Conference taveng::bagels

    If it mattered to the Jewish scouts, they or their parents would have
    told you.  Of course, those who didn't want to "rock the boat" or stand
    out might not have informed you. One way is to make clear in your
    announcements about these kinds of events that if anyone has any
    dietary needs (allergies, vegetarianism, etc. ) they should contact
    you.  That will let those who are concerned feel free to make
    arrangements.
    
    ---Av

    Re .1:
    
    Thanks for the info. As I mentioned, I noticed the "problem" but
    wasn't sure how to address it and I think the people most affected
    probably didn't want to rock the boat as you said (although
    I can't be sure how they addressed it because I left pretty early before
    they had breakfast).
    
    At least I made a mental note to make a BAGELS entry......given
    my memory, that's an achievement in itself!
    
    Thanks again.
    
    Mark

    It really isn't hard to make kosher trail breakfasts. Pancakes are
    fine, instant oatmeal is my favorite, and I'm sure you can come up
    with  other alternatives. Meat isn't a particularly good meal just
    before excercise anyway.

    Dinners aren't  any  harder.  Milk  is  hard  to transport, so you
    probably won't be serving milk with dinner anyway, so you can have
    either  milk or meat meals. Maccaroni and cheese (or some variant)
    is an old standby, canned beef stew is another.

    Your real  problem  is  getting  people  to  think  about  dietary
    restrictions.

--David

    Honest:
    
    I sometimes ask, before going onto a flight, for a 'kosher' menu.
    It very often turns out to be much richer and better cooked than
    the 'mass' dish.
    
    Pragmatically yours,
    
    Chris

Mark:
"THE" person you want to ask about kosher (and sabbath observant) scouting is
VIA::SPIELMAN (Howard "the Kosher Eagle" Spielman). I assisted him at 
my son's Boy Scout camp last summer (10 Mile River), and we even put up
an Eruv!
-ZAITCH

    Re .5:
    
    Thanks, Zaitch.....he was very helpful to me last year with another
    Scouting issue I was dealing with at the time.
    
    I sent him mail again recently but he hasn't gotten back to me yet.
    I think someone told me he's super busy right now.
    
    I realize the only dumb question is the one that wasn't asked
    but.....what's an Eruv?
    
    Regards,
    
    Mark

An Eruv is a boundary which defines your home territory. On Shabbat, one is not
supposed to carry anything outside your home. An Eruv is a kind of Halachic
legal fiction. I believe there is an Eruv surrounding the entire town of
Brookline. Without a legal fiction such as this, a couple would not be able to
leave home with a baby on Shabbat.

I believe an Eruv must be marked by something physical but need not be more than
a string strung between the tops of telephone poles.

I learned this from back issues of Bagels.

Dave

    There's no eruv in Brookline, although one has reputedly been in the
    works for a number of years.

    Re .5:
    
    Check me out on my understanding of this, Zaitch.....if an Eruv
    had not been enacted (I don't know if that's the right verb), then
    none of the scouts could have left their tents on Shabbat with anything
    in hand. Did I get that right?
    
    And now a digression.....
    
    The legal aspects of Judaism to a newcomer, like myself, at first
    appear "superfluous" - please understand all that I'm describing
    an uneducated person's (religously speaking) view. After all, it
    seems like an awful lot of bother just to put up some artificial
    boundary so an obscure point of a Law written 4000 years ago can be
    observed.
    
    It does..... until, with a little more education, the newcomer comes
    to the realization that if the Law is the central core of Judaism,
    then an Eruv is not just a legal nicety but rather by extension
    an indispensable part of that central core.
    
    Just wanted to express a newcomer's observation....hope nobody minds.
    
    Mark

Re: .9

> 							After all, it
>    seems like an awful lot of bother just to put up some artificial
>    boundary so an obscure point of a Law written 4000 years ago can be
>    observed.

>    It does..... until, with a little more education, the newcomer comes
>    to the realization that if the Law is the central core of Judaism,
>    then an Eruv is not just a legal nicety but rather by extension
>    an indispensable part of that central core.

Quite refreshing to hear your point of view, Mark. On the one hand, you
ask questions that deserve to be asked, on the other you keep an open
mind, realizing that there might be more to the Law than meets the eye
at first blush. 

Most people who have seriously studied the Law (Oral and Written) have
experienced a sense of "revelation" even when reviewing passages 
read many times before. The Torah can (for the most part) be understood
on a simple level, but there are always new interpretations which come
to light when studied properly. 

I've purposely avoided treating the specific issue you've raised, mainly
because I haven't the time now, and because the topic is quite involved.
The first part of the Hillel anecdote quoted elsewhere in Bagels (the
rest is commentary) is quite well known, but he did not stop there.
Hillel said, "Love thy neighbor as thyself, all the rest is commentary...
*now go and STUDY*. This indeed sums up the Torah - although certain
portions reveal to us the overall thrust of G-d's Will, that by no
means releases us from our obligation to better understand and fulfill
those passages which appear less palatable.

Jem

    Re .10:
    
    Thanks, Jem.
    
    Not to stray too far but I hear various and sundry opinions on how the
    Law defines do's and don'ts for Shabbat....for example, some people
    regard turning on a light or starting a car as a violation of the
    rules on not starting fires or working on Shabbat.
    
    No doubt this topic has been touched on previously and hopefully
    without getting an "orthodox vs. reform" argument started, is the
    reluctance to turn on electric lights on Shabbat realistic?
    
    Thanks.
    
    Mark

In fact, observant Orthodox Jews don't turn on lights on Shabbat.
However, they are permitted to have lights turned on and off by a timer. Also
lights can be turned on prior to the onset of Shabbat and kept on until the
following evening. Almost any electrical device can be run by a timer
on Shabbat - elevators, refrigerators, water heater - so that no action by the
user actually increases or decreases the electrical energy consumption.

The custom of lighting candles on Friday night arose because, in the old days,
if you didn't light them before sundown, you'd be left in the dark that night.

Dave

    Re .12:
    
    Thanks for sharing that, Dave.
    
    Now a follow-on if that's OK.....are observant Jews locked-in (no
    pun intended) with respect to transportation to shul? That is, while
    a timer can eliminate the human element in turning on lights,
    appliances, or whatever, how does one get to shul if starting the
    internal combustion engine of an automobile constitutes making a
    fire? Walking is a possible alternative but would public transporation
    be OK or is there some way legally to address that issue?
    
    This has probably been covered before but I figure if I don't ask,
    how will I know?
    
    Thanks again.
    
    Mark

Re: .13

> 			how does one get to shul if starting the
>    internal combustion engine of an automobile constitutes making a
>    fire? 

This is a tough one, and in fact this is why most observant Jews live
within walking distance of a synagogue. This of course, might not be an
immediate solution, but there might be other alternatives as a stop-gap
measure:

A) If there are other people in the area of a like mind, you might be able to
   set up a *minyan* yourselves in part of someone's house, possibly alternating
   locations periodically. A Torah scroll would probably not be available,
   but the service could proceed without it.

B) If less than a quorum of ten is available, you can still pray together,
   some parts of the service not being dependant on a minyan. 

You should (you probably have already) contact a local sympathetic synagogue
(one that won't think you're crazy for not driving to IT!), for some suggest-
ions. There have been cases of Torah scrolls, and even *people* "lent out"
in this kind of situation. Let us know where you are geographically if
references are needed.

Jem

    Walking is really the only alternative (which is one reason that
    orthodox Jews tend to live in geographically compact communities).

    One problem with public transportation is that you generally have
    to pay for it, and handling money is forbidden.  Even if public
    transportation is free, there are other problems.  Perhaps another
    noter can explain what they are.

I am going to get myself in trouble here, but so what? Work that is forbidden
on Shabbat is not supposed to be done via an agent. It isn't exactly kosher for
the bus driver to step on the gas pedal on your behalf. But my understanding
of the law is fuzzy. There is a person called the "Shabbos goy", a non-Jew whose
job it is to turn off the lights (maybe sweep the floor?) after services on
Friday night. I can't imagine what makes this legal -- I think it is a case of
another legal fiction where the person is paid for some minor function during
the week, and although it isn't in his/her job description, nobody would object
if the lights got turned off you-know-when.

Your animals are forbidden to do work so riding a horse to Shul is also out.
However, mechanical agents were never mentioned and are OK.

It is my cynical observation that Orthodox shuls have no parking lots and the
congregants park arround the corner; Conservative shuls have no parking lots
but the congregants park out front; Reform shuls have parking lots.

Dave

Re: .16

I don't feel this is the proper forum for halachic responsa, nor
am I qualified to do so. That said, I will try to give my understanding
of some of these issues in outline form. As was mentioned elsewhere, it
is of critical importance for anyone authentically caring about halacha
to establish a working relationship with an authority in these matters.

> It isn't exactly kosher for
> the bus driver to step on the gas pedal on your behalf.

Numerous halachic problems are involved in traveling on Shabbat. There 
are different concerns regarding cars, busses, trains, horses, and other
means of transportation. Factors to be considered (this assumes someone else
is actually in the driver's seat, and that he is not driving specifically
for you):

1) Is extra fuel being burned due to my presence?

2) Is there payment involved?

3) How far am I traveling (tchum Shabbat)?

4) Even if the first three are not problems (*highly* unlikely!)
   there is still the issue of mar'eit ha'eyin, others seeing the
   traveling take place and assuming *all* transportation is O.K.

This is by no means a comprehensive list, but these issues alone render
almost all transportation next to impossible on Shabbat.

> There is a person called the "Shabbos goy", a non-Jew whose
> job it is to turn off the lights (maybe sweep the floor?) after services on
> Friday night. 

As usual, several issues involved:

1) Is the Gentile performing actual *melacha* (halachically defined work)?
   For instance, in the case of sweeping the floors, assuming the services
   are not held in a mud-hut, there is no melacha involved: you could even
   sweep the floor yourself.

2) Payment for work: the principle in this case is *havla'a*, paying for
   work done at times other than Shabbat together with services rendered
   on that day. This means he must do some work during the week, and be paid
   a weekly (or yearly) salary. BTW, a similar problem exists for the chazzan,
   rabbi, ba'al keriah (Torah reader), etc. In some cases, what is paid for
   is the time put in preparing for the performance, during which other work
   could have been done. If this is not applicable, the individual must render
   a service during a weekday and be paid b'havla'a, as above.

3) Lights: Since this is considered actual melacha, my understanding is that
   it cannot be stipulated that the Gentile do this. If he does it without
   being asked, there is nothing wrong.

>Your animals are forbidden to do work so riding a horse to Shul is also out.

There is no melacha involved in riding a horse. The Talmud forbids it for
ancillary reasons (other melachot that might be performed in connection with
the riding.)

Of course, the real question here, before discussing such nitty-gritty details
is: why all the restrictions on Shabbat in the first place? Isn't it supposed
to be a day of rest? It seems to create many more problems, actually making the
day *harder* than a regular day.

I heard a beautiful analogy one time. Imagine you are standing next to a big
wrought-iron fence, protecting a beautiful botanical garden. If one focuses
his attention exclusively on the fence, he could actually think that he's in
prison. If he would but turn around, however, he could enter the lovely garden,
and eventually he would realize that the fence is only there to protect the
exquisite flora inside. 

This is Shabbat - the atmosphere simply can't be reproduced in everyday
circumstances. It is Me'en Olam Ha'ba, a little taste of paradise, and as
such differs in every way from our humdrum existence. 

Some time after I heard this explanation, I was driving past the New York
Botanical Garden. To my utter amazement, someone commented on the
wonderful *wrought iron fence*, how these gates are simply not produced
anymore! There's a lesson in there somewhere.

>>> 3) Lights: Since this is considered actual melacha, my 
>>>    understanding is that it cannot be stipulated that the Gentile 
>>>    do this. If he does it without being asked, there is nothing wrong.

Right.

The issue is whether the Gentile was asked to do the labor ON SHABBAT
specifically, or whether you told him to do it any time and s/he chose to do it
on Shabbat.

Two cases:

1.  If you gave a non-Jewish TV repairman your TV on a Thursday and told
    him that you needed it on Monday, he could fix it on Thurs, Fri,
    Sat, or Sunday.  In this case, working on Shabbat is permitted.

2.  If you told your custodian that s/he should turn the lights on 
    for Friday evening services, off afterwards, and on again on Shabbat
    morning, you would be violating the law.

    If your contract with the custodian stipulated that the lights need to be
    on for the Friday evening and Shabbat morning services, but it did not
    specify when the custodian was to actually turn the lights on and off,
    it would be permitted for him/her to do it on Shabbat.

A Gentile is not permitted to perform work for a Jew on Shabbat in a public
area.  Even if you had a contract that fit the above criteria, a Gentile 
would not be permitted to, e.g., mow your lawn on Shabbat, or paint your house,
or do any other "melacha" in a place where it would be obvious that a Gentile
was doing work specifically for a Jew.

Having your [Gentile] chauffeur drive you to synagogue is not a way of getting
around walking.

    Good note.