Conference taveng::bagels

    
    
    	There was a review of this in the NEW YORK TIMES BOOK REVIEW last
    Sunday.

    Re .0:
    
    What price class are they in?
    
    Mark

re: .0 I just got a copy of Vol I last nite for Chanukah; thanks to your
recommendation, I will definitely buy the Ref Vol as well.

re: .2 If I am not mistaken, each is around $40 (Aaron, is that right?).  As
mentioned above, I got mine as a gift, but I've seen some advertisements...

Waky

p.s. My copy will be "living" at the Beth Elohim Library in Acton, if anyone
would like to check it out in person before making an investment for themselves.
I'm ususally there on Sunday mornings during Hebrew school (after the upcoming
holiday vacation).  Send mail if you'd like to be sure I'm there to stop by
(or call there - 263-3061).

Waky

    The first two volumes are $40.00 each.  Whether this price continues to
    hold probably depends on demand and inflation.

                                                Aaron

    Given that Bava Metzia is issued in more than one volume, this set
    could be more than 40 volumes when complete (certainly more than
    $1000).  Frankly, I can't imagine a more worthwhile investment.  My
    only hopes are that Steinsaltz lives to complete the project and that I
    will have the patience to wait that long (I will, of course, purchase
    each volume as it becomes available).  Few rabbis since the Rambam have
    made Talmud as accessible to the masses as Adin Steinsaltz has.

    Either Booksmith or Barnes and Noble have it for $32.  Call ahead.
    
    Av

Re: .8

>    What is a good English Torah with Hebrew in it to read?

Aryeh Kaplan's The Living Torah, Maznaim P. H.

Jem

I am not sure I'm the right one to answer this, but those who are able to quote
chapter and verse from the Talmud have already begun to prepare for Shabbat
today.

The Talmud is a compilation of Jewish law. Part of it is the "oral" law in
written form. Part of it is commentary on the law, both "oral" and "torah".
Part of it is commentary on the commentary. I don't know a whole lot of the
contents myself, but I gather it comes in 40 (?) volumes. Some of it dates back
to the time of the Babylonian exile when the Jewish leaders decided to write
some of the oral stuff down before it got lost.

It reminds me of a lawyer's bookshelf, and has something of the same flavor.
One would require post-graduate studies to begin to understand it all.
One of the important differences between the law as recorded in the Talmud and
ordinary civil law compendia, is that in documenting the debates on the law
the Talmud records all positions taken, not just the ones that were adjudged
correct. Minority positions are not necessarily wrong.

At various times and places some Jews considered Torah and Talmud as the only
things worth studying.

Dave

Re: .12

Some corrections and elaborations:

The Talmud is called the Oral Law, as opposed to the Torah, or Written Law. 
Many believe that the Oral Law was given at Mount Sinai along with the Torah,
but only the Torah was written down.  The rest was passed from generation to
generation orally until after the 5th century, when it was finally recorded.
There are two versions of the Talmud, Babylonian and Jerusalem (Bavli and
Yerushalmi respectively).  It is the Babylonian Talmud that is most commonly
studied.

The text of the Talmud is composed of several parts:

1.  Mishnah.  This was the first commentary on the Torah and was written down
    in the 5th or 6th century CE.  There are six "orders" (volumes)  of the
    Mishnah.  The orders are subdivided into much shorter sections (sorry, I
    don't know what they're called), ranging in size from a  few sentences to
    perhaps a page or two.  In a standard Talmud, the text is printed using
    standard Hebrew characters, but without vowels.

2.  Gemarrah.  This is a commentary both on the Torah and on the Mishnah.
    Each section of Mishnah is followed by the corresponding section of
    the Gemarrah.  This is also printed in using standard Hebrew characters
    without vowels.  I believe that there are 36 tractates of Gemarrah.

3.  Rashi.  Rashi was a prolific Talmudic scholar of the 13th century.
    His comments also appear on each page of Talmud in the inside margin
    of each page.  In a standard Talmud, Rashi's commentary is printed
    using a version of the Hebrew alphabet known as "Rashi script."
    It's kind of like a different Hebrew font.

4.  Tosefot.  The Tosefot (plural) are a group of scholars that post-date
    Rashi.  Their comments are recorded in the outside margins of each
    page.  This is also written in Rashi script.

I tacked a "map" of a page of Talmud at the end of this reply.

The text reads kind of like a meeting transcript rather than an organized code
of law.  When an issue is raised there may be many points of view presented,
each with its own justification.  It is not always intuitively obvious which
scholar's opinion or ruling is the one we use today.  That's probably the main
reason that Josef Caro recorded the Shulchan Aruch (16th century), in an
attempt to record Talmudic law in an organized fashion rather than "stream of
consciousness."

A page of Talmud is actually two sides of a sheet of paper.  References are
quoted as "Lamed-gimel amud alef" (33, side A), or "Yod-dalet amud bet" (14,
side B).  There is a standard pagination of the Talmud preserved in most
printed editions.

In the Steinsalz edition of the Talmud, the Mishnah and Gemarrah Hebrew text
appears with vowels.  The Rashi and Tosefot are printed using standard Hebrew
characters without vowels.  The pagination is different, but the orignal
numbers are printed at the top of each page.

The recommended way to study Talmud is in a "chevruta" or group of 2-3 people. 
Studying by oneself is discouraged by the Rabbis because one doesn't really
test one's knowledge and ideas unless you bounce them off of someone else. 
Questioning and arguing is definitely the thing to do.  It is not uncommon to
spend an hour discussing one sentence, or even one word.

The best way to start learning Talmud is by studying with someone who's done it
before.  As Dave said, you'd need a whole lot of post-graduate work to
understand the Talmud in all its detail, but people at all levels can learn
from studying it.

If I might paraphrase from Pirkey Avot: You don't have to finish it, but you
have to keep working at it.

Dave Srebnick


A standard page of Talmud is arranged approximately like this:

    +--------------------------------------------------------------------+
    |                 Tractate                         Page #            |
    |                                                                    |
    |  +---------------------------+  +---------------------------+      |
    |  | Rashi's commentary        |  | Tosefot                   |      |
    |  |                           |  |                           |      |
    |  |             +-------------+  +----------------+          |      |
    |  |             |  +----------------------------+ |          |      |
    |  |             |  |Mishnah text....            | |          |      |
    |  |             |  |                            | | More     |      |
    |  | More        |  |                            | | Tosefot  |      |
    |  | Rashi       |  |                            | |          |      |
    |  | Commentary  |  |                            | |          |      |
    |  |             |  |                            | |          |      |
    |  |             |  +----------------------------+ |          |      |
    |  |             |  +----------------------------+ |          |      |
    |  |             |  |Gemarrah text....           | |          |      |
    |  |             |  |                            | |          |      |
    |  |             |  |                            | |          |      |
    |  |             |  +----------------------------+ |          |      |
    |  |             +-----------+    +----------------+          |      |
    |  | Still more Rashi        |    | Still more Tosefot        |      |
    |  |       commentary        |    |                           |      |
    |  |                         |    |                           |      |
    |  +-------------------------+    +---------------------------+      |
    |                                                                    |
    +--------------------------------------------------------------------+


   

< Note 857.12 by DECSIM::GROSS "The bug stops here" >
                                  -< Talmud >-

I am not sure I'm the right one to answer this, but those who are able to quote
chapter and verse from the Talmud have already begun to prepare for Shabbat
today.

The Talmud is a compilation of Jewish law. Part of it is the "oral" law in
written form. Part of it is commentary on the law, both "oral" and "torah".
Part of it is commentary on the commentary. I don't know a whole lot of the
contents myself, but I gather it comes in 40 (?) volumes. Some of it dates back
to the time of the Babylonian exile when the Jewish leaders decided to write
some of the oral stuff down before it got lost.

It reminds me of a lawyer's bookshelf, and has something of the same flavor.
One would require post-graduate studies to begin to understand it all.
One of the important differences between the law as recorded in the Talmud and
ordinary civil law compendia, is that in documenting the debates on the law
the Talmud records all positions taken, not just the ones that were adjudged
correct. Minority positions are not necessarily wrong.

At various times and places some Jews considered Torah and Talmud as the only
things worth studying.

Dave

    I read the review of the Steinsaltz edition in the NY Times Book
    Review. The review author seemed to be complaining that the English
    commentary in the Steinsaltz edition is not a simple translation of
    Rashi and the Tosefot, but instead is "Steinsaltz on X" and "Steinsaltz
    on Y", even though the page is set up to look like regular Talmud, as
    .13 explained so well. The review was somewhat unclear, and I'm not
    sure if this is what the reviewer meant, even though I read the review
    over several times. Can someone knowledgeable who has read
    the review and/or looked at the new edition comment on this?
    
    --Dan
    
    (Steinsaltz really did his writing in Hebrew, which has been translated to
    English.)

Re: .13

One correction: 

2.  Gemarrah.  This is a commentary both on the Torah and on the Mishnah.
    Each section of Mishnah is followed by the corresponding section of
    the Gemarrah.  This is also printed in using standard Hebrew characters
    without vowels.  I believe that there are 36 tractates of Gemarrah.

>>>> There are 63 tractates in the Talmud, not 36.

Shalom Dan,

I understood the review to say that Steinsaltz's commentary and explanation had
too religious (and therefore unscholarly) of a perspective.  I did not take this
to mean that the translations were inaccurate or biased.

Gavriel

    RE: 857.13

    A very good description, and I know this is kind of picky, but...

>1.  Mishnah.  This was the first commentary on the Torah and was written down
>    in the 5th or 6th century CE.

    Perhaps you were thinking of the Gemara when you gave the date.  The
    official written version of the Mishna (the one we have now) was
    completed at the end of the second century.  (There is some evidence
    that individual scholars had been keeping their own `notes' for some
    time before that.)  One set of commentaries was completed in Galilee
    (although it is referred to as the Yerushalmi) sometime in the next two
    centuries, and a second Gemara was completed in Babylon in the fifth
    century.  The combination of Mishna and Gemara is what we call Talmud. 
    Most printed versions of the Talmud include other, non-Talmudic
    commentaries (e.g. Rashi) as marginal notes.

>In the Steinsalz edition...The Rashi...[is] printed using standard Hebrew
>characters without vowels.

    Actually, the Rashi is printed in Rashi script, which is slightly
    different from standard characters (the Reference volume shows the
    equivalents--they aren't that difficult to learn).

                                        Aaron

re: .13

1.  Mishnah.  This was the first commentary on the Torah and was written down
    in the 5th or 6th century CE.  There are six "orders" (volumes)  of the


Mishnah was written down in 2nd century; Gemmara was more of this time-frame.

Wak

Some answers to .21:
    
    Why do some people believe the Oral Law was given at Mount Sinai?
     What I mean is, if there exsist a difference of opinion ,
     and how does this difference manifest itself in practice?

>> There does exist a difference of opinion.  

>> The difference is manifested in how "binding" the laws of the Oral
>> tradition are.  If you believe that the Oral law was given at Sinai,
>> then you believe that it is the direct expression of G-d's will.  If
>> so, then you believe that you are bound to observe all of the laws
>> of the Talmud.  Although today's rabbis can add to halacha to cover
>> new situations (such as electricity, cars), what is in the Talmud
>> stands.  For those who wish to label things, this is reflects Orthodox
>> belief and practice.

>>      If you believe that the Torah was G-d given (and/or divinely
>> inspired)  but that Oral law represents wo/man's interpretation of the
>> Written Law (the Torah), then you probably believe that suitably
>> trained modern scholars can re-interpret the Torah, just as Talmudic
>> Rabbis did centuries ago.  Changes can be made to halacha as recorded
>> in the Talmud.  One can apply historical  analysis and conclude,
>> perhaps, that some laws are not applicable  today, and others need to
>> be revised.  This reflects Conservative and Reconstructionist
>> practice.
    
    Are the Rashi and Tosefoot notes omitted in some Torah because
    some people question them?

>> Nope.  They are omitted because they're not part of the Torah.  The
>> Torah is the Hebrew text of the first five books of the Bible, aka
>> the Five Books of Moses: B'reshit (Genesis), Sh'mot (Exodus),
>> Vayikra (Leviticus), Bamidbar (Numbers) and D'varim (Deuteronomy).
>> Some printed versions of the Torah, such as the Soncino, JPS, etc.,
>> contain commentaries.  Often, they are not strictly Rashi and
>> Tosefot, but are the author's compilations and interpretations of
>> these and other commentaries.

>> You should also know that the Talmud is not a running commentary
>> of the Torah.  The Talmud records discussions of the Sages on
>> all sorts of different issues.  When a scholar wishes to prove
>> a point, he cites a verse from the Torah.

>> Rashi and others have written running commentaries on the Torah
>> but they are not the same as the ones in the Talmud.

     What are Torah scrolls ( I refer to the Scrolls in the Synagogues ) ?
    
>> A Torah scroll contains the Hebrew text of the Five Books of Moses.
>> The text is hand-written on parchment by a specially trained scribe
>> (sofer) using a special ink and a quill pen.  There are no vowels
>> and no punctuation marks.  Certain letters are decorated with
>> "crowns" when inscribed.

>>     When a sofer writes a Torah, he must exercise great care to
>> ensure that every letter and every word is correct.  He cannot
>> write a single word from memory.  Each word must be pronounced,
>> enscribed, and pronounced again.  If so much as a single letter
>> is incorrectly formed, the entire Torah is unfit for use.

>>     Synagogues customarily have service contracts on the scrolls.
>> They are periodically inspected and corrected if necessary.

Re: .21

>    Why do some people believe the Oral Law was given at Mount Sinai?

The Torah abounds with examples of _Mitzvot_, precepts, which are utterly
inexplicable according to the simple reading. One example I've cited elsewhere is
the verse from the first paragraph of the _Shema_:
(Deut. 5:8) Bind *them*as a sign on your hand, and as frontlets between your
eyes...
Bind what? What are frontlets? Without being facetious, what sort of an
emblem is referred to? Most Jews know that this refers to _tefillin_,
phylacteries, but how are they to be constructed, what are they to contain?

Lev 23:40 refers to "pri etz hadar", lit. "the fruit of a beautiful tree",
which is to be taken during the Festival of Booths. 
What sort of tree is this? Where is it found and what does it look like?
Noone would no the answer to this without the Talmud.

Deut. 12:21 : "...you need only slaughter your cattle... in the manner
that I have prescribed. You may eat them in your settlements in any manner
you desire."
What is the manner He "has prescibed"? Nowhere is _shechita_, ritual slaughter,
detailed in the Bible.

I have just outlined some of the best-known Mitzvot here. For more
references, send email.

The Torah was written very tersely, in *outline* form. The primary reason for
this is to ensure a *living tradition*, wherein practices and interpretations
would be passed orally from generation to generation, studied day and night.

With time, of course, there developed a danger of the tradition being lost,
which is when R. Judah Ha-nassi ("the prince"), decided to commit the _Mishna_
to writing, also very tersely, for the same reasons. Eventually, even this
was not enough to certify continuity, whereupon Ravina and Rav Ashi decided
to record the discussions in the Babylonian _yeshivot_ (academies), in the
form of the _Gemara_, expounding the Mishna.

>    Are the Rashi and Tosefoot notes omitted in some Torah because
>    some people question them?

Rashi was the 10th-century commentator *par excellence* of both the Bible
("Torah"), and the Talmud.
The "Tosephot" ("additional expositors"), as a previous note mentioned,
followed Rashi, and were primarily a super-commentary on his talmudic work,
often taking issue with his interpretation. Although there are some interpe-
tations of the Bible by the Tosephot extant, they are not well-known. 
The reason Rashi is not included in every (traditional) edition of the
Bible has little to do with its being questioned. It is simply *assumed*
that right after a siddur (prayer book), every Jewish home would have at least
a _Chumash_ with Rashi. 

Re: .22

> Although today's rabbis can add to halacha to cover
> new situations (such as electricity, cars), what is in the Talmud
> stands.

Not "add to"; apply.

> For those who wish to label things, this is reflects Orthodox
> belief and practice.

A significant segment of the Conservative rabbinate claim to hold the
Talmud to be binding, as well.

Jem

Re: .24

>    Why are the vowels omitted from the Torah Scrolls?

The vowel sign are a much later addition to the written Hebrew language. In
standard Hebrew script, even today, as well as in modern Hebrew books and
rabbinical texts, the text is not vocalized. Once a person learns to read
Hebrew, the pronuciation is usually obvious (ths s gnrlly tr fr nglsh, s wll).

>    Are the crowns added to some letters part of Hebrew,
>    if not why are they added?
 
Rabbi Akiva was capable of expounding the reason for each and every jot and
tittle in the Pentateuch. The reasons are mainly mystical.

>    Did Rashi originate the Rashi script?

No. It was a commonly used rabbinic script in medieval Europe. Rashi 
popularized it.

Jem

In Hebrew (and other Semitic languages such as Arabic for that matter) the
vowels are not written. The vowels were invented about 1000 years ago (someone
will jump in with the exact date etc. I'm sure) so that readers such as myself
who read at a sub-kindergarten level could pronounce all the words anyway. A
Semitic root usually consists of three consonents (no vowels of course).
Prefixes, suffixes, and other internal changes are made to get different derived
meanings. Often the vowel sounds differ considerably among the variant forms. An
educated reader recognizes the prefixes, root, suffixes, etc. and knows how to
pronounce the word -- I need help from the vowels.

The vowels in Hebrew are not really letters as they are in English. True, there
are semi-vowel letters (yud=Y, vav=OH or OO or V or maybe even W), but the
vowels we are talking about are little dots or dashes over or under the
consonents. Since these were not present in the orginal Torah we cannot have
them now. I understand that some phrases in the Torah are ambiguous due to the
absence of vowels. To add vowels would remove the ambiguity and that, in its own
way, would change the meaning of the Torah. By the way, the Tetragrammaton (the
4-letter name of G-d) consists of all semivowels and aspirants (H-sounds) making
it almost unpronouncable even if we knew what the original vowel sounds were.

Ancient Hebrew was written without spaces between the words. We can be thankful
that tradition was not preserved.

I have no information about letter-crowns or Rashi script. I hope someone
explains why Rashi bothered to invent it because I can't think of a reason.

Dave