| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 807.1 | I'm still here... | SMVDV1::JGILON | | Thu Oct 19 1989 14:04 | 9 |
| Thx for responding and escalating up the all issue (I think I had the
"chootzpa" enough to start with it).
I would like to answer your questions and to clarify where I'm coming from
and about some of my thoughts (I was trying to concentrate on some kind of
facts in my previous responses), but I don't have the time right know.
So please, stay tuned .
Jacob
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| 807.2 | A reply to a reply | SMVDV1::JGILON | | Mon Oct 23 1989 12:04 | 101 |
| Thx for waiting (if at all).
I would like to start my response by the stating that I wasn't and am not
trying to be any "shaliach alia" (or "shaliach yerida") or trying to tell
anyone what's right or wrong or should he be doing .
I was responding (may be a little bit too aggressively) to a reply about the
relationship between Israel and growing antisemitism in USA and by that
attempting to focus on some of the basic issues that according to my opinion
should upset or at least concern any Jew whether he is in "TAVland" , "Uncle
Sam land" or somewhere else.
I'm not sure that my personnel history has anything to do with the current
discussion, but in order to satisfy the curiosity of some of the readers (at
least those who responded to me) I will talk to it at the end my reply.
If you don't mind I would like to elaborate on some of the issues from a
different and may be more broader prospective.
The following are some important facts about the current Jewish world:
o We are now almost 100 years after the first Zionist congress,45 years after
the holocaust, and 41 years after the foundation of ISRAEL,
o less then 30% of the Jewish people lives in Israel (more then half of them
are from Sepharadic origin), Aprox 5-6 Mil lives in U.S (most of them from
European origin), around 2-2.5 lives in Russia and 1 to 1.5 million
elsewhere in the world.
o Most of the Jews are nonreligious -- by that I mean unorthodox because I
think that the Conservatives Reforms and "Seculars" are in the same
category, all of them don't follow the "Halacha" and are subject to
assimilation -- and there is a growing assimilation among those who lives
in the Diaspora (according to one statistic that I read 50% of the
college graduates in the US intermarry).
Some people call this process the second Holocaust and predict that the
Jewish people will decreased by 2-3 Mill. within the next two decades.
o The Jewish community in Israel has been struggling for its survival during
the last 70 Years! it is almost four generations in a row (see my personnel
background later on) and there is no solution to this struggle in the
foreseeable future.
o If we include the so called "Occupied Territories" within Israel (and they
are at least De Facto within), since 1984 there are more new born Arab
children then Jewish and within 20 to 30 thirty years the population within
the "Great Israel" territory will consist of almost 50% Arabs(assuming
that the current rate of "alia" and "yerida" will persist).
o There are much more "yordim" from Israel to America than "olim" on the
opposite direction . According to one article that I have read in an Israeli
paper most of the "yordim" in the recent years are "secular" and well
educated and most of the "olim" are religious (and probably as well educated).
o Around 90% of the Jews who leave Russia prefer to immigrate to
America rather than to Israel.
o There is growing Antisemitism in the Diaspora including in the birthplace of
modern Democracy and even in relatively liberal and tolerant state such as
Massachusetts.
What all of these mean? I am really not sure, maybe I have stressed the "half
empty glass but this I think is the more important one for the purpose of this
discussion, and may maybe I wasn't 100% accurate about my figures, but it
doesn't change the big picture.
One thing is almost certain to me - the "Jewish Dilemma" still exist, acute,
painful, and very complicated for those who choose to remain Jews.
I wish I were orthodox and as such have answers to most of "my Jewish
dilemmas" (they always have some explanation for everything) but as you probably
understand, I am not, such are the majority of the Jewish people.
What I would really hope is that every one will be able to make his own
"heshbon nefesh" and determine what is the right thing to do (I have already
done mine and for the time being wouldn't like to share it with the readers of
this conference).
As I've promised before here is in short some highlights of my family
background:
I'm an Israeli citizen who lives now in the US (I'm not a permanent resident or
in the "process", but have lived here all together almost 5 years within the
last decade).
I'm a seven generations Israeli born (from my father side). My Grandfather was
born in the old city of Jerusalem and was killed with one of his sons
while serving in the 'Hagana" (which he joined in 1921) during the battle
on Jerusalem in 1948 (his other son was killed serving in the American
army during WW II). My father who was born in "Mea Shearim" joined the
"Hagana" when he was 16 year old and is still serving in the Border Police
(at the age of 66).
I served 12 years (not as a Pilot) of full service at the Israeli Air Force
and 5 years in the reserves.
My oldest son might join the IDF within 4 Years.
My wife is a daughter of Holocaust survivors.
Again, I'm not not trying to play the "Gibor" (the lines between brave, naive
and stupid is some time very vague), and may be this is not a typical history
of an Israeli Jewish Family but there are many like this.
Jacob
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| 807.3 | (restate the obvious)+(mix with demagoguery)=GIGO | TALLIS::GOYKHMAN | Nostalgia ain't what it used to be | Mon Oct 23 1989 12:46 | 5 |
| Besides the fact that the "Jewish Dilemma" exists, the
interesting personal life, and the compilation of questionable facts
and even more dubious assumptions, so what?
DG
|
| 807.4 | ok and... | TAZRAT::CHERSON | labouring under an assumption | Mon Oct 23 1989 14:37 | 75 |
| >Thx for waiting (if at all).
>I would like to start my response by the stating that I wasn't and am not
>trying to be any "shaliach alia" (or "shaliach yerida") or trying to tell
>anyone what's right or wrong or should he be doing .
Why not? You would probably do a better job at shlichut than those that are
sent over here for a two-three year "hofesh".
>I was responding (may be a little bit too aggressively) to a reply about the
>relationship between Israel and growing antisemitism in USA and by that
>attempting to focus on some of the basic issues that according to my opinion
>should upset or at least concern any Jew whether he is in "TAVland" , "Uncle
>Sam land" or somewhere else.
You don't have to apologize for your "aggresiveness", I understand it more
than you think.
>The following are some important facts about the current Jewish world:
o We are now almost 100 years after the first Zionist congress,45 years after
the holocaust, and 41 years after the foundation of ISRAEL,
o less then 30% of the Jewish people lives in Israel (more then half of them
are from Sepharadic origin), Aprox 5-6 Mil lives in U.S (most of them from
European origin), around 2-2.5 lives in Russia and 1 to 1.5 million
elsewhere in the world.
>>I hope that we are not looking for an "Ashkenazi balance in population".
o Most of the Jews are nonreligious -- by that I mean unorthodox because I
think that the Conservatives Reforms and "Seculars" are in the same
category, all of them don't follow the "Halacha" and are subject to
assimilation -- and there is a growing assimilation among those who lives
in the Diaspora (according to one statistic that I read 50% of the
college graduates in the US intermarry).
Some people call this process the second Holocaust and predict that the
Jewish people will decreased by 2-3 Mill. within the next two decades.
>>I always like to refer to it as the "silent holocaust". It's not fair to
lump Conservative, Reform, and secular in the same boat. I don't want to
open up the old rathole topic again, but Conservatives and most Reform Jews
are not planning any cooperation in the Jewish community's demise.
> oIf we include the so called "Occupied Territories" within Israel (and they
are at least De Facto within), since 1984 there are more new born Arab
children then Jewish and within 20 to 30 thirty years the population within
the "Great Israel" territory will consist of almost 50% Arabs(assuming
that the current rate of "alia" and "yerida" will persist).
Just for the sake of statistics let's not include the territories. We
already know the potential there for out-populating Jews.
> oThere are much more "yordim" from Israel to America than "olim" on the
opposite direction . According to one article that I have read in an Israeli
paper most of the "yordim" in the recent years are "secular" and well
educated and most of the "olim" are religious (and probably as well educated).
I have seen a strange trend lately in that more religious yordim seem to be
appearing on the scene. It used to be assumed that datiim wouldn't leave
because of lack of facilities for their lifestyle, but that seems to have
changed.
> oAround 90% of the Jews who leave Russia prefer to immigrate to
America rather than to Israel.
Wrong note for this discussion.
> oThere is growing Antisemitism in the Diaspora including in the birthplace of
modern Democracy and even in relatively liberal and tolerant state such as
Massachusetts.
True, there may be more isolated incidents these days, but you will never
find any organized anti-semitism in the U.S.
--David
|
| 807.5 | | SMVDV1::JGILON | | Tue Oct 24 1989 13:51 | 64 |
| Re .3
> Besides the fact that the "Jewish Dilemma" exists, the
> interesting personal life, and the compilation of questionable facts
> and even more dubious assumptions, so what?
>>I think that the difference between .3 and .4 reflects the difference between
those who experienced the "Israeli experience" the hard way and those who
experienced it through the network, and may be there are some other basic
differences. I don't know you DG and I prefer not to argue with E-MAIL node.
Re .4
>Why not? You would probably do a better job at shlichut than those that are
>sent over here for a two-three year "hofesh".
>>Thx for the compliment but I probably don't belong right now the the right
party.
>I hope that we are not looking for an "Ashkenazi balance in population".
>> I will try to ward it "kindly" like this: In my opinion the fact that
the Sephradic are the majority in Israel, helps to maintain a political
environment in which the right wing has the control. This will probably
might lead to a situation in which the Arab population will outnumber
the Jewish within few years.
>I always like to refer to it as the "silent holocaust". It's not fair to
lump Conservative, Reform, and secular in the same boat. I don't want to
open up the old rathole topic again, but Conservatives and most Reform Jews
are not planning any cooperation in the Jewish community's demise.
>> I'm sure that they are not planning to, but they are very Vulnerable
much much more than the Orthodox.
>Just for the sake of statistics let's not include the territories. We
already know the potential there for out-populating Jews.
>>See my reply about the "Ashkenazim and Sepharadim".
>I have seen a strange trend lately in that more religious yordim seem to be
appearing on the scene. It used to be assumed that datiim wouldn't leave
because of lack of facilities for their lifestyle, but that seems to have
changed.
>>that's interesting and is not what is told in Israel.
> oAround 90% of the Jews who leave Russia prefer to immigrate to
America rather than to Israel.
>Wrong note for this discussion.
>> I think it belongs because it shows once again that the American Jewish
community is competing very successfully with Israel on the rare
resources of the World Jews (except for the Ethiopians Jews).
>True, there may be more isolated incidents these days, but you will never
find any organized anti-Semitism in the U.S.
>> It is probably true, but in my opinion anti-Semitism is an integral element
of western civilization and just for the sake of argument what do think
will happen if someone like Jessy Jackson will be elected
( it is not Hypothetical case, and I know that "many of his best friends
are Jews")
Jacob
|
| 807.6 | | HPSRAD::KIRK | Matt Kirk -- 297-6370 | Tue Oct 24 1989 13:53 | 10 |
| re -.1
>>True, there may be more isolated incidents these days, but you will never
>>find any organized anti-semitism in the U.S.
What kind do you mean? There are a number of anti-semitic (organized) groups
roaming about. True, most of them are not solely anti-semitic (anti-everyone-
but-themselves, for the most part).
Examples include the KKK, the Aryan Nation-style organizations, etc.
|
| 807.7 | How are you specifying the database | MELTIN::dick | Gvriel::Schoeller | Tue Oct 24 1989 15:19 | 12 |
| David,
>>True, there may be more isolated incidents these days, but you will never
>>find any organized anti-semitism in the U.S.
I think a better way to state this is there are few organized anti-semitic
organizations in the US and there power is far less than their numbers
would indicate. In other words, the open, organized anti-semites are in
the "lunatic fringe".
L'hit,
Gavriel
|
| 807.8 | I would rather pool insights, than argue them | TALLIS::GOYKHMAN | Nostalgia ain't what it used to be | Tue Oct 24 1989 15:23 | 15 |
| I have to apologize, my .3 reply to JGilon is quite rude. I
actually meant to express something like an impatience - I didn't
really see a statement of position in .2, and it was intended more
like a "Nu, what do you mean to say?"
Having said that, I have a different perspective on the three
main legs of today's Jewry. I grew up in Russia, immigrated to US,
have been to Israel, and my wife is an Israeli. I also try to follow
the news and politics closely in all three societies ( to the best
of my meager ability :-). Thus, I don't think my opinions on the
overall picture are any less valid than anyone else's. While you,
JGilon, are clearly much more of an expert on Israel than I could
ever hope to be, I am not sure you can see the rest of world Jewry
quite as clearly as a Diaspora Jew...
DG
|
| 807.9 | I'm not an expert, just a thinking ordinary man | SMVDV1::JGILON | | Tue Oct 24 1989 16:45 | 13 |
| Re : .8
> like a "Nu, what do you mean to say?"
> ever hope to be, I am not sure you can see the rest of world Jewry
quite as clearly as a Diaspora Jew...
Thx for clarifieng where you come from, I think it makes a significant
difference, anyhow I left the "NU" for open discussion deliberately also
because of the fact that you might be right and I don't fully understand the
world Jewry and the Diaspora Jew . I'm making an effort to understand it
(from a close distance) for almost five years (not in a row) but I'm
probably not an expert and I will be happy if someone will help me (truly).
Jacob
|