best of "Russian"(soviet) 
    INTELIGENCIA, but never mind there was a joke anyway:              
    
    	 Two people talking:
    
    	  1-st: 	Is he a JEW?
          2-d : 	No he is just an intelegent man.
    CEMEH.

    Seen on an announcement blackboard in Harvard:
    
    "Why are students attracted by leftish ideas?" Prof. soandso speaking
    about....
    
    Handwritten underneath:
    
    "'Coz we're smart!".
    
    That was it for that speech.
    
    Neutrally yours,
    
    Chris

    
    Yesterday's NYT carried a story about Sweden's 150 recent Soviet
    Jewish emigres. Commenting on why they chosw Sweden, "some said
    they could get tourist visas to Sweden in 2 to 6 months, while
    getting an Israeli visa could have taken a year."
    
    Can anyone shed light on this? Is this a Soviet restriction or
    an Israeli problem?
    
    Jem
    

 >   getting an Israeli visa could have taken a year."
    
    I think they mean "a Soviet visa to emigrate to Israel".
    In the SU, one needs an EXIT visa. In order to apply for the Soviet
    exit visa, one needs to have an Israeli immigration visa to begin
    with. It is my understanding that after one gets an Israeli visa,
    it does currently take up to 1 year to get the Soviet exit visa.
    
    Alex
    

	As far as I know, the exit permits are generally granted very fast now -
a couple of months at the longest. It does take a while to ask for - and get in
the mail the Israeli invitation. Often the post office doesn't deliver it, or
it gets stolen and destroyed, or "lost". People sometimes have to ask for another
mailing, wait again, and so on. This pre-application process is now quite a bit
longer than just waiting for the exit visa - though I can't see how it'd be
faster through Sweden... The one-year figure leads me to believe that it's the
American visa that is in question here - it does take that long and the refugees
live in USSR in the meanwhile, rather than waiting in Italy's processing centers.
For what it's worth, a small trickle of Soviet Jews has always been accepted -
and gone to Sweden. I remember in 1979, when we were waiting for the US visa,
some refugees would apply to Sweden, and a few families a year would get accepted.

DG

    According to a friend of ours who is working with Soviet emigrees,
    the  current  bottleneck is getting Israeli immigration visas. The
    Soviets will provide an exit visa, but the Soviet Jews can't enter
    any of the countries that are stopping points to Israel without an
    Israeli entrance visa.  

    I can  neither  understand  nor  justify Israel causing delays for
    Soviet  Jews  whose chance of leaving the Soviet Union my not last
    long.

--David

.18>    According to a friend of ours who is working with Soviet emigrees,
.18>    the  current  bottleneck is getting Israeli immigration visas.

Your friend's information may already be out of date.  During this past
weekend, over 5000 Soviet Jews were flown into Israel over a 48-hour period.


.18>    I can  neither  understand  nor  justify Israel causing delays for
.18>    Soviet  Jews  whose chance of leaving the Soviet Union my not last
.18>    long.

It is unclear whether or not any delays are caused by Israeli officialdom.  If
they are, it is bureaucratic inefficiency at dealing with the unexpected
increase in the rate of Jews able to leave the USSR.  Hopefully, the above-
mentioned airlift indicates that any such delays are behind us.